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Onkyo TX-NR818 "official" owner's thread discussion - Page 152

post #4531 of 7019
1/27/13 at 8:34am
Thread Starter 
Not everyone sees the problem. You could have 10 people in a room watching the screen and only 1 or 2 of them (or maybe zero) would notice it.

However if you are a person that notices it, it is annoying... and then, you kind of can't STOP seeing it.

It is rather surprising to me that Onkyo North America continues to report that they can't see it and don't even understand what "fixing" it does for the picture... seeing as they are doing support for audio and video you would think they would be pretty good at spotting things like this.
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post #4532 of 7019
1/27/13 at 8:35am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Butny View Post

After we get the VP worked out I wonder if we can get Onkyo to release a firmware package upgrade, which would include Audyssey Sub EQ HT. Denon released a firmware upgrade package a few years ago for $100 that included Audyssey Dynamic EQ along with other upgrade features.

If the two sub outs on the 818 are wired together (as it looks like they might be) then that would not be possible. If someone wants to take their 818 apart and take a photo of where those jacks are soldered onto the main board, I can tell you if that is even possible or not.
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post #4533 of 7019
1/27/13 at 8:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post

If the two sub outs on the 818 are wired together (as it looks like they might be) then that would not be possible. If someone wants to take their 818 apart and take a photo of where those jacks are soldered onto the main board, I can tell you if that is even possible or not.


Your probably right, I was hoping it was not hardware related.
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post #4534 of 7019
1/27/13 at 9:08am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Murphy View Post

That's what intrigues me...that relatively few people notice this in other Onkyo AVR's.
I realize that there was some discussion as far back as the 606 but what of all the 3xxx and 5xxx, the flagship receivers of the last few years, how could they not also be affected, seeing that they share the same VP as many of the mid-lines as they do in the current 818.

When this bug was first found and being posted about incessantly here, by the more evangelical members, I thought that it was simply a minor quirk somewhat akin to the lack of gapless playback (which probably affects less than .000001% of recordings ever made) and one that many people never observed and was simply limited to a small group of purists who were like the kid in "The 6th Sense", but instead of dead people they saw dropped frames, and I really wished they would have just bought 3010/5010 receivers instead and clutter up that thread.

But I was wrong and I now thank them for their efforts and perseverance to get Onkyo to step up and at least acknowledge the problem and work to find a fix.

Well done.

I contacted Hometheater Magazine a few weeks ago and politely asked them if they can PLEASE test all future Onkyo/Integra reviews for the VP bug. I hope they listen and not brush it off to the side. I believe all Magazine/ online reviewers owe to their subscribers and online readers to thoroughly test ALL aspects of the product. Hometheater Magazine has a Top Picks section and Onkyo/Integra are always listed, they owe it to EVERYONE to now thoroughly test the VP section on all equipment.
Edited by Mike Butny - 1/27/13 at 9:22am
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post #4535 of 7019
1/27/13 at 9:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Butny View Post

Your probably right, I was hoping it was not hardware related.

Even if it wouldn't be hardware related, Sub EQ HT doesn't necessarily create better results. At such low frequencies the room dictates what is heard.
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post #4536 of 7019
1/27/13 at 9:46am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Butny View Post

I contacted Hometheater Magazine a few weeks ago and politely asked them if they can PLEASE test all future Onkyo/Integra reviews for the VP bug. I hope they listen and not brush it off to the side. I believe all Magazine/ online reviewers owe to their subscribers and online readers to thoroughly test ALL aspects of the product. Hometheater Magazine has a Top Picks section and Onkyo/Integra are always listed, they owe it to EVERYONE to now thoroughly test the VP section on all equipment.

I thought it was determined and proven that this bug doesnt affect just Onkyo?

It affects at least a few other video sources with the QDEO chip, no? Even some HTPC setups (cant find the link for that but I know there is a post somewhere about it on AVSForum)

Good on Onkyo for fixing it....I have to wonder if their hardware/firmware was the source of the issue, or if they needed to workaround an issue from something that isnt theirs.
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post #4537 of 7019
1/27/13 at 10:22am
Would it be possible that the new firmware changes the output of HDMI out to equal HDMI sub and avoid the issue?
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post #4538 of 7019
1/27/13 at 10:52am
Hi folks

Not an 818 owner, merely a 717 owner, which I chose (a) because Amazon were selling them off before Christmas at half-off and (b) because I didn't think the additional features of the 818, principally the power output, were worth the extra bucks. The 717 is used in the den, not in the "rumpus room" and the wife doesn't like anything other than Oprah, Martha Stewart and "all men are b*****ds and should be castrated" wimmins' movie channel anyway - I only get to "play" when the cat's away:rolleyes:

Anyway, apart from the following, I'm quite happy with my 717:

a) only the front USB seems capable of working with a portable hard disk to stream music - not a big deal as I need to unpluf the thing to load up more music as and when anyway;
b) the wifi only supports audio and I haven't been able to pick up Netflix - if anyone knows how please let me know;
c) music CD playback using my Onkyo BD-SP809 isn't brilliant - whether this is due to the receiver DAC, the BD DAC or the speakers and speaker cables (Klipsch Reference-42IIs and cheap cables off Amazon, I'm not sure, but a proper CD player is on the way and I have some mega-expensive Chord UK cables I might try next week so I guess I'll find out.

Anyway, apart from asking if there's a 717 thread I haven't found yet, is everyone aware of the problems people have been having with the 616? As well as firmware problems, people on whathifi.com, the forum attached to an excellent UK based hifi and AV magazine, are reporting cases of the 616 CATCHING FIRE.eek.gif

I seriously suggest that if you have a 616 that you only leave it switched on while you're in the room, and even consider unplugging it from the mains entirely when you leave the house. I'm only speculating but a product recall may come out soon....
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post #4539 of 7019
1/27/13 at 10:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darren Heal View Post

Hi folks

Not an 818 owner, merely a 717 owner, which I chose (a) because Amazon were selling them off before Christmas at half-off and (b) because I didn't think the additional features of the 818, principally the power output, were worth the extra bucks. The 717 is used in the den, not in the "rumpus room" and the wife doesn't like anything other than Oprah, Martha Stewart and "all men are b*****ds and should be castrated" wimmins' movie channel anyway - I only get to "play" when the cat's away:rolleyes:

Anyway, apart from the following, I'm quite happy with my 717:

a) only the front USB seems capable of working with a portable hard disk to stream music - not a big deal as I need to unpluf the thing to load up more music as and when anyway;
b) the wifi only supports audio and I haven't been able to pick up Netflix - if anyone knows how please let me know;
c) music CD playback using my Onkyo BD-SP809 isn't brilliant - whether this is due to the receiver DAC, the BD DAC or the speakers and speaker cables (Klipsch Reference-42IIs and cheap cables off Amazon, I'm not sure, but a proper CD player is on the way and I have some mega-expensive Chord UK cables I might try next week so I guess I'll find out.

Anyway, apart from asking if there's a 717 thread I haven't found yet, is everyone aware of the problems people have been having with the 616? As well as firmware problems, people on whathifi.com, the forum attached to an excellent UK based hifi and AV magazine, are reporting cases of the 616 CATCHING FIRE.eek.gif

I seriously suggest that if you have a 616 that you only leave it switched on while you're in the room, and even consider unplugging it from the mains entirely when you leave the house. I'm only speculating but a product recall may come out soon....

One of the reviews of the 809 on Amazon shows something similar. Turn on power, some flames, fizzles, the cooling fans going to jet-engine speed (I assume they sensed the heat), then turn the unit off and it all goes away.

Honestly, before I thought about recall, etc I would look at how the darn things are shipped. Factory box only. A receiver weighing 40+ lbs being knocked around during shipment....wouldnt surprise me one bit if something on the bottom case got bent or a circuit board flexed enough to touch the metal chassis and cause a short.
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post #4540 of 7019
1/27/13 at 11:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Murphy View Post

That's what intrigues me...that relatively few people notice this in other Onkyo AVR's.
I realize that there was some discussion as far back as the 606 but what of all the 3xxx and 5xxx, the flagship receivers of the last few years, how could they not also be affected, seeing that they share the same VP as many of the mid-lines as they do in the current 818.

When this bug was first found and being posted about incessantly here, by the more evangelical members, I thought that it was simply a minor quirk somewhat akin to the lack of gapless playback (which probably affects less than .000001% of recordings ever made) and one that many people never observed and was simply limited to a small group of purists who were like the kid in "The 6th Sense", but instead of dead people they saw dropped frames, and I really wished they would have just bought 3010/5010 receivers instead and clutter up that thread.

But I was wrong and I now thank them for their efforts and perseverance to get Onkyo to step up and at least acknowledge the problem and work to find a fix.

Well done.

Indeed a big thanks to all who pushed onkyo to address this issue. Hopefully they will find a true fix, and not just bypass the VP.

As for the gapless issue, it effects all live albums, many classical albums and a good number of my classic rock albums (Boston, Floyd, Beatles, zeppelin, etc). I'm sure it effects other genres as well... I'm guessing close to 5% of my albums.
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post #4541 of 7019
1/27/13 at 11:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisexv6 View Post

I thought it was determined and proven that this bug doesnt affect just Onkyo?

It affects at least a few other video sources with the QDEO chip, no? Even some HTPC setups (cant find the link for that but I know there is a post somewhere about it on AVSForum)

Good on Onkyo for fixing it....I have to wonder if their hardware/firmware was the source of the issue, or if they needed to workaround an issue from something that isnt theirs.

If thats the case then testing for correct frame rate should NOW be included in their reviews. I tested Marantz new pre-pro and it passed.
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post #4542 of 7019
1/27/13 at 11:26am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Edmundo Lopez View Post

Would it be possible that the new firmware changes the output of HDMI out to equal HDMI sub and avoid the issue?

Thats why more testing needs to be done.
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post #4543 of 7019
1/27/13 at 11:56am
Thread Starter 
It does not seem that the VP is being bypassed. For one thing, if that was happening, then with this new firmware the OSD would be disabled, but it is still operable.

I'm sure we will never know "exactly" what they've done from a firmware implementation perspective, this could have been a relatively simple fix once they really understood what it was. Someone would have to direct compare two 818s, one with the previous FW and one with the new one, to see what all (if anything) has been changed with the VP.

The bigger concern for me, is how something as fundamental as preserving the frame-rate of a source when the VP is in direct or other pass-through modes, got missed in whatever testing they did when the product was being developed.

Now that Gibson has bought Onkyo I really hope that they invest a bit in things like system verification and quality control so that fewer things like this slip through.

There are video test sets and HDMI analyzers that can tell you what is going on with a signal. So, when customers say "I'm seeing a glitch/stutter" in the picture with 24P sources, maybe instead of casting doubt on them and claiming that they can't reproduce the issue, Onkyo should actually test it with the tools of the trade that are designed for that purpose.
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post #4544 of 7019
1/27/13 at 12:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Edmundo Lopez View Post

Would it be possible that the new firmware changes the output of HDMI out to equal HDMI sub and avoid the issue?

No. The OSD would not work then as jmpage mentioned.
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post #4545 of 7019
1/27/13 at 12:47pm
Anyone running their 818 with Oppo BDP-103 blueray player? If so have you had any handshake issues? I'm waiting on confirmation from oppo that the VP section will show incoming and outgoing frame rates, if so the 103 will be my new blueray player.
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post #4546 of 7019
1/27/13 at 1:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post

It does not seem that the VP is being bypassed. For one thing, if that was happening, then with this new firmware the OSD would be disabled, but it is still operable.

What I'm hoping is that the VP is still functional, so we are able to use it for functions like deinterlacing, noise reduction, scaling, etc. for DVD's, TV, etc.
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post #4547 of 7019
1/27/13 at 1:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Butny View Post

Anyone running their 818 with Oppo BDP-103 blueray player?

I am using a BDP-103 with the 818...the initial HDMI handshaking is pretty slow but after that there are no problems.
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post #4548 of 7019
1/27/13 at 1:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by laugsbach View Post

I am using a BDP-103 with the 818...the initial HDMI handshaking is pretty slow but after that there are no problems.

If you use the VP section of the oppo 103 will it show you the frame rate? If so and you installed the new firmware plug your 818 into the oppo and out of oppo into your display and check the frame rate. I was going to buy a Dvdo Duo for testing but if the oppo will display the frame rate then its my new player.
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post #4549 of 7019
1/27/13 at 1:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Butny View Post

If you use the VP section of the oppo 103 will it show you the frame rate?

I don't know as I haven't tried...I can test tomorrow.
Quote:
If so and you installed the new firmware plug your 818 into the oppo and out of oppo into your display and check the frame rate. I was going to buy a Dvdo Duo for testing but if the oppo will display the frame rate then its my new player.

Onyko said they will e-mail the FW to me tomorrow and I will check.
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post #4550 of 7019
1/27/13 at 2:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by laugsbach View Post

I don't know as I haven't tried...I can test tomorrow.
Onyko said they will e-mail the FW to me tomorrow and I will check.

Thanks for your continued feedback.
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post #4551 of 7019
1/27/13 at 2:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoatLocker View Post

As for the gapless issue, it effects all live albums, many classical albums and a good number of my classic rock albums (Boston, Floyd, Beatles, zeppelin, etc). I'm sure it effects other genres as well... I'm guessing close to 5% of my albums.

Agree completely, and numbers are really much larger than that. As far as I remember pretty much every Led Zep album has at least one gapless transition...

And to the list of performers that used gapless on their non-live tracks could be added:
Blink-182
Depeche Mode
Dream Theater
Electric Light Orchestra
Eminem
Enigma
Foo Fighters
Genesis
Gorillaz
Madonna
Muse
Nine Inch Nails
Red Hot Chili Peppers
Sting
The White Stripes
The Who
U2
Van Halen

Those are only 'big' names and there are many more, quite different genres... How many people do not listen at least something from the list? I you add DJ mixes and classics I think it will cover pretty much everyone... who listens music at all. If someone don't care, it's OK for him, but why care to have a "High End" stuff then?
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post #4552 of 7019
1/27/13 at 2:49pm
Well I guess we will have to bitch and threaten Onkyo yet again to fix the gapless issue.
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post #4553 of 7019
1/27/13 at 3:41pm
Does anyone know what wattage output of the L&R Front Wide and L&R Front High channels are?
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post #4554 of 7019
1/27/13 at 3:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by InfernoST View Post

Does anyone know what wattage output of the L&R Front Wide and L&R Front High channels are?

All channels are the same. 135w @ .008% thd
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post #4555 of 7019
1/27/13 at 3:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoatLocker View Post

All channels are the same. 135w @ .008% thd

Agree wattage is the same across all channels, but 135w is a 2 channel driven spec. Not sure if anyone one bench tested all channels driven. Maybe 90or100w???
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post #4556 of 7019
1/27/13 at 4:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoatLocker View Post

All channels are the same. 135w @ .008% thd

What confuses me in the Specs is they say Rated output for all channels is 135 watts min per channel @ 8 ohms then specify 7 ch x 180 watts at 6ohms. The 818 is classified as a 7.2 channel receiver not 11.2 so I'm led to believe they mean All Channels = 7 based upon the last statement.


Edited by InfernoST - 1/27/13 at 4:45pm
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post #4557 of 7019
1/27/13 at 4:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by NODES View Post

Well I guess we will have to bitch and threaten Onkyo yet again to fix the gapless issue.

There is a difference b/w the two things. One is a bug, the other is a feature that was never part of the spec sheet.
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post #4558 of 7019
1/27/13 at 4:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by InfernoST View Post




It's worded weird but that is only a one channel driven spec.

All channel driven specs give you the "how they perform in the worst case scenario", however real world it would never be that difficult and would be somewhere in between 2channel and all channel driven specs.

In the end the difference between 100w and 200w is 3db, not much.
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post #4559 of 7019
1/27/13 at 4:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by babgvant View Post

There is a difference b/w the two things. One is a bug, the other is a feature that was never part of the spec sheet.

You can submit what is called a feature request to Onkyo but will probably need a lot of people requesting the same feature if it indeed was never part of the spec.
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post #4560 of 7019
1/27/13 at 4:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by dstew100 View Post

It's worded weird but that is only a one channel driven spec.

All channel driven specs give you the "how they perform in the worst case scenario", however real world it would never be that difficult and would be somewhere in between 2channel and all channel driven specs.

In the end the difference between 100w and 200w is 3db, not much.

The only reason I'm concerned about it is because I'm going to reconfigure the front of my HT, I'm planning on replacing my JBL-E20's with my S38's in the front high position and put in 2 E100's for the LR Front where the S38's are now.
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