Onkyo TX-NR818 "official" owner's thread discussion - Page 172

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Why do you thing your issue with 24p is a bug, but boosting lows below F3 is not? It is failing to follow the very basics in acoustics and equalization. There is only a little knowledge of the physics of amplifying and acoustics needed to understand it. Mis-estimating F3 lower than it is is already a bug. Serious one. When boost happened to subwoofer channel a lot of people complained and it was accepted it was a bug, and was fixed... What is the difference for satellites? How someone can really believe the capabilities of ordinary speakers are better than specifically designed subwooders in respect of producing something below F3, and the capabilities of receiver's amps are better than the specifically designed subwoofers which power is more than than the total power of all channels of the receiver?
I can't compare another XT32 unit unfortunately, I am not a receivers shop, so I can only investigate what I have.
But the problem seems easily reproducible - just put 818 and some speakers into 3*5.6*2.5 meters room and measure. Another user measurements in those conditions show it happens to him too... And many people are satisfied by such a crap that this is not really confirmation that their system also working correctly. After all I've told many times - it is very loud, so it is enough for most of the users to be satisfied.
My situation is not extraordinary and my room size is so common or even standard in this side of the world, so, many people will meet very similar acoustic conditions. BTW, I wonder why Audyssey cannot just take my measured in room frequency response and run it as a test through the XT32, without any receivers involved... And analyze the result, as XT32 is just a software I would expect it to be able to do it and have such kind of tests to verify its performance.
This can only be viewed as a bug... really... should be obvious for any professional.
How correct estimation of F3 end elimination of this extreme behavior would break things for other users? It will only be benefit for everyone.
Edited by IgorZep - 2/23/13 at 3:03am

 

You'll only notice a difference if the amps in the 818 are not sufficient for the job they are  being asked to do. If the 818 can drive your speakers to the SPLs you need in your room, without distortion or clipping, more powerful or different external amps won’t make any difference  at all the the SQ.

Just that Audyssey doesn't make mistakes determining a speaker's in-room -3dB point (which can be very different from the actual -3dB point measured under free field conditions).

Have you looked into my measurements? Ok, I know your position - "Audyssey newer have bugs, everything it does is a feature".

Do you have left and right speaker and subwoofer in-room measurements? What crossover frequency did Audyssey suggest?

I've posted sub and right speaker measurements already... the sub really doesn't matter, it is fine For the left speaker I don't have it saved, but it is pretty similar to right speaker, although resonances there not as strong...
If you look to the graph of the right speaker - it is detected as 40Hz by Audyssey, but it is clearly visible on acoustic graph it falls down below F3 a little bit above 50Hz... So, even if Audyssey would look to F3 only by falling -3dB from the average then it is already wrong. If it would calculate F3 as an intersection of averaging the slope below F3 and averaging the response above F3 it would be even more wrong in estimation. And as it continues to correct below F3 it is very logical that this range should be included in estimation also or any random room peak just below F3 would cause it to boost everything below mis-estimated F3 then, again - it is very logical to use in estimation the same whole range that will be corrected afterwards. As they are wizards in mathematics it seems strange they overlooked this. I can draw some pictures if my explanations are not clear enough...

What is even more interesting is that XT32 is often reported to estimate F3 lower than it's previous versions, considering it can correct below F3 it should be much more conservative in this respect.

Crossover settings for the fronts depends on the in-room response of left, right and the sub. That's why measuring all of them is crucial if you want to show that the -3dB point is set incorrectly. Don't move the mic during calibration, then measure L, R and sub with/without Audyssey engaged at that very same location (don't forget to switch L and R to large and sub to 200Hz when measuring the "without Audyssey" case). This would produce conclusive data.

That is not even close to markus's position or what he said. He has provided you with a great deal of helpful information that you could use to improve your situation. You need to understand that you and your claimed "1 other person" whom we never hear from is not the experience the vast majority of us have. Do you think we are too ignorant to measure, or we don't understand how to decipher between good and bad audio reproduction? Do you understand we are on a forum dedicated to high end audio and video reproduction using scientific principles? Do you think your knowledge and experience in these matters exceeds that of all other AVS contributors?

One of the many valid points markus has made is that what you think is your -3db point is not what audyssey has measured it to be. I've read about a gazillion of your posts complaining about this, but you have not accepted the simple fact that audyssey is not going from your speakers specifications, it's going from what it measured IN ROOM. I've yet to read a post from you stating what you have done to improve your situation. Please tell me you have done something, anything, to help your situation. I clearly see MANY options for you. Do you need them to be listed for you again or are you just going to do nothing and whine some more?

Help,
I hooked Audyssey XT32 up to my clock radio and it does not sound like the system at abbey road recording studios. Should I do something about it or just tell you folks two hundred times?

It is the worst (read highest) F3 of the left and right, how come it could depend on the sub FR - only you know
I did this. They show the same - acoustical drop in the FR of the fronts a little bit higher than 50Hz, while Audyssey things it is 40Hz and boost @ 40Hz (the supposed -3dB point) by 10dB already.

What single suggestion he gave me that will improve my situation. That one I haven't tried already?
Have you measured? Then post your graphs - it will be more useful.
Are you sure most people here are really that advanced? Surely there are such people here... But most are just ordinary owners of 818 here.
Why are you so sure about this? It is not valid point and it is so clearly visible on my graphs...
You haven't tried to understand anything I wrote then, as I clearly expressed that I understand this fact and in every word I say this fact is assumed.
Every bit from the Audyssey 101 and FAQ. There is no point to relist them all again.
I did probably hundred of calibrations already doing almost everything possible. You might try to suggest something, but sorry if I will not give you detailed answer, I will only limit myself to the kind of "I've done this already" answers, as I am tired to repeat simple things.

Looks like not much to assist Igor going forward, I think Audyssey Forum is a better place to raise this issue. At least you will know whether other users (Onkyo XT32 or other AVR's XT32) having similar issues. Another way to look at this issue is to accept the fact that Onkyo licences XT32 from another company and the solution/answer would eventually come from Audyssey not Onkyo.

BTW I'm not sure if it helps but do you turn Dyn EQ on or off when measuring your FR. I found that, for some tracks, Dyn EQ sounds unnatural, especially the low end.

Would you mind posting those graphs? Without that data there's no proof your 818 is misbehaving.

Considering a TX-NR818, any advise? Have heard Onkyo has some reliability issues. Would appreciate any input...the good, the bead and the ugly.

Thank you for your time.

Have you
Added a subwoofer (or 2, 3, or 4)
Tried better speakers
Raised the crossover
Tried another onkyo 818
Tried a different model AVR with XT32
Turned Audyssey off
Performed your own EQ to your liking with something like a minidsp
Added effective acoustical treatments to your room
?

Audyssey cannot correct your problem. If it doesn't help your system, move on. Graphs of my dual Rythmik FV15HP's and 800 series Bowers and Wilkins are not going to help you. I suspect, based on your response, input from the experienced knowledgeable helpful folks on AVS that we cannot help you either. The vast majority of Audyssey XT32 users report, and show, that it improved their system performance. Room correction will continue to improve, but It has it's limitations and room correction cannot change the physical capabilities of your speakers or acoustical response of your room.

I do hope you are able to resolve your issues and get your system to a performance level that pleases you, but you are trying the wrong things.

Is it a joke? Sorry, idiotic suggestions having nothing to do with the issue, I am not a shop. And I have no problem with subwoofer.
Yes
I am not a shop or millionaire again
Yes
No
Not yet (permanently). Tried temporarily, some sound absorbing materials on back wall... Improves greatly no-audyssey case, recalibrate+audyssey applied - back to 'crap' sound.
The problem is not that it cannot correct my acoustical problems, the problem is that it creates a problem by itself that outweighs improvements.
I suspect too, Onkyo/Audyssey are those who can really help.
Looking at Markus graphs I can believe there are such people who have improvements. But I also have seen a lot of examples when people claiming something just driven by marketing and even if something is objectively worse they still telling the thing they have bought is better. This is known phenomena in psychology, when people spent quite enough amount of money and told it is the best thing over the world, they are protecting this position afterwards and see no objective evidences they are wrong.
It is that simple. Do not try to change capabilities of the speakers... You have said it yourself - it can't do it, then why Audyssey is trying that
Yes, I was unlucky to buy wrong receiver and found it out too late to solve it easily...

Your system is not able to reproduce low frequencies well. You believe the suggestion of adding a subwoofer is "idiotic". I thought you were having a listening problem receiving the helpful advice you have been given, but I was wrong. The reason you are unable to improve your system is much deeper then simply listening to those that can help you.

I did not waste any more of my time reading beyond this.

Anyone out there who is happy with Audyssey EQ done any comparisons with THX loudness plus?

Those two "technologies" do very different things.

Audyssey EQ (MultEQ) = room/speaker correction
THX Loudness Plus = equal loudness compensation

Corresponsing solutions similar to THX Loudness Plus are Audyssey Dynamic EQ and Dolby Volume.

There are warranty laws in Estonia. You need to prove your product has a defect (which you obviously refuse to do). It's the same process in most countries.

HI I mostly listen to 2 channels and new to the surrand sound setup.

I am happy with my 818, just don't know how to correctly set it up. I already use the Audyssey to config the output level. But for the output profile, I have no idea what is the different between "dts", Dolby Digital, THX, etc...

Can someone enlighten me?

My setup is Sharp LC-60LE845U, Oppo BDP-105, Onkyo TX-NR818.

thanks

Vic

Yet again - I don't have a problem with subwoofer! It suits me very well. While adding a subwoofer will improve the sound in my room - I completely agree with that - it is in no help in solving my Aydyssey problem. Suggesting to buy more hardware that will not solve the problem someone having is the most useless suggestion that can be given.

If we only would know what exactly your Audyssey problem really is...

You're talking about "Listening Modes"? Please see
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1412714/onkyo-tx-nr818-official-owners-thread-discussion/2880#post_22577065

For a more in-depth explanation of AVR features please see
http://www.avsforum.com/t/968859/avr-faq

Thanks Marcus. I knew the difference but unfortunately wrote the wrong thing, which made my question confusing. I left out dynamic.

To correct...

Anyone out there who is happy with Audyssey Dynamic EQ done any comparisons with THX loudness plus?

 

I have done listening tests with both and, TBH, didn't hear much difference. It's an interesting one to measure with REW so we can see what each one is doing. I have done that with DEQ on and off but not a comparison between DEQ and THXLP. Next time I have the REW gear out I'll measure both and see the differences. Interesting test. I'll be measuring next week after installing additional room treatments so I'll do it then. Will post the graphs here.