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Onkyo TX-NR818 "official" owner's thread discussion - Page 174

post #5191 of 9511
Quote:
Originally Posted by wlhungdude View Post

well... defiant novices usually don't get a lot of love here. wink.gif

He didn't do anything you couldn't have done yourself. You have to invest one way or the other... either the time learning what to do, or the $ to have someone else do it. The problem is, what he thinks is best may or may not sound better to you. I question why you would pay someone else to do it, without having expended the effort to know what he was doing. He didn't do anything you couldn't do yourself. Invest the time in yourself, and you'll never need to spend the $ for someone else to set it the way they like.

Here are some links from his site:

http://homecinemaguru.com/?p=3218

http://www.accucalhd.com/images/audyssey_manual_eq.jpg
post #5192 of 9511
Dear friends excellent news!
I just received a mail from onkyo support europe with a ticket number on my request and they inform me that sometime between the next two weeks they will release a new firmware which should solve the 24p issue.

Excellent, all I can say. I have to thank also the US forum moderator, I guess he has done his part as well.

smile.gif
post #5193 of 9511
Quote:
Originally Posted by vmantas View Post

Dear friends excellent news!
I just received a mail from onkyo support europe with a ticket number on my request and they inform me that sometime between the next two weeks they will release a new firmware which should solve the 24p issue.

Excellent, all I can say. I have to thank also the US forum moderator, I guess he has done his part as well.

smile.gif
Man just get the USA version of the firmware, stop with all the faffing around.
post #5194 of 9511
Quote:
Originally Posted by dstew100 View Post

I've owned Harmon Kardon, Denon, Marantz, and Onkyo. I am a Software Engineer in a field unrelated to audio or video home entertainment. Your faulty assumptions and mis-interpretations continue to grow.

The way how you are suggesting to buy all the additional hardware that is not supposed to solve the problem I am having and telling me that I have problems with something I don't have them let me interpret things this way wink.gif
BTW, the only thing you forgot to suggest is to buy a new house. If not to mention the non-practicality of this, it would probably the the best chance to get this 818 to work correctly biggrin.gif
post #5195 of 9511
Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

Igor,

deliver conclusive data otherwise we're going round in circles. This is the data I would expect:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1412714/onkyo-tx-nr818-official-owners-thread-discussion/5130#post_23001010

If Onkyo or Audyssey would even ask for such data I would do it immediately for them. You are not going to accept them anyway, so why bother doing it right now... Wait until I will have enough time to present data in a way you like if you cannot read the data from the existing graphs and cannot do even simple logical conclusions.
At the moment the only thing I have saved is the 8 point measurements of no-audyssey acoustical response for one of the fronts. Those all show natural rolloff starting 50Hz and higher.
Edited by IgorZep - 2/25/13 at 8:57am
post #5196 of 9511
Quote:
Originally Posted by IgorZep View Post

At the moment the only thing I have saved is the 8 point measurements of no-audyssey acoustical response for one of the fronts. Those all show natural rolloff starting 50Hz and higher.
It is true that it is very hard to convince anyone about this who are in the sect and whose absolute belief is "flat acoustical response no matter what" and whose knowledge of acoustics is limited by this mantra. It was hard to pass through the first level of Onkyo support because of that... Unfortunately on next level after initial response that they will try reproducing during a week and will contact me for the details and my reply that I will be as helpful as possible they disappeared and not answering anymore for a month already frown.gif
post #5197 of 9511
Quote:
Originally Posted by IgorZep View Post

If Onkyo or Audyssey would even ask for such data I would do it immediately for them.

So you didn't provide them with conclusive data and wonder that they don't do anything?
Quote:
Originally Posted by IgorZep View Post

You are not going to accept them anyway, so why bother doing it right now...

Of course I would accept that data if you would only provide it...
Quote:
Originally Posted by IgorZep View Post

Wait until I will have enough time to present data in a way you like if you cannot read the data from the existing graphs and cannot do even simple logical conclusions.

No need to get rude.
Quote:
Originally Posted by IgorZep View Post

At the moment the only thing I have saved is the 8 point measurements of no-audyssey acoustical response for one of the fronts. Those all show natural rolloff starting 50Hz and higher.

Do the measurements like I proposed. Audyssey has to set the same crossover for L and R, so the response of both speakers is important and has to be measured. The behavior of the subwoofer might also play a role in how the crossover point is set so it needs to be measured too.

To generate a complete data set measure as follows:

- Connect only L, R and the sub
- Run MultEQ with the mandatory 3 runs; leave the mic at the very same location for all 3 runs
- Report the crossover frequency MultEQ found
- Measure the preamp outputs for L, R and sub
- Report the magnitude response of those 3 measurements

- Measure L, R and sub individually at exactly the same location where the Audyssey mic was placed for calibration; make sure Dynamic EQ is switched off
- Report the magnitude response of those 3 measurements

- Switch Audyssey to off

- Measure L, R and sub individually at exactly the same location where the Audyssey mic was placed for calibration; make sure Dynamic EQ is switched off
- Report the magnitude response of those 3 measurements

- Switch the crossover for the fronts to 200Hz and measure the subwoofer at exactly the same location where the Audyssey mic was placed for calibration; make sure Dynamic EQ is switched off
- Report the magnitude response of that measurement
- Switch the fronts to large and measure L and R individually at exactly the same location where the Audyssey mic was placed for calibration; make sure Dynamic EQ is switched off
- Report the magnitude response of those 2 measurements
post #5198 of 9511
Quote:
Originally Posted by IgorZep View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by IgorZep View Post

At the moment the only thing I have saved is the 8 point measurements of no-audyssey acoustical response for one of the fronts. Those all show natural rolloff starting 50Hz and higher.
It is true that it is very hard to convince anyone about this who are in the sect and whose absolute belief is "flat acoustical response no matter what" and whose knowledge of acoustics is limited by this mantra. It was hard to pass through the first level of Onkyo support because of that... Unfortunately on next level after initial response that they will try reproducing during a week and will contact me for the details and my reply that I will be as helpful as possible they disappeared and not answering anymore for a month already frown.gif

 

Igor, I don't have a dog in this fight so I can stand back and just observe and wait for an outcome.  Setting all personal and emotional issue aside, Markus has given you a very clear set of specific tests to run in his last post - why not just run them and post the results and wait for Markus's comments on them?  I know Markus of old and he is definitely not an Onkyo nor an Audyssey 'fanboy' so his observations are objective, no matter what you might believe. If you run those tests and post the results then maybe we will all have a much clearer idea of what exactly the problem is, and maybe even some suggestions. At the least, you would be able to present that data to Audyssey and Onkyo for their own comments - and maybe they could try the same tests and be able to reproduce your findings. How about it?

post #5199 of 9511
Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

So you didn't provide them with conclusive data and wonder that they don't do anything?
The data is conclusive, it is only you who can't conclude a simple thing and can't understand that the mis-estimated F3 below the real acoustical one and the boost below the real one are the same things, assuming everything else is working as expected. Otherwise it is really uneasy to provide them something more when they are not answering...
Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

The behavior of the subwoofer might also play a role in how the crossover point is set so it needs to be measured too.
You have it! But really, FR of the crossover has no any relation to F3 of any other speaker. In what obscure way it can affect my fronts F3 to be detected as 40 instead of at least 50... You only know biggrin.gif
But you have the evidence it is pretty flat up to the 80Hz after Audyssey and have no problems at low end (and there is clearly visible that correction actually stopped below F3). And I've had other speakers detected up to 120Hz, so no problem with that, sub in no way limits it wink.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

To generate a complete data set measure as follows:
I hardly will be able to do any measurements earlier than next weekends (except if asked by Onkyo/Audyssey with a willing to solve the problem).
Doing this masturbation urgently only for your pleasure will not help in solving the problem anyway.
post #5200 of 9511

That's a first on AVS!!!  eek.gif

post #5201 of 9511
Quote:
Originally Posted by theoneofgod View Post

Man just get the USA version of the firmware, stop with all the faffing around.

As I have said it is not possible at least in a straight forward manner to have the beta firmware from US when applying from Europe. The relevant form has mandatory fields the address..etc.
Anyway, obviously the key word in the message I received is the release as so far we were looking for some beta firmware. Released versions are always better and come with the manufacturer's guarantee. I can keep patient for the next weeks waiting for it...and have some faffing around for fun biggrin.gif
post #5202 of 9511
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Igor, I don't have a dog in this fight so I can stand back and just observe and wait for an outcome.  Setting all personal and emotional issue aside, Markus has given you a very clear set of specific tests to run in his last post - why not just run them and post the results and wait for Markus's comments on them?
You know it - it takes time, a lot of time. rolleyes.gif And I simply away of home most of the time. And if I'll run calibration at night - neighbors will kill me biggrin.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I know Markus of old and he is definitely not an Onkyo nor an Audyssey 'fanboy' so his observations are objective, no matter what you might believe. If you run those tests and post the results then maybe we will all have a much clearer idea of what exactly the problem is, and maybe even some suggestions.
I see Markus comments here for a while too and generally I can say he is one of the best persons contributing to this and other threads. tongue.gif Really it is me telling that smile.gif
It is just this topic where his position to protect obviously wrong behavior of Audyssey MultEQ (so, even Chris was not telling it is an expected behavior, but just guessing for possible reasons) is so strong that it makes so much emotions in the end.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

At the least, you would be able to present that data to Audyssey and Onkyo for their own comments - and maybe they could try the same tests and be able to reproduce your findings. How about it?
Nothing against that, if they only had an interest. It is them who should ask for data, not the Markus. Until they are interested in the first place there is no way they will be able to reproduce it. The worst thing in all of this is that they don't have this interest in improving their product. I am working myself doing software development and in my company all technical support are dealt by developers themselves, and we are really thankful to those customers who report issues and often spent quite amount of energy in helping us to reproduce something tricky. And there is a rule - even if only one user reported problem - deal with it to the end, as there are probably tenths of others who don't report and just leave. In this case with XT32 issue I've already put so much effort they should be thinking to hire me. biggrin.gif
post #5203 of 9511
Decisions , Decisions...

Have to decide on Pioneer 1222 big discount Newegg @ $549
or wait til Onky 818 goes on sale sometime....

I already stream all my media via PS3 Media Server, so don't know about all this network stuff

My Onkyo 706 is slowly dying regarding HDMI board failure....


any thoughts?

======
Onkyo 706
PS3
HSU Hybrid 15 package (with VTF-15 sub)
post #5204 of 9511
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlm86 View Post

Decisions , Decisions...

Have to decide on Pioneer 1222 big discount Newegg @ $549
or wait til Onky 818 goes on sale sometime....

Pretty amazing price on the pioneer, think I might pick one up just for the heck of it. I am happy with the Onkyo though.
post #5205 of 9511
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by IgorZep View Post

If Onkyo or Audyssey would even ask for such data I would do it immediately for them. You are not going to accept them anyway, so why bother doing it right now... Wait until I will have enough time to present data in a way you like if you cannot read the data from the existing graphs and cannot do even simple logical conclusions.
At the moment the only thing I have saved is the 8 point measurements of no-audyssey acoustical response for one of the fronts. Those all show natural rolloff starting 50Hz and higher.

You misunderstand how this works. In the world of cheap electronics you must provide the data that conclusively proves misbehavior before the vendor is going to act. This is exactly what happened with 24P bug. Even though the bug was easily demonstrable, Onkyo USA refused to acknowledge or work the problem until people started proving with video processors that the unit was doing the wrong thing.

I'm not saying that's how it should be, but that's reality.

It is also possible that what you are describing as a "bug" is simply a system limitation of Audyssey, in which case, as has been recommended to you before, you should get something else.

P.S. You commented before how hard it is to sell an AVR in a country of less than 1M people... I checked and as of the 2011 census Estonia has well over a million. Nice try though.
Edited by jmpage2 - 2/25/13 at 3:07pm
post #5206 of 9511
Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMyers View Post

Quick note...

I've been seeing strange lip sync issues since moving to my 818. I'm really picky when it comes to lip sync, more so than most.

The problem I saw after adding the 818 was that video was ahead of audio. You cannot fix this with the 818 since you can only add additional audio delay. Delaying HDMI video would require a huge amount if storage.

Note: if you have HDMI av sync enabled, the 818 does allow negative av sync adjustment. However, this is because "0" has now been defined as whatever compensation is needed as specified by your display. Put another way, 0 might really mean 100ms so -100ms would be zero adjustment. Anything more negative is treated the same. At least that's what my eyes and ears told me.

How did I fix it? I've disabled Audyssey Dynamic EQ. It definitely introduced audio latency, causing the video to be ahead of the audio. While I have no hard data to support this, it appears to introduce a variable latency --- not just a fixed one. When I have Dynamic EQ enabled, the lip sync seems to drift back and forth from being fair to annoying and then back to fair.

I played around with a DVRed episode of Big Bang Theory, so I did test this out with real content.

I do like Dynamic EQ for music, but it will be disabled for movies and TV.

Anyone else noticed additional (variable?) latency with Dynamic EQ?

Setup note: My display has low video latency, about 30ms. If someone had a display with higher video latency, it's possible the 818's audio latency adjust could solve their problem. Since my display is about 30ms latency and I'm seeing the video ahead of the audio with Audyssey Dynamic EQ enabled, that would mean Audyssey Dynamic EQ adds at least > 30ms latency (assuming the source is sending A/V exactly synched initially, which may not be the case). That sounds like a lot, I know...

Well... Audyssey claims that Dynamic EQ is "essentially" a zero latency function. Puzzled.

Anyone else experience different AV sync with/without Dynamic EQ?
post #5207 of 9511
I'll give Igor some space if he's willing to do Markus's test. However I think Markus needs to re-write / re-design them as Igor does not have a sub.

Igor, if I turn out wrong and you truely have a bug I have not problem admitting when I'm wrong as it adds to my knowledge. I welcome it. However I feel like there are so many people with this receiver and this version of Audyssey it seems unlikely to be a bug IMO. Many of us do measure, I do measure, and there's a lot of experience around here. Maybe it is something system specific / situation specific (not too many running without a sub here so audyssey's behavior in that situation is not near as tried and true). But it seems like an Audyssey developer would have had to change the XT32 code on a hand full of receivers included yours. To me no sub with limited power handling and extension of the other speakers is the obvious culprit. If you want to improve your low frequency response change hardware in such a way as to improve your low frequency response (and room treatment can help a bit but can not change the speakers peak performance capabilities). A sub is specifically designed to take that load off the other speakers which in turn cleans up their sound quality. That's what a sub is for, specifically your situation. You can easily throw on a high pass if you want (which will limit your frequency range) but I don't see why the crossover can't do that for you.

As I said before I do hope you resolve your issue.
post #5208 of 9511
Is Audyssey actually necessary?
post #5209 of 9511
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlm86 View Post

Decisions , Decisions...

Have to decide on Pioneer 1222 big discount Newegg @ $549
or wait til Onky 818 goes on sale sometime....

I already stream all my media via PS3 Media Server, so don't know about all this network stuff

My Onkyo 706 is slowly dying regarding HDMI board failure....


any thoughts?

======
Onkyo 706
PS3
HSU Hybrid 15 package (with VTF-15 sub)

That is a heck of a price. My only draw back is no 12v trigger. I am only in process of debating on a 818. I am not familiar with the MCACC it provides.
post #5210 of 9511
Im getting a fair amount of 'white noise' with audyssey running, shut it off and its gone. Its about as loud as a decent sized box fan running on low, anyone else experience similar issues?
post #5211 of 9511
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by getsideways87 View Post

Im getting a fair amount of 'white noise' with audyssey running, shut it off and its gone. Its about as loud as a decent sized box fan running on low, anyone else experience similar issues?

When a source is playing or when nothing is playing or both?
post #5212 of 9511
Quote:
Originally Posted by dstew100 View Post

However I think Markus needs to re-write / re-design them as Igor does not have a sub.

.

I think Igor does have a sub, at least there was one in the pics he posted.
post #5213 of 9511
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoatLocker View Post

I think Igor does have a sub, at least there was one in the pics he posted.

Yes, he does have a sub. Picture can be found in the thread gallery.
post #5214 of 9511
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post

You misunderstand how this works. In the world of cheap electronics you must provide the data that conclusively proves misbehavior before the vendor is going to act. This is exactly what happened with 24P bug. Even though the bug was easily demonstrable, Onkyo USA refused to acknowledge or work the problem until people started proving with video processors that the unit was doing the wrong thing.
Unfortunately it didn't work this way with 24p issue also... I observed from long ago how things was progressing with the issue and the metric VP proof didn't matter at all, while it was provided to them almost from the beginning, they still wanted to 'see' the problem with their eyes, but apparently failed to do so... It is only a great push with a lot of complaints that made the progress... And sorry, this Onkyo is not 'cheap electronics' (more than $1000 on the launch) and according to the Onkyo's own marketing it is the "start of the HighEnd".
The measurements I have posted here are conclusive by themselves (if you only can conclude), they are as conclusive already in this form as would be in the form Markus wanting it. Why do you thing this form will be 'more conclusive' for Onkyo? If you cannot even understand what is the F3 and acoustical rollof, then there is no way anything will be conclusive for you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post

I'm not saying that's how it should be, but that's reality.
Unfortunately the reality is worse than that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post

It is also possible that what you are describing as a "bug" is simply a system limitation of Audyssey, in which case, as has been recommended to you before, you should get something else.
Then it is an overlooking of a very basic thing about the acoustics that is unforgivable for a company with years of experience on doing such products.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post

P.S. You commented before how hard it is to sell an AVR in a country of less than 1M people... I checked and as of the 2011 census Estonia has well over a million. Nice try though.
It is not much over a million and as of the 2012 census there are significantly less people here than was in 2011. And, this is a whole country. A single city in America/UK/Russia/Germany/etc are larger than that. If you don't have such large city in your country - there is virtually no market for expensive things. We only have pretty good (for the size) second hand market for photo gear here and to some extent for cars... Pretty much everything else that is above average price is virtually not existing here even as first-sale market.
post #5215 of 9511
So I'm trying to play my Apple TV which is connected via HDMI to the receiver with the receiver off. Is that not what HDMI passthrough does? Maybe I have the settings wrong or am misunderstanding HDMI passthrough. Is it possible?
post #5216 of 9511
Quote:
Originally Posted by pretsam View Post

That is a heck of a price. My only draw back is no 12v trigger. I am only in process of debating on a 818. I am not familiar with the MCACC it provides.
This is easily solvable. Any compliant 12V trigger input should react to 3.3V to 12V voltage, 5V is in this range, so, with a little DIY experience it is easy to make an adapter from USB wink.gif Someone should start a business selling them cool.gif
post #5217 of 9511
Quote:
Originally Posted by IgorZep View Post

Unfortunately it didn't work this way with 24p issue also... I observed from long ago how things was progressing with the issue and the metric VP proof didn't matter at all, while it was provided to them almost from the beginning, they still wanted to 'see' the problem with their eyes, but apparently failed to do so... It is only a great push with a lot of complaints that made the progress...

You need to document a bug thoroughly (which includes how to reproduce it) as much as you need to mobilize a significant group of people to be vocal about the problem. You failed at both so far.

Maybe it's time to rethink your strategy? Being rude and disrespectful to people that you actually want to have on your side is counterproductive. Example:
Quote:
Originally Posted by IgorZep View Post

[...] if you only can conclude [...] If you cannot even understand [...]
post #5218 of 9511
Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoatLocker View Post

I think Igor does have a sub, at least there was one in the pics he posted.

Yes, he does have a sub. Picture can be found in the thread gallery.
Quote:
Originally Posted by IgorZep View Post


[snip] I really don't know if it happens on non-Onkyo receivers with XT32, but it is very sad fact it happens with Onkyo 818.

I sent here graphs before, this is one more time:


Center channel alone set to full-range to isolate Audyssey, all Dynamic EQ/Volume etc are off, pre-out measurement with and without Audyssey. Detected F3 @ 50Hz, as in the FAQ example.

This post mislead me. If he had a sub, ran audyssey, then set center to full range for this measurement I don't think this shows us much of anything. I thought this was the measurement he was touting as "proof"

EDIT:
Quote:
Originally Posted by IgorZep View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

IgorZep,
Thanks for the graphs. Just to make sure I understand them correctly. The upper part is preamp output and the lower curves are in-room?
The lower grey and black curves are two different mic locations with Audyssey off?
Did you set subwoofer to "none" prior running Audyssey?

Yes, Yes, and No... I calibrated with subwoofer, but it does not matter as calibration is independent for each channel including the sub.

It really seems like he is calibrating with a sub and then measuring without. I think the fella suggesting level normalization is on to something. If audyssey made a bunch of cuts thats how it would look below the F3. It is not a boost.

PREEDIT:
Igor will you please post a complete system description and description of your perceived "bug". I know you would have to repeat yourself but do you have any idea how many posts you've made on this topic. It's not pretty to try and find.
Edited by dstew100 - 2/26/13 at 5:34am
post #5219 of 9511
Quote:
Originally Posted by dstew100 View Post

Igor will you please post a complete system description and description of your perceived "bug".

No please, not again. We would end up where we are right now. The data is not conclusive. He needs to provide a conclusive data set as described here:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1412714/onkyo-tx-nr818-official-owners-thread-discussion/5190#post_23008746
post #5220 of 9511
Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by dstew100 View Post

Igor will you please post a complete system description and description of your perceived "bug".

No please, not again. We would end up where we are right now. The data is not conclusive. He needs to provide a conclusive data set as described here:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1412714/onkyo-tx-nr818-official-owners-thread-discussion/5190#post_23008746

Roger that, but can I at least get a full system description?

If he is running audyssey with a sub and crossover, then setting a channel to full range, then measuring audyssey's filters via pre-amp. I'd have to say I believe the behavior of the frequency range below the crossover's rolloff is undefined. When you turn the crossover back on that region goes away. That graph shows nothing of significance IMO.
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