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Onkyo TX-NR818 "official" owner's thread discussion - Page 271

post #8101 of 9458
Thanks.
post #8102 of 9458
Quote:
Originally Posted by theoneofgod View Post

I know it seems like the AV is making a 5.1 source 7.1 without your input, but isn't this a good thing if you have a 7.1 setup?

I guess i always thought if you have 5.1 in with a 3.1 setup, it would output 3.1. And, if you had 5.1 in, and a 7.1 setup, it would output 7.1.

Or are you saying it outputs 7.1 on a 5.1 setup?

If its the prior, why would you not want it to do that?
post #8103 of 9458
Quote:
Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post

I guess i always thought if you have 5.1 in with a 3.1 setup, it would output 3.1. And, if you had 5.1 in, and a 7.1 setup, it would output 7.1.

Or are you saying it outputs 7.1 on a 5.1 setup?

If its the prior, why would you not want it to do that?
It outputs 7.1 with a 7.1 setup.
post #8104 of 9458
Seems like thats how Id want it.
post #8105 of 9458
Me too smile.gif
post #8106 of 9458
Just setup, installing 8/28 FW now.

One question:

What is the difference between Pic Mode Through and Direct? I want this thing to pass through video unmolested to my display. I get my Resolution setting should be Through, just dont get the pic mode descriptions.
post #8107 of 9458
FW update took forever! After reading some about the 24p bug, and the final fix late Feb, am I correct in understanding that to avoid the Onkyo doing ANY video processing and just acting as a switcher, I should use Picture Mode "Direct" and Resolution "Through"?

Thanks.
post #8108 of 9458
Quote:
Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post

FW update took forever! After reading some about the 24p bug, and the final fix late Feb, am I correct in understanding that to avoid the Onkyo doing ANY video processing and just acting as a switcher, I should use Picture Mode "Direct" and Resolution "Through"?

Thanks.

 

I think this link was posted in the thread earlier but here it is again.  Pretty good explanation of how those settings interact.

 

http://www.aaarpinball.com/Onkyo818/Onkyo818.htm

post #8109 of 9458
Thanks! Found my answer:

Q: What if I want the TX-NR818 to be a fancy HDMI switch and provide no Video Processing?
A: Set Monitor Out:Resolution to Source and set each input's Picture Mode to Direct
post #8110 of 9458
Quote:
Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post

Thanks! Found my answer:

Q: What if I want the TX-NR818 to be a fancy HDMI switch and provide no Video Processing?
A: Set Monitor Out:Resolution to Source and set each input's Picture Mode to Direct

Video Processing should probably be defined in this context, because if you can still see the on-screen menu, then there is processing. It just isn't modifying any other aspects of the native signal.
post #8111 of 9458
Quote:
Originally Posted by theoneofgod View Post

It outputs 7.1 with a 7.1 setup.

Mine outputs 9.2 with the front wides secondary amp no matter what is input. Actually it's 10.2 because I also have sound from the surround back as well. When I first set mine up I called Onkyo to see why my BluRay player with a movie set to 7.1 only output 5.1 to my receiver. Their response was that there is only 5.1 sound and the only way to get 7.1 is when the receiver decodes 5.1 to 7.1! In fact the BluRay was set wrong and after changing the settin I had 7.1 in and 9.1 out, so Onkyo does not know very much in India!
post #8112 of 9458
Quote:
Originally Posted by freeride View Post

Video Processing should probably be defined in this context, because if you can still see the on-screen menu, then there is processing. It just isn't modifying any other aspects of the native signal.

I do see it note the input ID when you change inputs, and its an overlay. Also the Home button brings up an overlay too. As long as its not mucking with the signal, but I checked all the Video info for each input under the setup menu's, and what was coming in was exactly what was going out. I got everything setup and Audyssey done tonight, Ill throw spears and munsil in the Oppo tomorrow and test all resolutions Ill be using running thru the 818 (720p/1080i/1080 60 and 24hz)
post #8113 of 9458
Quote:
Originally Posted by freeride View Post

Video Processing should probably be defined in this context, because if you can still see the on-screen menu, then there is processing. It just isn't modifying any other aspects of the native signal.

Now that Im using it, I gotta ask how you can get the volume popup to stop coming up everytime I adjust the volume? Im used to a Denon where once you turn video convert "off", all the menu's quit coming up over the actually on s creen video.
post #8114 of 9458
Quote:
Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post

Now that Im using it, I gotta ask how you can get the volume popup to stop coming up everytime I adjust the volume? Im used to a Denon where once you turn video convert "off", all the menu's quit coming up over the actually on s creen video.
Turn it off in the Setup menu. It's under Misc or Volume.
post #8115 of 9458
Thanks, musta missed that one. Menu's are going to take some getting used too after Denon's.

After reading that pinball site again, Im not sure what Onkyo was thinking with the Direct/Through thing between Resolution and pic mode.
post #8116 of 9458
Just some observations comparing the 818 to a 3313ci:

  • 818 is 13 pounds heavier and much larger
  • Like that it has two fans
  • Denon has two 12,000uf caps vs the Onkyo's two 15,000uf caps
  • Transformer inside the Onkyo dwarfs the Denon, guess this is a good portion of the weight
  • Denons power consumption is rated at 670w and the Onkyo is 720w and 8.1 amps
post #8117 of 9458
Quote:
Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post

Just some observations comparing the 818 to a 3313ci:

  • 818 is 13 pounds heavier and much larger
  • Like that it has two fans
  • Denon has two 12,000uf caps vs the Onkyo's two 15,000uf caps
  • Transformer inside the Onkyo dwarfs the Denon, guess this is a good portion of the weight
  • Denons power consumption is rated at 670w and the Onkyo is 720w and 8.1 amps
What really matters though, does it sound better?
post #8118 of 9458
Hey guys. So for about the last week, I turn on the receiver and the power comes on, HDMI starts up and I get no sound. Video works fine on all inputs. I have a cable box, Apple TV and BluRay player connected. I get video on all of them but no audio and the speakers don't show up when looking at the face of the receiver. I turn it all off, wait a minute, try again. Sometimes it comes back fine. Sometimes I have to do it a third time. Any suggestions? Thanks.
post #8119 of 9458
Quote:
Originally Posted by theoneofgod View Post

What really matters though, does it sound better?

Havent done much listening. You act like larger transformers and caps dont matter. Where does Onkyo get all of its weight? Generally these Onkyo's test around 140+wpc on 2 channels, so they are slightly underrated at 135w. The Denon's was 125wpc and generally tested around 123wpc. My main reason for trying out the 818 is I have very very large room, and while my speakers are efficient, the more headroom the better. I think the Onkyo brings more headroom to my table, because I generally have to listen to blu-ray movies at 0.0db volume (reference). I dont expect it to sound more loud of course, but Im hoping in the heavy action scenes when pushed, it has more headroom to spare.

Thats why you go an get a 200wpc separate amp, not because you need 200wpc, but because the more headroom an amp has when pushed, the better. I also think that as it starts out higher, it's 5 channel results in tests for the 135w models is a good bit higher than Denon.

The 828 for example, with 5 channels driven tested 109.9wpc
The 3312 tested at 82.9 watts
post #8120 of 9458
Quote:
Originally Posted by bysdontcry View Post

Hey guys. So for about the last week, I turn on the receiver and the power comes on, HDMI starts up and I get no sound. Video works fine on all inputs. I have a cable box, Apple TV and BluRay player connected. I get video on all of them but no audio and the speakers don't show up when looking at the face of the receiver. I turn it all off, wait a minute, try again. Sometimes it comes back fine. Sometimes I have to do it a third time. Any suggestions? Thanks.

Sounds like your AVR is waltzing out the door. How old is it? Still in warranty?
post #8121 of 9458
Ummm..3 months old. It's new.
post #8122 of 9458
Quote:
Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by theoneofgod View Post

What really matters though, does it sound better?

Hold that thought!
Quote:
Havent done much listening.

It shows! ;-)
Quote:
You act like larger transformers and caps dont matter.

Depending on the specifics, they may or may not.

Quote:
Where does Onkyo get all of its weight?

I don't know about you but I'm more interested in sound quality than avoirdupois. ;-)
Quote:
Generally these Onkyo's test around 140+wpc on 2 channels, so they are slightly underrated at 135w. The Denon's was 125wpc and generally tested around 123wpc.

All of those numbers are within +/- 1 dB which is a barely audible difference. Probably not the most important thing. BTW if you add or subtract 2 clicks on the volume control on your remote, what difference do you hear? Probably just barely audible. That's 1 dB. Not that impressive, no?
Quote:
My main reason for trying out the 818 is I have very very large room, and while my speakers are efficient, the more headroom the better. I think the Onkyo brings more headroom to my table, because I generally have to listen to blu-ray movies at 0.0db volume (reference). I dont expect it to sound more loud of course, but Im hoping in the heavy action scenes when pushed, it has more headroom to spare.


You have to do calculatations based on speaker efficiency, listening distance and amplifier power to get a possibly useful estimate about SPL. Amplfiier power isn't everything.

Here's a handy tool for doing that:

http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html
Quote:
Thats why you go an get a 200wpc separate amp, not because you need 200wpc, but because the more headroom an amp has when pushed, the better.

Two rather obvious audiophile myths in play there, and a third subtle one.

First off, 200 watts is only 3 dB more than 100 watts, while it takes 10 times more power (+10 dB) to obtain the perception of "twice as loud". In short upgrading from 100 watts to 200 watts can be like spinning your wheels. So that is the first myth.

The second obvious myth is the idea that power that you don't use somehow improves sound quality. In fact modern amps have pretty much the distortion over the last 10 db (10x power) before clipping. So, run your AVR at 1/10 power, run it at half power, run it at full power and its pretty much the same.

The third, non-obvious third myth is that tests run by magazines with pure tones and resistive loads systematically understate the clean power that AVRs can deliver to speakers while playing music.
Quote:
I also think that as it starts out higher, it's 5 channel results in tests for the 135w models is a good bit higher than Denon.

The difference between bench tests and playing music on a real world system can easily offset all that.
post #8123 of 9458
Quote:
Originally Posted by bysdontcry View Post

Ummm..3 months old. It's new.

Then its the manufacturer's problem. He's got your money so call him up! He will probably try to do a little trouble shooting and then you will get friendly with a store or ship the AVR someplace depending.
post #8124 of 9458
Quote:
Originally Posted by bysdontcry View Post

Hey guys. So for about the last week, I turn on the receiver and the power comes on, HDMI starts up and I get no sound. Video works fine on all inputs. I have a cable box, Apple TV and BluRay player connected. I get video on all of them but no audio and the speakers don't show up when looking at the face of the receiver. I turn it all off, wait a minute, try again. Sometimes it comes back fine. Sometimes I have to do it a third time. Any suggestions? Thanks.

Hi bysdontcry, try power on in a certain order ... tv, receiver and then source.
post #8125 of 9458
Arnold, thanks for schooling me on several things I hear over and over and over again on forums, from folks that seem to like to hear themselves type.

First off, you take my context of 200wpc and add in a myth that I never brought up. The statement was simply about headroom, not about "doubling" the output. I fully understand that a 200wpc amp is not going to yield double the power of 100wpc amp. Secondly, just as many people would argue your "headroom is a myth" statement, as would support it. I tend to feel that if you speakers need "X" to play where you want them, and AVR "A" does "X" at its best, while AVR "B" can do "Z", its a smart move to have AVR "B" in your chain as long as features are comparable. Especially if you are trying to watch movies at high volume levels in a very large room.

When looking at a 3313 and 818, the features and specs are close, yet the Onkyo prove itself with a more robust power section. Sure, maybe that doesnt matter but it doesnt hurt either, but yet look at the inside of an ATI amp vs an Emotiva (not knocking Emo I own one).

IMO, one part of the puzzle doesn't the great AVR make, but, Onkyo obviously has a more beefy design in several components that can matter (caps and the transformer). At the end of the day, I dont expect them to generally sound much different, granted Ive owned an Onkyo before and I think they make my Klipsch a tad more bright than an Denon or Marantz (that will be my next schooling I guess, that amps all sound the same).

As far as the wattage output goes, the Denon 3313 has served me well, and the 90wpc 1900 series before it. I also fully understand that my 98db efficient speakers do not need much power, especially crossed at 80hz, so all of that may not matter. I picked up the 818 because I think they have done well with their amp sections, as read in many reviews, and it was a good deal. On top of that, if it actually does gain me more headroom, I'm happy. Reliability will be a concern, because lets face it, Onkyo and Marantz are better there. IMO, the amps in higher end Onkyo's are "better" than the amps in a 3312, 3313 and x4000. Real world performance for me remains to be seen because I have not had time to "push" it, but I bought it because Im confident of it's power and it was a great deal for a feature rich AVR.


Sorry for making everyone read this, Im moving on smile.gif
Edited by gadgtfreek - 10/2/13 at 7:05am
post #8126 of 9458
Thanks JChin. Will try. Weird that it just started happening. I use a Logitech remote to start everything up. I'm going to go one by one with each component startup and see what happens. I'm hoping I don't have an HDMI problem after 3 months.
post #8127 of 9458
Quote:
Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post

I tend to feel that if you speakers need "X" to play where you want them, and AVR "A" does "X" at its best, while AVR "B" can do "Z", its a smart move to have AVR "B" in your chain as long as features are comparable. Especially if you are trying to watch movies at high volume levels in a very large room.
 

 

The size of the room itself isn't all that important wrt to the speakers. What matters is how far you sit from the speakers.

 

WRT to headroom etc, amp power that is left on the table is just that: not used and therefore incapable of making any difference to anything. And having 20dB of headroom is no different to having 3dB of headroom of course. When I walk through the door to my HT, I have about 8 inches of literal headroom between my head and the top of the doorway. If I contrived to make that headroom 8 feet, what difference would it make?

post #8128 of 9458
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

The size of the room itself isn't all that important wrt to the speakers. What matters is how far you sit from the speakers.


Deleting the smartass part of that response, I did not know room volume was not a factor in amp requirements, and it was only seating distance. That was helpful.

As far as headroom being useless, or not, ive read enough both ways so its not an discussion I want to have because people on both sides act like they are right. smile.gif and I do not have the technical experience either way to prove one or the other.

Once again, I like the 818's beefier design, it was a great price. Any added benefit works for me. People also took my "observations" of the two models as more than it was, I was simply stating impressions and facts. The caps and transformer of course rubs some of you the wrong way, but it is a fact the Onkyo has more cap capacity and the a much large transformer. As to how much that matters, I dont really care smile.gif
Edited by gadgtfreek - 10/2/13 at 7:32am
post #8129 of 9458
Quote:
Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

The size of the room itself isn't all that important wrt to the speakers. What matters is how far you sit from the speakers.
 

Deleting the smartass part of that response, I did not know room volume was not a factor in amp requirements, and it was only seating distance. That was helpful.

As far as headroom being useless, or not, ive read enough both ways so its not an discussion I want to have because people on both sides act like they are right. smile.gif

 

Sorry you thought that an explanation of the pointlessness of pursuing headroom for the sake of it was 'smartass'. It wasn't intended as such.

 

I agree there is much discussion about headroom, but I can't see how anyone can argue with the logic in the example I gave. Just sayin'.

 

WRT to the room size, yes, if you have a huge room and sit 40 feet from the speakers, then room size is important ;)  But most people seem to sit about 9 feet to 14 feet from speakers. SPL drops off logarithmically as distance increases, so as long as you can get the SPLs you want, at the distance you sit from the speakers, then you are all set. It doesn't matter that someone sitting 25 feet further away can't hear the same SPL because, of course, nobody is sitting there. It's somewhat different wrt to subwoofers, but they invariably have their own amps anyway.

post #8130 of 9458
Quote:
Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post

Arnold, thanks for schooling me on several things I hear over and over and over again on forums, from folks that seem to like to hear themselves type.

It does look like I wasted my time because you are incapable of learning. I apologize for trying to help you. However, I write for the lurkers, and therefore I must thank you for bringing up popular errors.
Quote:
First off, you take my context of 200wpc

Yes I did.
Quote:
and add in a myth that I never brought up.

It was implied. Of course I can't fault you for not realizing some closely related implications of what you did say.
Quote:
The statement was simply about headroom,

Which as I showed based on technical facts is an audiophile myth.
Quote:
not about "doubling" the output.

I guess you don't remember characterizing the AVR being discussed as having just over 100 wpc, and then mentioning an upgrade to a 200 wpc outboard amp.
Quote:
I fully understand that a 200wpc amp is not going to yield double the power of 100wpc amp.

Now you are accusing me of saying something that I did not say. No way can I argue with the fact that 200 wpc is twice 100 wpc. That is a true fact. You appear to be confused about the difference between double the power and double the loudness. I talked about both and tried to convey that they are very different things.
Quote:
Secondly, just as many people would argue your "headroom is a myth" statement, as would support it.

Lesson one is that truth is not up for a vote.

I countered the myth of headroom with reliable facts. I guess you are unaware of them. Need I point out reliable facts from independent sources to further substantiate what I said? I post it over and over, and not to hear myself talk about to help people out. It appears that in dealing with you, no good deed is unpunished.

Quote:
I tend to feel that if you speakers need "X" to play where you want them, and AVR "A" does "X" at its best, while AVR "B" can do "Z", its a smart move to have AVR "B" in your chain as long as features are comparable. Especially if you are trying to watch movies at high volume levels in a very large room.

That is one confused and confusign statement! Why is it a good idea to have equipment that you will never need?
Quote:
When looking at a 3313 and 818, the features and specs are close, yet the Onkyo prove itself with a more robust power section. Sure, maybe that doesnt matter but it doesnt hurt either, but yet look at the inside of an ATI amp vs an Emotiva (not knocking Emo I own one).

That's another audiophile myth, that even rank amateurs can glance at the inside of a complex piece of equipment and automagically know how it sounds. Why bother to run bench tests or listening tests when everybody has magic eyeballs?
Quote:
IMO, one part of the puzzle doesn't the great AVR make, but, Onkyo obviously has a more beefy design in several components that can matter (caps and the transformer).

I guess you don't notice the difference between can matter, and does matter?

There is a difference between suppositions and relevant facts in many cases, no?

Ever do a DBT of two amplifiers that were significantly different? Been there, done that. They are often indistinguishable. I was initially mystified by this but after about 30 years a of studying the matter, I may have a clue. ;-)
Quote:
At the end of the day, I dont expect them to generally sound much different, granted Ive owned an Onkyo before and I think they make my Klipsch a tad more bright than an Denon or Marantz (that will be my next schooling I guess, that amps all sound the same).

As usual, you don't seem to be able can't get even the simplest things right no matter how many times different people repeat them. Read my lips. All amplifiers don't sound the same.

A lot of them do. All the good ones do.
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