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Onkyo TX-NR818 "official" owner's thread discussion - Page 285

post #8521 of 9528
Well, if it truly is doing that and ALL of them are, then Id say it would require taking Onkyo to the woodshed by owners.

Im not sure if its the high effeciency, but Im not hearing distortion on my speakers, so if it is going into 4ohm mode I guess I may not notice.

I wonder how drastically 4ohm mode cuts power compared to 6ohm.
post #8522 of 9528
If I am incorrect and it has happened before I will be the first to let you know. Unfortunately my tech is busy and can take a while. I will update as soon as I know. If it was not undar warranty I would ask him to bypass the relay to a manual switch like most other units I looked at have. I just want it functioning to spec for resale value and piece of mind.
post #8523 of 9528
Quote:
Originally Posted by almadacr View Post

When you find the guilty speaker biggrin.gif at the end of your speaker wire your connections are +/+ and -/- and it's correct , what changes ... it's the wiring inside your speaker so what you can do is in the back of your speaker change the + for - and the - for + no need to touch the speaker ( i advise only to someone who as the knowledge to change wiring inside the speaker to do it ) but basically this does the trick .

I had a Sony receiver ES with KEF speaker's connected and when i bought a Pioneer it happen the same as you describe it . Wille running MCACC would give me a error and it would shut down during calibration .

You can always try this small things before sending it to be repair or changed wink.gif .

Wouldn't the problem have manifested itself in the last Onkyo receiver that those speakers were connected to in the same way for the past 5 years?

Got the new 818, all speakers plugged in as before and no meltdown. Doing room calibrations now. Fingers crossed!
Edited by samhfoley - 12/4/13 at 10:28pm
post #8524 of 9528
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan Olinski View Post

I can say this unit whether or not it is defective or whether I keep it most likely will only be used as a pre with separates I am in the process of acquiring. Until I hear it after servicing I can't say for sure but I am nearly confident in saying the amplifier of these units are garbage. The preamps seem stable function well and the xt32 is great but the amp is crap.
I can only agree with you. I don't know if it is somehow related to 4 Ohm switching or something else completely (through I can hear some difference in sound between the 4 and 6 Ohm setting), but the amps are heavily distorting crap, this is sad truth. I haven't done any deep investigation of this, but... I've heard clicking occasionally, even without any significant load (noticed it after reading your messages). Though I don't know how it affects the sound as I am using it with external amps now.
post #8525 of 9528
Quote:
Originally Posted by IgorZep View Post
 
I can only agree with you. I don't know if it is somehow related to 4 Ohm switching or something else completely (through I can hear some difference in sound between the 4 and 6 Ohm setting), but the amps are heavily distorting crap, this is sad truth. 

 

Igor, have you measured these amps and have some objective evidence that the amps are distorting?  What form is the distortion taking?

 

As you know, I am of the firm belief that properly designed, modern Solid State amps (which includes all of the amps we are discussing in this thread),  working within their design parameters and not driven into clipping, have been proven numerous times, in properly conducted blind ABX tests, to be sonically indistinguishable from one another. So I am very interested in your comments and evidence, as I know you approach these things with a scientific mind.

post #8526 of 9528
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Igor, have you measured these amps and have some objective evidence that the amps are distorting?  What form is the distortion taking?

As you know, I am of the firm belief that properly designed, modern Solid State amps (which includes all of the amps we are discussing in this thread),  working within their design parameters and not driven into clipping, have been proven numerous times, in properly conducted blind ABX tests, to be sonically indistinguishable from one another. So I am very interested in your comments and evidence, as I know you approach these things with a scientific mind.

Please provide objective data that all amps being discussed are properly designed as you say.
post #8527 of 9528
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wryker View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post

I havent noticed any clicking or audio quality issues. .


I can confirm that the unit DOES click when it's changing audio formats. I have not viewed, exactly, when it's changing/what's causing it since I have the front covered with black-out paper to keep my room 'dark'. It doesn't happen watching a blu-ray, etc - it happens when watching TV/Cable. My guess is some commercials are not in 5.1 but 2.0 so the AVR 'clicks' over to that format when it occurs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post

I hear that when it goes from 5.1 to 2.0, or vice versa for sure. As you say, certain commercials.

For anyone interested....

How to stop the "clicks" when viewing your sat/cab (or any other source) source is to set it so 2.0 content plays back in dolby PLII mode in the menu settings. The "clicking" are relays for speaker sets turning off/on. Setting to a fake surround mode will keep your tv source in surround mode all the time therefore not shutting off the relays while watching DD 5.1 content and a Stereo 2.0 commercial comes on.
post #8528 of 9528
That explains a lot. I should have said "heard" because I dont anymore and started questioning myself. It also makes sense because when you run audyssey, it clicks as the signals go around the room.
post #8529 of 9528
Quote:
Originally Posted by MUDCAT45 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Igor, have you measured these amps and have some objective evidence that the amps are distorting?  What form is the distortion taking?

As you know, I am of the firm belief that properly designed, modern Solid State amps (which includes all of the amps we are discussing in this thread),  working within their design parameters and not driven into clipping, have been proven numerous times, in properly conducted blind ABX tests, to be sonically indistinguishable from one another. So I am very interested in your comments and evidence, as I know you approach these things with a scientific mind.

Please provide objective data that all amps being discussed are properly designed as you say.

 

There isn’t really any need to do so - amps made by mainstream manufacturers such as Onkyo, Denon, Emo etc etc are all going to be 'properly designed'. Designing amps is very, very easy and all the problems were solved decades ago. I included those words because often someone who thinks he is smarter than he is will come back and say something like "what about a 10 dollar Chinese amp off eBay then?" or they will point to an amp that has been deliberately designed to have a distortion as part of the design (amp as tone control). Modern amps just amplify - they take the input and pass it to the output totally unchanged in any way other than in amplitude.

post #8530 of 9528
Quote:
Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post

That explains a lot. I should have said "heard" because I dont anymore and started questioning myself. It also makes sense because when you run audyssey, it clicks as the signals go around the room.

Its because Onkyo use good mechanical relays in their design instead of the often inferior electronic relays. Mechanical relays click.

post #8531 of 9528
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Its because Onkyo use good mechanical relays in their design instead of the often inferior electronic relays. Mechanical relays click.

Ah. Always wondered why they click and Denons dont.

I have noticed, if the Onkyo just sits there for awhile with no signal it'll click too. Guess its turning off all outputs? I need to test that again while Im thinking about it to make sure Im accurate their. I just remember the Onkyo being on for some reason while I was working in the living room, but nothing was going to it. Out of the blue it just clicked.
post #8532 of 9528
Quote:
Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Its because Onkyo use good mechanical relays in their design instead of the often inferior electronic relays. Mechanical relays click.

Ah. Always wondered why they click and Denons dont.

I have noticed, if the Onkyo just sits there for awhile with no signal it'll click too. Guess its turning off all outputs? I need to test that again while Im thinking about it to make sure Im accurate their. I just remember the Onkyo being on for some reason while I was working in the living room, but nothing was going to it. Out of the blue it just clicked.

 

I haven’t noticed it clicking unless it is changing sound formats I must say. My 5509 is in a separate closet these days, outside the HT, so I never hear any clicking anyway nowadays.  BTW, I was not suggesting that Denon's electronic relays are inferior - just that this type of relay can be. 

post #8533 of 9528
Gotcha, but it explained a lot. I always wondered why the Onkyo was a clicker and the Denon was not.
post #8534 of 9528
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Igor, have you measured these amps and have some objective evidence that the amps are distorting?  What form is the distortion taking?
No, this piece of metal sucked so much energy already so I am not motivated to fight with it further... It is enough for me that is it clearly audible when comparing to the properly designed amps smile.gif

The distortion sounds like... just the dirty sound. The most annoying is harsh, screaming (and even painful at high volumes) high frequencies. Although significant coloration can be heart in the midrange and even at bass frequencies. This is at any listening volume, so no clipping or going outside of the design parameters. The voice intelligibility is totally missing at low volumes. If I had serious trouble understanding the speech in the movies at -15dB MV already when listening through the 818 internal amps I can now easily understand everything at -30dB MV (level matched) without any fatiguing and strain, and probably I can go even bellow, just don't need to do it as this is already not disturbing the neighbors at night smile.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

As you know, I am of the firm belief that properly designed, modern Solid State amps (which includes all of the amps we are discussing in this thread),  working within their design parameters and not driven into clipping, have been proven numerous times, in properly conducted blind ABX tests, to be sonically indistinguishable from one another.
I am in complete agreement that properly designed amps should be and actually are indistinguishable from one another... On another side after listening to some other receivers besides mine last year I came to the conclusion that it is not uncommon these days to have improperly designed amps bundled with them. frown.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

So I am very interested in your comments and evidence, as I know you approach these things with a scientific mind.
There is no much point to measuring just one receiver. I am sure there will be something explaining the sonic difference. Actually even the manufacturer specs are not extremely promising already with a 0.08% declared distortion - this is a lot and the spectrum is unknown, probably not the best one. Probably I would make some distortion measurements if I had a good low-distortion low-noise ADC, unfortunately I don't have such at the moment. The really interesting would be the possibility to compare this data to other receivers/amps, but I only have what I have, and there is no available measurement data for the others (except some very very rare cases)...

Unfortunately the way how some (probably all?) magazines make measurements is also telling nothing about the sonics of an amp - 1kHz is not the only signal they would amplify. And figures often are a lot (sometimes orders of magnitude) better at 1kHz than at the borders of the audible frequency range. It looks like measuring honestly is not in interest of the most modern players on the market today.
post #8535 of 9528
I guess I dont get the distortion. I went from a 33xxCI Denon to the 818. Both were used during normal HDTV at around -12.0db and blurays at around -2.0 to 0.0db volume. They sound great.

Ive been considering trying a Yamaha 2020 because Ive never owned one, just a little hesitant to leave Audyssey.
post #8536 of 9528
Quote:
Originally Posted by IgorZep View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Igor, have you measured these amps and have some objective evidence that the amps are distorting?  What form is the distortion taking?
No, this piece of metal sucked so much energy already so I am not motivated to fight with it further... It is enough for me that is it clearly audible when comparing to the properly designed amps smile.gif

The distortion sounds like... just the dirty sound. The most annoying is harsh, screaming (and even painful at high volumes) high frequencies. Although significant coloration can be heart in the midrange and even at bass frequencies. This is at any listening volume, so no clipping or going outside of the design parameters. The voice intelligibility is totally missing at low volumes. If I had serious trouble understanding the speech in the movies at -15dB MV already when listening through the 818 internal amps I can now easily understand everything at -30dB MV (level matched) without any fatiguing and strain, and probably I can go even bellow, just don't need to do it as this is already not disturbing the neighbors at night smile.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

As you know, I am of the firm belief that properly designed, modern Solid State amps (which includes all of the amps we are discussing in this thread),  working within their design parameters and not driven into clipping, have been proven numerous times, in properly conducted blind ABX tests, to be sonically indistinguishable from one another.
I am in complete agreement that properly designed amps should be and actually are indistinguishable from one another... On another side after listening to some other receivers besides mine last year I came to the conclusion that it is not uncommon these days to have improperly designed amps bundled with them. frown.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

So I am very interested in your comments and evidence, as I know you approach these things with a scientific mind.
There is no much point to measuring just one receiver. I am sure there will be something explaining the sonic difference. Actually even the manufacturer specs are not extremely promising already with a 0.08% declared distortion - this is a lot and the spectrum is unknown, probably not the best one. Probably I would make some distortion measurements if I had a good low-distortion low-noise ADC, unfortunately I don't have such at the moment. The really interesting would be the possibility to compare this data to other receivers/amps, but I only have what I have, and there is no available measurement data for the others (except some very very rare cases)...

Unfortunately the way how some (probably all?) magazines make measurements is also telling nothing about the sonics of an amp - 1kHz is not the only signal they would amplify. And figures often are a lot (sometimes orders of magnitude) better at 1kHz than at the borders of the audible frequency range. It looks like measuring honestly is not in interest of the most modern players on the market today.

 

Thanks Igor. I don't really know what to reply. I believe that you are hearing what you are hearing but I am amazed that a mainstream AVR would have an unsatisfactory amp in it. I wonder if there was a batch that were faulty?

post #8537 of 9528
It's a mechanical relay, looks like it's 1 per channel? Hence if you change formats it clicks to turn the discrete circuits on/off, you can hear it while doing the Auddysey calibration.

Denon clicks as well, except they do it on startup and I'm guessing they only got 1 relay, and it's always on from that point.
post #8538 of 9528
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Thanks Igor. I don't really know what to reply. I believe that you are hearing what you are hearing but I am amazed that a mainstream AVR would have an unsatisfactory amp in it. I wonder if there was a batch that were faulty?

Knowing how a lot of the technology is done today I am not amazed at all, although sad to see it from a reputable brand.

Actually I have a guess what is happening. I've had a talk with a guy from russian forum who is working in the repair facility. He told that it is more than common for the modern Onkyo receivers (and not only them, but many other brands also) to have idle current set at something like less than 5mA, while it should be at something like 35mA by the service manual. This is quite enough of heat at idle and my 818 is hardly warm at all above the amps while idle. It should dissipate a lot more heat with the right adjustment. So probability it is really working as a class B amp instead of the designed class AB mode. This could explain all if it is the case.

If I will own it after it's warranty expires I think I'll open it and verify smile.gif
post #8539 of 9528
Quote:
Originally Posted by IgorZep View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Thanks Igor. I don't really know what to reply. I believe that you are hearing what you are hearing but I am amazed that a mainstream AVR would have an unsatisfactory amp in it. I wonder if there was a batch that were faulty?

Knowing how a lot of the technology is done today I am not amazed at all, although sad to see it from a reputable brand.

Actually I have a guess what is happening. I've had a talk with a guy from russian forum who is working in the repair facility. He told that it is more than common for the modern Onkyo receivers (and not only them, but many other brands also) to have idle current set at something like less than 5mA, while it should be at something like 35mA by the service manual. This is quite enough of heat at idle and my 818 is hardly warm at all above the amps while idle. It should dissipate a lot more heat with the right adjustment. So probability it is really working as a class B amp instead of the designed class AB mode. This could explain all if it is the case.

If I will own it after it's warranty expires I think I'll open it and verify smile.gif

 

Interesting stuff - thanks. I’d love to know the results of you opening it up if you do still have it after the warranty expires.

post #8540 of 9528
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Interesting stuff - thanks. I’d love to know the results of you opening it up if you do still have it after the warranty expires.

Sure smile.gif

This topic pushed me to go through my old measurements and look at the distortion graphs. I could not remember all the settings/levels, but there are several 'control' measurements from the speaker outs, close to 1W level with some variations... There is something really weird on the graphs! Distortion is around 0.5% to 3% eek.gif - varies heavily depending on the signal level. I believe what I see is the distortion of the amp and not of the measurement gear (but everything might happen), at least it doesn't look like it is, for preouts I have measurements with numbers less than 0.1%. Hmm.. I guess I have to redo it systematically.
Edited by IgorZep - 12/5/13 at 12:36pm
post #8541 of 9528
3%, ouch.
post #8542 of 9528
Quote:
Originally Posted by IgorZep View Post

Sure smile.gif

This topic pushed me to go through my old measurements and look at the distortion graphs. I could not remember all the settings/levels, but there are several 'control' measurements from the speaker outs, close to 1W level with some variations... There is something really weird on the graphs! Distortion is around 0.5% to 3% eek.gif - varies heavily depending on the signal level. I believe what I see is the distortion of the amp and not of the measurement gear (but everything might happen), at least it doesn't look like it is, for preouts I have measurements with numbers less than 0.1%. Hmm.. I guess I have to redo it systematically.

How are you doing the measurements?
post #8543 of 9528
Quote:
Originally Posted by coli View Post

How are you doing the measurements?

Ordinary REW sweeps... Nothing special. But had a really crappy sound card, so don't mind about the numbers, the measurements was done for other purposes so interpreting it to something meaningful is not possible in this form and those numbers are unreliable.
post #8544 of 9528
Quote:
Originally Posted by IgorZep View Post

Ordinary REW sweeps... Nothing special. But had a really crappy sound card, so don't mind about the numbers, the measurements was done for other purposes so interpreting it to something meaningful is not possible in this form and those numbers are unreliable.

Ah, then you are not measuring the amps. To truly measure it, you have to bypass the speaker. Go from pc -> device under test -> analog to usb converter -> pc.

EG: see http://archimago.blogspot.com/2013/10/measurements-onkyo-tx-nr1009-as-hdmi.html
post #8545 of 9528
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Its because Onkyo use good mechanical relays in their design instead of the often inferior electronic relays. Mechanical relays click.
you got that right...you should hear my crown amp on start-up. I would say twice as loud as what the 818 does.
post #8546 of 9528
Quote:
Originally Posted by coli View Post

Ah, then you are not measuring the amps. To truly measure it, you have to bypass the speaker. Go from pc -> device under test -> analog to usb converter -> pc.

EG: see http://archimago.blogspot.com/2013/10/measurements-onkyo-tx-nr1009-as-hdmi.html

You missed it, I told - it was electrical measurement(s) from speaker terminals, not acoustical from the mic. wink.gif
post #8547 of 9528
Quote:
Originally Posted by IgorZep View Post


I can only agree with you. I don't know if it is somehow related to 4 Ohm switching or something else completely (through I can hear some difference in sound between the 4 and 6 Ohm setting), but the amps are heavily distorting crap, this is sad truth. I haven't done any deep investigation of this, but... I've heard clicking occasionally, even without any significant load (noticed it after reading your messages). Though I don't know how it affects the sound as I am using it with external amps now.


I believe this preamp is great. The fact that Onkyo uses proper mechanical relays and the Xt32 is spectacular. I just wish I had a little more knowledge regarding the AV receiver deception and how these units are not 4 ohm rated. Marantz AV receiver regardless of cost rate their units at a minimum 6 ohm and do not lie for marketing reasons and sales. The expectation is put on the customer to know the difference between "continuous 6 Ohm" and " certified 4 ohm" performance. This is very deceptive. I was even mixed typing the quotes. I can say at this point though I like the unit in all but this issue I will never buy an Onkyo receiver again. Not because I don't believe it is a good product but because I absolutely and completely do not believe in supporting companies that are deceptive, which I believe this is a definite the case. When someone goes to say Best Buy or Future Shop and reads the specs for these systems they say clear as day 4 ohm rated and the simple fact is they are not. I'm sure there will be some As@#le out there that says something like why would you buy at such and such, well, that reason for eugenics has missed the point. The only bright side to this whole situation is after turning off these 8 Ohm mis-rated amplifiers and spending a whole pile of money on amps I now require. I have acquired a good preamp. As I'm sure many have seen the price of most decent preamps with XT32 I suppose this is an acceptable compromise. Ladies and Gentleman there is not a lot of point to having specs if the manufacturer lies to the distributor who passes the information on down the line. For that one reason and one reason alone Onkyo can suck it. Not for a bad product but for a product that it sold as something it is not. Good Day.

post #8548 of 9528
Greetings,

I have an Onkyo TX-NR 818 that I picked up in June 2012 for use in my living room system. It sees limited use at best and last week I turned it on to picture but no sound via HDMI. I monkeyed around with it for a bit figuring it had something to do with the Oppo Blu-ray player I had just swapped in. Then it dawned on me to power cycle the receiver which restored the sound. Since then each start up requires an additional power cycle to get the audio working. Additionally the network features don't work while the audio is not functioning.

This sounds like the beginning of what others have described as leading to a complete HDMI board failure. I have owned two Onkyo products, the PR-SC5508 pre/pro and this one. The 5508 suffered the well documented input cycling/IDE cable/board failure after 3 months. I sent it in for repair and continued to use it but when I heard about continuing problems with the HDMI boards I had to remove it from my reference system. The ticking time bomb thing just bugged me.

Here we go again. I am not happy at all and frankly can't in good conscience continue to recommend Onkyo products. Are there any other 818 owners that have had similar issues?

Regards,
post #8549 of 9528
Ralph, unfortunately it sound like you might be on to it.


Love you reviews BTW.
post #8550 of 9528
Isn't it still under warranty? And if your credit card extends the warranty by 1 year, you might be able to get your money back.
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