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Onkyo TX-NR818 "official" owner's thread discussion - Page 32

post #931 of 7035
7/7/12 at 6:18pm
Thread Starter 
Okay. Apparently this 24p video processing bug is a well known one.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1340545/onkyo-tx-nr709-owners-thread/1740#post_22199177

Unfortunately the recommended trick of holding down BD/DVD and pressing return so that video processing is set to "skip" does not appear to fix it on the 818, I still see the damn onkyo dropping frames.

Looks like since this problem has been plaguing onkyo models since at least 2010 and Onkyo refuses to fix it I will very possibly have to purchase something else.
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post #932 of 7035
7/7/12 at 6:45pm
Thread Starter 
Also, Rich, I got into some hidden menu last night that showed scaling and other things but nothing I try tonight is working for getting back into it.
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post #933 of 7035
7/7/12 at 9:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post

Also, Rich, I got into some hidden menu last night that showed scaling and other things but nothing I try tonight is working for getting back into it.

That is too bad.

I would be happy to try something here but I am not sure the results would be applicable.
Onkyo provides a great value, but I have come to a point where I think they have no idea how they operate. They have setting the the settings inte the audio adjust menu for dsd direct that radically alter the sound with no real explanation for what they do.

I have been been concerned about upgrading o the higher end models because they use two video processing chips. That just seems wrong to me. But in the spec world, I guess you have to havr 4K even if no one has a display that needs it.

- Rich
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post #934 of 7035
7/7/12 at 9:12pm
Thread Starter 
Ok guys. Sorry for all the thread pollution but this info will be useful for other owners or potential owners who use 24P extensively.

I think I have licked it. This is what I did. Press the BD/DVD button and while holding it press return. You will see on the front panel video processing. Change it to SKIP.

Then, reboot the 818. I actually yanked power and restarted it. Verify that the setting is still set to SKIP.

Problem now appears to be gone.

Onkyo needs to fix their ****. Basic 24P processing without dropping frames can be done by other manufacturers at the $199 price point. Absolutely unacceptable.

And Rich. I agree with you. Onkyo offers a good value but these trade offs are unacceptable, clearly video engineers at Onkyo are clueless.
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post #935 of 7035
7/7/12 at 9:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post

Hi guys. Motion smoothing is disabled on the VT30 which is in an ISF mode for viewing. The problem happens in both 96hz and 60hz mode for 24P direct on the TV.
Pure direct is a thought but I imagine that it would defeat XT32 which is one of the biggest reasons that I bought the 818 as an "upgrade" from my Yamaha RXV1800.
When I mentioned switching from auto to full I was referring to the setting on the 818 not the PC. In Catalyst Control Center I have all image processing disabled and even prevent CCC from running at startup.
Tempted to put the 1800 back in just to see if I am going crazy or not.
The best way to describe the problem is that it looks like the same video frame gets duplicated 2-4 times so that the picture just slightly jerks a little bit when something onscreen starts to move a certain way. According to XBMC no frames are being dropped. It looks a lot like some kind of video processing. It might happen once every 5-7 minutes or so but seems a bit random.
Maybe I will wipe the whole PC and reload it. I suppose I could also turn off 24P on the PC and try running 60fps but I expect the 3:2 pulldown would drive me nuts.
I don't have my pc connected to the receiver but when I set resolution to 1080p/24 I get the stutter on cable TV.
I only notice it in that resolution mode.
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post #936 of 7035
7/7/12 at 10:24pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sixtytooneratio View Post

I don't have my pc connected to the receiver but when I set resolution to 1080p/24 I get the stutter on cable TV.
I only notice it in that resolution mode.

The problem affects both my PC and my PS3, the problem is in the Onkyo. Even if it is set to Direct mode it is molesting the 23.976 FPS signal from the components en-route to my TV.
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post #937 of 7035
7/8/12 at 1:15am
Is this 1080p/24 problem present in the NR3009 model?
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post #938 of 7035
7/8/12 at 5:51am
I
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post

Ok guys. Sorry for all the thread pollution but this info will be useful for other owners or potential owners who use 24P extensively.
I think I have licked it. This is what I did. Press the BD/DVD button and while holding it press return. You will see on the front panel video processing. Change it to SKIP.
Then, reboot the 818. I actually yanked power and restarted it. Verify that the setting is still set to SKIP.
Problem now appears to be gone.
Onkyo needs to fix their ****. Basic 24P processing without dropping frames can be done by other manufacturers at the $199 price point. Absolutely unacceptable.
And Rich. I agree with you. Onkyo offers a good value but these trade offs are unacceptable, clearly video engineers at Onkyo are clueless.
My 807 barbecue grill manual(818 is replacement)says that THX recommends running the skip feature.
I don't think thats stated in the 818 manual.
I tried that process but it doesn"t work on my unit.
I still have the original firmware,wondering if that makes a difference?
Edited by sixtytooneratio - 7/8/12 at 5:59am
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post #939 of 7035
7/8/12 at 5:58am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post

Ok guys. Sorry for all the thread pollution but this info will be useful for other owners or potential owners who use 24P extensively.
I think I have licked it. This is what I did. Press the BD/DVD button and while holding it press return. You will see on the front panel video processing. Change it to SKIP.
Then, reboot the 818. I actually yanked power and restarted it. Verify that the setting is still set to SKIP.
Problem now appears to be gone.

Glad to hear that you got it fixed and that Skip still works.
There are a ton of adjustments in the video processor but without some kind of direct software control they are not going to get used.

We are now at a point that video is better reviewed than audio.
Displays are measured for accuracy but audio devices are reviewed for "transparancy and lack of grain" smile.gif

Pure, Direct, Stereo, DAC direct all make significant changes to the sound but has anyone ever read a review that measures why they do?

Ok, I feel better getting that odd my chest smile.gif

- Rich
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post #940 of 7035
7/8/12 at 6:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by sixtytooneratio View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post

Hi guys. Motion smoothing is disabled on the VT30 which is in an ISF mode for viewing. The problem happens in both 96hz and 60hz mode for 24P direct on the TV.
Pure direct is a thought but I imagine that it would defeat XT32 which is one of the biggest reasons that I bought the 818 as an "upgrade" from my Yamaha RXV1800.
When I mentioned switching from auto to full I was referring to the setting on the 818 not the PC. In Catalyst Control Center I have all image processing disabled and even prevent CCC from running at startup.
Tempted to put the 1800 back in just to see if I am going crazy or not.
The best way to describe the problem is that it looks like the same video frame gets duplicated 2-4 times so that the picture just slightly jerks a little bit when something onscreen starts to move a certain way. According to XBMC no frames are being dropped. It looks a lot like some kind of video processing. It might happen once every 5-7 minutes or so but seems a bit random.
Maybe I will wipe the whole PC and reload it. I suppose I could also turn off 24P on the PC and try running 60fps but I expect the 3:2 pulldown would drive me nuts.
I don't have my pc connected to the receiver but when I set resolution to 1080p/24 I get the stutter on cable TV.
I only notice it in that resolution mode.

that would be expected... don't try to convert cable tv to 24p.... video framerate does not play well with film frame rate (as you are seeing)...

the other issue though, probably should be corrected, especially since an earlier reviewer heaped praise upon the video section of the avr...
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post #941 of 7035
7/8/12 at 7:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post

The problem affects both my PC and my PS3, the problem is in the Onkyo. Even if it is set to Direct mode it is molesting the 23.976 FPS signal from the components en-route to my TV.

So if you send in Blu ray from your PS3 at 1080p/24 (which is best for Blu ray) it is having an issue? That should go thru fine. As for converting Cable to 1080p/24, why? Just send out 1080p/60 for TV. Not sure why you would want to convert cable to 1080p/24... eek.gif
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post #942 of 7035
7/8/12 at 7:56am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by joerod View Post

So if you send in Blu ray from your PS3 at 1080p/24 (which is best for Blu ray) it is having an issue? That should go thru fine. As for converting Cable to 1080p/24, why? Just send out 1080p/60 for TV. Not sure why you would want to convert cable to 1080p/24... eek.gif

Yes, with the PS3 set to 1080P/24, going through the 818, it is dropping frames. It is especially noticeable during slow pans, etc. I'm surprised with the setup you have that you did not see this happening, but it is definitely doing it. The HTPC also has the problem, and what's interesting there is that from the PC perspective there are no frame drops, which means that the frame-rate conversion and dropping is happening between the 818 and the TV. The most likely explanation is that Onkyo screws up 23.976 and passes it as 24.00 which would account for what I am seeing, one dropped frame every 40 seconds or so.

I am very sensitive to video problems, and picked up on this crap right away. Fortunately (fingers crossed) the video skip holds between restarts of the AVR and I don't have to deal with this problem any longer.
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post #943 of 7035
7/8/12 at 8:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post

Yes, with the PS3 set to 1080P/24, going through the 818, it is dropping frames.

What type of signal is the 818 reporting for video input and output in that situation?
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post #944 of 7035
7/8/12 at 8:32am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

What type of signal is the 818 reporting for video input and output in that situation?

it shows both 1920X1080 24FPS input and output.

Converting true 23.976 output to a flat 24.000 signal is an extremely common and incredibly rookie mistake to make. The fact that Onkyo models going back to at least 2010 are known to suffer from this glitch is absolutely inexcusable.

If someone wants to see the problem, all they need to do is make sure their BD player is set to 1080p/24 output and then run something that has a long slow pan (I believe in another thread it was recommended to run the Spears and Munsil test disc) and you will clearly see the dropping of frames, assuming that you have a large enough TV to see it (and of course that your TV is set for straight 24P input).

I fought a hell of a lot of problems with proper 23.976 output when I got my new TV and had problems with my PC setup, so once I got it set up properly (no frames dropping) and actually enjoyed watching films on it, seeing the problem come back was particularly annoying.
Edited by jmpage2 - 7/8/12 at 8:38am
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post #945 of 7035
7/8/12 at 8:41am
So skipping video processing is the way to go even with 2012 models. Bummer.

I was always wondering why AVR makers don't offer cheaper models that don't do any video processing but concentrate on truely useful audio features like MultEQ XT32.
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post #946 of 7035
7/8/12 at 9:41am
I only use my Onkyo AVRs to take 1080i Satelite and pop out 1080p. My PS3 and 360 both send in 1080p/60. My Blu ray players have Dual HDMI outs. Only audio is sent to the 3009, 818, 3010 or whatever I am using. I will jump on this 1080p/24 issue with them first thing tomorrow AM.
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post #947 of 7035
7/8/12 at 10:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by joerod View Post

So if you send in Blu ray from your PS3 at 1080p/24 (which is best for Blu ray) it is having an issue? That should go thru fine. As for converting Cable to 1080p/24, why? Just send out 1080p/60 for TV. Not sure why you would want to convert cable to 1080p/24... eek.gif
Just tinkering:)
Through works just fine.
FWIW,I get NO stutter when watching blue ray on my fat PS3.PIcture is EXCELLENT!
Picture is so good I can see pores on actors faces.Suprising how poor some of their skin is.
Even makeup doesn't help.biggrin.gif
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post #948 of 7035
7/8/12 at 10:33am
not sure if there was a final answer on this - as it was discussed several pages ago. With regards to the Zone 2 trigger out commands, will I still need to go the route of asking Logitech Support to add the Zone 2 power on command to my account via the pronto hex code as detailed in the below threads - or is there an easier way to do this now?

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1063782/official-onkyo-tx-sr806-reciever-thread/1290#post_17020897

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1083392/onkyo-pr-sc886p-pre-pro-official-thread/1020#post_16549421
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post #949 of 7035
7/8/12 at 11:30am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sixtytooneratio View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by joerod View Post

So if you send in Blu ray from your PS3 at 1080p/24 (which is best for Blu ray) it is having an issue? That should go thru fine. As for converting Cable to 1080p/24, why? Just send out 1080p/60 for TV. Not sure why you would want to convert cable to 1080p/24... eek.gif
Just tinkering:)
Through works just fine.
FWIW,I get NO stutter when watching blue ray on my fat PS3.PIcture is EXCELLENT!
Picture is so good I can see pores on actors faces.Suprising how poor some of their skin is.
Even makeup doesn't help.biggrin.gif

Your PS3 is set for 24p? By default it is not. What model TV? What is displayed when you hit info on the AVR and display the in and out video framerate?
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post #950 of 7035
7/8/12 at 2:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by joerod View Post

So if you send in Blu ray from your PS3 at 1080p/24 (which is best for Blu ray) it is having an issue? That should go thru fine. As for converting Cable to 1080p/24, why? Just send out 1080p/60 for TV. Not sure why you would want to convert cable to 1080p/24... eek.gif

If you're watching film content, ideally you would want the VP to IVTC.
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post #951 of 7035
7/8/12 at 6:42pm
I just bought a 2 Klipsch RF-42 ll floorstanding speakers and 1 RC-42 ll center speaker to replace my former Onkyo HT-s9300THX 7.1 speakers (that came with the receiver which I replaced with 818). Only trouble is that I just found out that Klipsch speakers I bought only has 75W when 818 puts out 135W max. My Onkyo speakers has 130W power outage which is closer to the 818 outage. Should I return the Klipsch and keep the Onkyo speakers? I would like some advice on what to do here. Klipsch website lists the speakers I bought as having 75W RMS/ 300W peak. What does this mean and does this mean Onkyo speakers are better than Klipsch? Please help.
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post #952 of 7035
7/8/12 at 7:48pm
Thread Starter 
Wattage ratings of the speakers has nothing to do with one sounding better than the other. Onkyo is not known for making quality speakers, more than likely the Klipsch speakers will sound better regardless of the specs you are referencing.
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post #953 of 7035
7/8/12 at 8:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post

Wattage ratings of the speakers has nothing to do with one sounding better than the other. Onkyo is not known for making quality speakers, more than likely the Klipsch speakers will sound better regardless of the specs you are referencing.
But I was told by the sales person that not enough wattage means that if I turn the volume too high that it could blow the speakers. Is that true?
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post #954 of 7035
7/8/12 at 8:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post

Your PS3 is set for 24p? By default it is not. What model TV? What is displayed when you hit info on the AVR and display the in and out video framerate?
The display shows multi channel 5:1 pcm 48hz fs,1080p/24->1080p/24,Samsung 42" ln46a650lf.When I press info button on TV it shows 1920x1080@24Hz
Thats with a blue ray playing.
Edited by sixtytooneratio - 7/8/12 at 8:37pm
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post #955 of 7035
7/8/12 at 9:05pm
Thread Starter 
Interesting. Maybe others can confirm the problem that I have seen. It is also possible that there is a problem between the 818 and my VT30 plasma but this seems unlikely.

I know what I saw, having troubleshot frame drop problems before.

Hopefully others can confirm it.
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post #956 of 7035
7/9/12 at 2:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dumbasbell View Post

But I was told by the sales person that not enough wattage means that if I turn the volume too high that it could blow the speakers. Is that true?

Never believe anything that a salesperson, (especially those idiots at Best Buy),
tells you about audio/video equipment.

If your a frequent visitor to this forum, then you probably no more than they do.
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post #957 of 7035
7/9/12 at 3:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post

It is also possible that there is a problem between the 818 and my VT30 plasma but this seems unlikely.

Is the time between frame drops constant?
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post #958 of 7035
7/9/12 at 6:32am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

Is the time between frame drops constant?

It's hard to say. To detect a frame drop there needs to be motion on the screen and it's not always obvious that it has happened. Other times, it is VERY obvious that it has happened, which is why the problem is annoying. All I know is that I was getting intermittent frame drops frequently and after bypassing the video in the 818 they no longer appear to be occurring.
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post #959 of 7035
7/9/12 at 6:39am
I'm wondering what causes this problem. Do you have Blu-rays with 24p and 23.976p that you could test?
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post #960 of 7035
7/9/12 at 6:59am
what does the 818 have that the Denon 4311 doesn't, and vice versa?

By my estimation here are the differences that matter to me (Onkyo vs Denon) in order of importance

There is a price difference but I won't mention how much - in order for the difference to matter I'd have to buy the 818 online whereas I could buy the 4311 locally for a discount
# of internal amps - 7 vs 9
Zone 1 trigger out - NO vs YES
Power - 135 vs 140

The things that are important to me where they are identical:

# HDMI outputs
At least 5.1 preouts
Audyssey MultEQ XT32
Highly functioning iPhone / iPad apps
# of audio zones
2 year warranty

I really wish that the 818 had the Zone 2 HDMI feature that the new higher end AVRs that multiple manufacturers offer (Yammy's xx20s, Pio SC-66 and above, Denon 3313, Onkyo 1010 and above, etc). I don't need that functionality now but I could see how useful it could be in the future. It could theoretically allow you to only need 1 cable / satellite receiver in your entire house, but I digress. It would also be nice to have an AVR close to the price point of these two that had a Zone 2 Subwoofer out.

Am I missing anything that may be of importance?

Am I missing anything that may be of importance when choosing?
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