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Onkyo TX-NR818 "official" owner's thread discussion - Page 33

post #961 of 7007
7/9/12 at 7:40am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

I'm wondering what causes this problem. Do you have Blu-rays with 24p and 23.976p that you could test?

Markus,

The most likely explanation for the problem is that when the Onkyo has its video processing active (which apparently it does even when it is in Through or Direct modes) it is taking a 23.976 input (which is the standard for NTSC Blu-Rays) and it is outputting them to the display at 24.00 FPS.

If you take a 23.976 input signal and send it out as 24.00 fps then you will drop a frame about every 40 seconds. Whether or not you see the dropped frame depends on a lot of things, like, the frequency of the TV (some TVs with 120hz processing and/or motion smoothing might make the problem less noticeable but also make the movie look more "video-like" with what is often described as a soap opera video effect), what is happening on-screen at the time of the frame-drop (action vs a static shot), etc.

I should point out that many people won't notice a problem like this. They either don't have their TV set up for 24P playback, they have a lot of video processing turned on, or they simply don't notice video glitches. For someone like me who really likes film, has a high end 24P capable display that is very large, and has the TV set up in a calibrated ISF mode displaying at a 24P multiple (in my case 96hz and 60hz both actually show the problem) then the problem is very irritating because you see a small stutter during playback every so often, making playback look "jerky".

I can't test with 24.00 because I don't have any 24.00 content. All north american Blu-ray discs should be mastered at 23.976 FPS.

One way to test this problem out would be to connect a TV or test set to the HDMI output of the Onkyo that displays the EXACT frame-rate it is receiving. If a US blu-ray source at "24FPS" is being sent to the Onkyo, it is actually a 23.976 signal, and that should be shown on the TV or test unit receiving the signal from the Onkyo and display "23.976" but I expect it would actually show "24.000"... proving that there is a breakage.
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post #962 of 7007
7/9/12 at 8:03am
Called in. Let's hope for a quick firmware fix. smile.gif
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post #963 of 7007
7/9/12 at 8:05am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by joerod View Post

Called in. Let's hope for a quick firmware fix. smile.gif

Joe, did you verify it?

I know you have contacts with Onkyo but I am not optimistic about a fix as apparently this problem has existed in at least the consumer level products for a couple of years.

If you want to contact me via PM please do so, I'd be happy to explain to Onkyo engineers what the problem is so they understand what it will take to fix it. In my day job I am a video solutions engineer for a telecom company, so I probably speak the same language as the video and FW engineers at Onkyo.
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post #964 of 7007
7/9/12 at 8:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by LansdaleHokie View Post

what does the 818 have that the Denon 4311 doesn't, and vice versa?
By my estimation here are the differences that matter to me (Onkyo vs Denon) in order of importance
There is a price difference but I won't mention how much - in order for the difference to matter I'd have to buy the 818 online whereas I could buy the 4311 locally for a discount
# of internal amps - 7 vs 9
Zone 1 trigger out - NO vs YES
Power - 135 vs 140
The things that are important to me where they are identical:
# HDMI outputs
At least 5.1 preouts
Audyssey MultEQ XT32
Highly functioning iPhone / iPad apps
# of audio zones
2 year warranty
I really wish that the 818 had the Zone 2 HDMI feature that the new higher end AVRs that multiple manufacturers offer (Yammy's xx20s, Pio SC-66 and above, Denon 3313, Onkyo 1010 and above, etc). I don't need that functionality now but I could see how useful it could be in the future. It could theoretically allow you to only need 1 cable / satellite receiver in your entire house, but I digress. It would also be nice to have an AVR close to the price point of these two that had a Zone 2 Subwoofer out.
Am I missing anything that may be of importance?
Am I missing anything that may be of importance when choosing?

The 4311 has SubEQ which independently sets the phase/distance and level for two subs. Although the Onkyo has two sub outs, it treats them as one sub. This does not matter to me as I can set those parameters using minidsp, SPL meter, and REW.

The onkyo has 4k video processing, not sure how big of a deal that is today, how many 4k displays and sources do you have?

I just pulled the trigger on the Onkyo to save the 250ish price diff but I'm getting a little worried given some of the issues that have been brought up here in the past couple days. Considered cancelling and going with the 4311, but I am going to give the onkyo a shot.

Also note there are work arounds for the lack of zone 1 trigger on the onkyo, for instance use a macro capable remote and when you pick an activity using the AVR have the macro also enable zone 2 to turn on the amp. This is also important to me as I use an amp so I better be able to get this working or I'm going to be bitter.
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post #965 of 7007
7/9/12 at 10:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dstew100 View Post

The 4311 has SubEQ which independently sets the phase/distance and level for two subs. Although the Onkyo has two sub outs, it treats them as one sub. This does not matter to me as I can set those parameters using minidsp, SPL meter, and REW.
The onkyo has 4k video processing, not sure how big of a deal that is today, how many 4k displays and sources do you have?
I just pulled the trigger on the Onkyo to save the 250ish price diff but I'm getting a little worried given some of the issues that have been brought up here in the past couple days. Considered cancelling and going with the 4311, but I am going to give the onkyo a shot.
Also note there are work arounds for the lack of zone 1 trigger on the onkyo, for instance use a macro capable remote and when you pick an activity using the AVR have the macro also enable zone 2 to turn on the amp. This is also important to me as I use an amp so I better be able to get this working or I'm going to be bitter.

I just helped a friend setup his onkyo 818 with two subs. You just need to run auto setup /audyssey till both subs are at the same volume level and distance as set by audyssey. You do that by running one sub at a time till they both are set to the same distance and level. Thats the best you can do with the limited audyssey software in the onkyo 818. Of course the audyssey filters will not be at there best. You may judge for yorself and find that using one sub sounds best over using two. We found that one sub for music and that was the sub audyssey filtered last sounds best for music. He only uses the second sub for movies, for that big bang effect.

As for your long term love affair, spend the money and get what you really want or forever hold your piece.
I own a 4311, the 818 is a fine unit in everyway and sound as good if not better than the 4311, but the two sub issue is your choice..
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post #966 of 7007
7/9/12 at 12:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by beergut99 View Post

You just need to run auto setup /audyssey till both subs are at the same volume level and distance as set by audyssey. You do that by running one sub at a time till they both are set to the same distance and level.

That's not how the calibration process is described in the manual. Is the level setup not just one step for both subs or did you guys just connect one sub after the other?
Quote:
Originally Posted by beergut99 View Post

Thats the best you can do with the limited audyssey software in the onkyo 818.

Audyssey is not limited in the 818. It uses XT32, there's only one version.
Edited by markus767 - 7/9/12 at 12:54pm
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post #967 of 7007
7/9/12 at 12:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by dstew100 View Post

The 4311 has SubEQ which independently sets the phase/distance and level for two subs. Although the Onkyo has two sub outs, it treats them as one sub. This does not matter to me [...]

...nor should it matter to anybody else. Setting subs to the same distance and level is no guarantee for good low frequency reproduction.
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post #968 of 7007
7/9/12 at 3:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolcat4843 View Post

Never believe anything that a salesperson, (especially those idiots at Best Buy),
tells you about audio/video equipment.
If your a frequent visitor to this forum, then you probably no more than they do.
So what does having 75W vs. 130W mean in terms of speaker power?
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post #969 of 7007
7/9/12 at 4:05pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dumbasbell View Post

So what does having 75W vs. 130W mean in terms of speaker power?

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=understanding+speaker+power+ratings
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post #970 of 7007
7/9/12 at 4:43pm
So is this 24p frame dropping issue strictly a NTSC problem, I live in Australia and we use the PAL system. Thanks.
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post #971 of 7007
7/9/12 at 4:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by dumbasbell View Post

So what does having 75W vs. 130W mean in terms of speaker power?

Don't worry about it. It is more of a problem if the receiver/amp is under powered. If a amp is under powered, it can clip and damage your speakers.

Also, Klipsch speakers are high sensitivity and generally need little power to get relatively loud.
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post #972 of 7007
7/9/12 at 5:18pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrGadget77 View Post

So is this 24p frame dropping issue strictly a NTSC problem, I live in Australia and we use the PAL system. Thanks.

I am not sure, it would depend on if your video frame-rate for your 24P equipment there, as well as content is 24.000 or 23.976 and also of course how sensitive you are to frame drops. Some people aren't bothered by them.
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post #973 of 7007
7/9/12 at 6:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by LansdaleHokie View Post

what does the 818 have that the Denon 4311 doesn't, and vice versa?
By my estimation here are the differences that matter to me (Onkyo vs Denon) in order of importance
There is a price difference but I won't mention how much - in order for the difference to matter I'd have to buy the 818 online whereas I could buy the 4311 locally for a discount
# of internal amps - 7 vs 9
Zone 1 trigger out - NO vs YES
Power - 135 vs 140
The things that are important to me where they are identical:
# HDMI outputs
At least 5.1 preouts
Audyssey MultEQ XT32
Highly functioning iPhone / iPad apps
# of audio zones
2 year warranty
I really wish that the 818 had the Zone 2 HDMI feature that the new higher end AVRs that multiple manufacturers offer (Yammy's xx20s, Pio SC-66 and above, Denon 3313, Onkyo 1010 and above, etc). I don't need that functionality now but I could see how useful it could be in the future. It could theoretically allow you to only need 1 cable / satellite receiver in your entire house, but I digress. It would also be nice to have an AVR close to the price point of these two that had a Zone 2 Subwoofer out.
Am I missing anything that may be of importance?
Am I missing anything that may be of importance when choosing?

As the "proud" owner of a Denon 3808CI, vintage mid-2008, I will never buy another Denon product again. The unit had well documented conflicts with many Sony TV's that Denon was too proud to fix. (Randomly the HDMI signal is dropped with Sony's and a 10 second reconnect commences.) Also randomly, the settings of the Denon would change. Online updates by Denon Support ceased after only two years. Now at four years of age, our Denon unit requires regular hard reboots (turn off power and unplug) to come back to life. It is obviously on its last legs. In contrast, my 30-year old Sansui AU D9 Amplifier still works perfectly, go figure. The 3808CI was expensive enough ($1,600) and I am glad I did not buy a more expensive Denon - I will be happy to give Onkyo a try when the Denon goes completely kaput!
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post #974 of 7007
7/9/12 at 8:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

That's not how the calibration process is described in the manual. Is the level setup not just one step for both subs or did you guys just connect one sub after the other?
Run auto set up with just one sub (sub A), then disconnect sub A and connect sub B, rerun auto set up and adjust level (on sub B ) and distance of sub B by moving it around so it matchs sub A.
Than reconnect sub A and rerun auto set up with both subs, thats it, done.

The idea being sub A and B are equal (ex: 12 feet and -3db) You know it would be a mess if sub A needs 10 foot and -1db and sub B needs 14 feet and -5db. I hope this makes sense, if not, please feel free tell us why..


Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

Audyssey is not limited in the 818. It uses XT32, there's only one version.

I don't know for sure about that, between Onkyo and Denon both with XT32, I see adjustments in one menu and not the other, but it may not be a "audyssey thing" but its something, but both avrs get the job done..
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post #975 of 7007
7/9/12 at 9:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=understanding+speaker+power+ratings
The article says receiver/amplifier's RMS should match the speakers and Peaks should match the Peaks. I know the RMS/Peak of the speaker, but what is the RMS/Peak of the Onkyo 818 per channel?
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post #976 of 7007
7/9/12 at 9:20pm
When you use the SKIP command to remedy the 24p problem, does that turn off video processing for just that source or for all sources?
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post #977 of 7007
7/9/12 at 9:56pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nlpearman View Post

When you use the SKIP command to remedy the 24p problem, does that turn off video processing for just that source or for all sources?

For all sources apparently.
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post #978 of 7007
7/9/12 at 11:33pm
For a Level Calibration, I have Center at +5.5, Fronts at +7, and Surrounds at +8. Does this sound right? Also my Direct TV sounds great but for some reason Blu-Ray movies sounds to have too much bass on everyting(dialog and background). Why does Blu-Ray seem to sound less clear than Direct TV?
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post #979 of 7007
7/10/12 at 12:08am
Quote:
Originally Posted by beergut99 View Post

Run auto set up with just one sub (sub A), then disconnect sub A and connect sub B, rerun auto set up and adjust level (on sub B ) and distance of sub B by moving it around so it matchs sub A.
Than reconnect sub A and rerun auto set up with both subs, thats it, done.

But the settings for each sub will be lost when you run them together. It would only work if the subs have their own signal processing where you can set gain and delay. But then again, this step doesn't assure best sound quality.
Quote:
Originally Posted by beergut99 View Post

The idea being sub A and B are equal (ex: 12 feet and -3db) You know it would be a mess if sub A needs 10 foot and -1db and sub B needs 14 feet and -5db. I hope this makes sense, if not, please feel free tell us why..

Please see http://www.avsforum.com/t/1412714/onkyo-tx-nr818-official-owners-thread-discussion/630#post_22156381 and following posts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by beergut99 View Post

I don't know for sure about that, between Onkyo and Denon both with XT32, I see adjustments in one menu and not the other, but it may not be a "audyssey thing" but its something, but both avrs get the job done..

What menu are you talking about?
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post #980 of 7007
7/10/12 at 5:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by beergut99 View Post

You just need to run auto setup /audyssey till both subs are at the same volume level and distance as set by audyssey. You do that by running one sub at a time till they both are set to the same distance and level. Thats the best you can do with the limited audyssey software in the onkyo 818..

You can do better than that. Prior to audysey, use an SPL meter to level match the two subs and it can also help you get the phase settings right. Then let Audysey do its thing as if they were one sub. Are they two identical subs?
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post #981 of 7007
7/10/12 at 6:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dstew100 View Post

You can do better than that. Prior to audysey, use an SPL meter to level match the two subs and it can also help you get the phase settings right. Then let Audysey do its thing as if they were one sub. Are they two identical subs?

Audyssey is probably more accurate than most SPL meters. The Audyssey sub level setup is just there to bring the sub gain into the ballpark. Any peaks or dips that are present before running MulEQ have an impact on SPL anyway.

"Phase" shouldn't be used at all. It's really just a nonsense feature.

And, as I've said before, you can't adjust two subs individually in the 818.
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post #982 of 7007
7/10/12 at 6:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by nlpearman View Post

When you use the SKIP command to remedy the 24p problem, does that turn off video processing for just that source or for all sources?

For all sources apparently.

Whoa - not a good result.

Well done on finding this on the 818. I'm surprised we aren't more clear on this for other manufacturers.

However, doesn't some processing always need to be happening in order to overlay GUI elements (like volume) on an HDMI source?
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post #983 of 7007
7/10/12 at 7:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dstew100 View Post

The 4311 has SubEQ which independently sets the phase/distance and level for two subs. Although the Onkyo has two sub outs, it treats them as one sub. This does not matter to me as I can set those parameters using minidsp, SPL meter, and REW.
The onkyo has 4k video processing, not sure how big of a deal that is today, how many 4k displays and sources do you have?
I just pulled the trigger on the Onkyo to save the 250ish price diff but I'm getting a little worried given some of the issues that have been brought up here in the past couple days. Considered cancelling and going with the 4311, but I am going to give the onkyo a shot.
Also note there are work arounds for the lack of zone 1 trigger on the onkyo, for instance use a macro capable remote and when you pick an activity using the AVR have the macro also enable zone 2 to turn on the amp. This is also important to me as I use an amp so I better be able to get this working or I'm going to be bitter.


How is the 4311 only $250 more?? what kind of a deal is person getting on the Denon AVR-4311. I found you get the Onkyo 818 for about $950 or alittle cheaper online and Denon 4311 going for 2K online.

General 818 question
__________________
What value is XT32 processing if it treats both subwoofers as one. I thinking that 818 would be doing auto-correction for the peaks and valley's in the FeqRes in both subs independently? Is this correct?
Edited by chrisfromalbany - 7/10/12 at 8:21am
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post #984 of 7007
7/10/12 at 8:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by nlpearman View Post

Whoa - not a good result.
Well done on finding this on the 818. I'm surprised we aren't more clear on this for other manufacturers.
However, doesn't some processing always need to be happening in order to overlay GUI elements (like volume) on an HDMI source?

If it's like the other onkyo receivers, all GUI elements are gone.
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post #985 of 7007
7/10/12 at 8:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

Audyssey is probably more accurate than most SPL meters. The Audyssey sub level setup is just there to bring the sub gain into the ballpark. Any peaks or dips that are present before running MulEQ have an impact on SPL anyway.
That would depend on the quality of the SPL meter mic versus the audyssey mic and calibration. However even if the SPL meter is off, it will be off equally for both subs and you are just setting the two sub levels relative to each other. It sounds like you achieved that with audyssey though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

"Phase" shouldn't be used at all. It's really just a nonsense feature.
I do not subscribe to this school of thought although I do understand why some do. IMO there are better and worse settings for phase/distance. Are you claiming two out of phase subs will sound the same as subs that are in phase?
Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

And, as I've said before, you can't adjust two subs individually in the 818.
I understand the implications of not having SubEQ and have also stated them. Use the controls on the sub to get the two subs playing nicely together. Than let XT32 do its thing as if they were one sub. I picked up a minidsp to help with multiple subs but have not incorporated my older sub back in yet so have not started toying with it yet.
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post #986 of 7007
7/10/12 at 8:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dstew100 View Post

I understand the implications of not having SubEQ and have also stated them. Use the controls on the sub to get the two subs playing nicely together. Than let XT32 do its thing as if they were one sub. I picked up a minidsp to help with multiple subs but have not incorporated my older sub back in yet so have not started toying with it yet.

What if you have two subs for intermittent HomeTheater use and one primary sub for everyday use. Then either calibrate it for two subs and have it not calibrated for one.. or calibrate for one sub and not actually calibrated for two. I don't think there is a good answer I just trying to understand the limitations with this amp over two true EQed sub outs.
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post #987 of 7007
7/10/12 at 8:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisfromalbany View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by dstew100 View Post

The 4311 has SubEQ which independently sets the phase/distance and level for two subs. Although the Onkyo has two sub outs, it treats them as one sub. This does not matter to me as I can set those parameters using minidsp, SPL meter, and REW.
The onkyo has 4k video processing, not sure how big of a deal that is today, how many 4k displays and sources do you have?
I just pulled the trigger on the Onkyo to save the 250ish price diff but I'm getting a little worried given some of the issues that have been brought up here in the past couple days. Considered cancelling and going with the 4311, but I am going to give the onkyo a shot.
Also note there are work arounds for the lack of zone 1 trigger on the onkyo, for instance use a macro capable remote and when you pick an activity using the AVR have the macro also enable zone 2 to turn on the amp. This is also important to me as I use an amp so I better be able to get this working or I'm going to be bitter.


How is the 4311 only $250 more?? what kind of a deal is person getting on the Denon AVR-4311. I found you get the Onkyo 818 for about $950 or alittle cheaper online and Denon 4311 going for 2K online.

General 818 question
__________________
What value is XT32 processing if it treats both subwoofers as one. I thinking that 818 would be doing auto-correction for the peaks and valley's in the FeqRes in both subs independently? Is this correct?

it has been available for around that price from authorized dealers for a LONG time...

because what comes out of the subwoofers is dominated by the room. you want to eq the combined response...
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post #988 of 7007
7/10/12 at 8:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisfromalbany View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by dstew100 View Post

I understand the implications of not having SubEQ and have also stated them. Use the controls on the sub to get the two subs playing nicely together. Than let XT32 do its thing as if they were one sub. I picked up a minidsp to help with multiple subs but have not incorporated my older sub back in yet so have not started toying with it yet.

What if you have two subs for intermittent HomeTheater use and one primary sub for everyday use. Then either calibrate it for two subs and have it not calibrated for one.. or calibrate for one sub and not actually calibrated for two. I don't think there is a good answer I just trying to understand the limitations with this amp over two true EQed sub outs.

why would you want to do this?
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post #989 of 7007
7/10/12 at 8:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisfromalbany View Post

What value is XT32 processing if it treats both subwoofers as one. I thinking that 818 would be doing auto-correction for the peaks and valley's in the FeqRes in both subs independently? Is this correct?

No, it's not correct because the complex sum of two EQ'd subs will not sum to flat. EQing them as one is the prerequisite to achieve a flat response.
Edited by markus767 - 7/10/12 at 9:47am
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post #990 of 7007
7/10/12 at 9:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisfromalbany View Post

What if you have two subs for intermittent HomeTheater use and one primary sub for everyday use. Then either calibrate it for two subs and have it not calibrated for one.. or calibrate for one sub and not actually calibrated for two. I don't think there is a good answer I just trying to understand the limitations with this amp over two true EQed sub outs.

Is your "everyday use" music? Does it include TV+movies that just aren't the big bass action flix? Are you trying to do this because you don't normally want very much bass but you do for HT from time to time? The 818 won't be able to quickly switch back and forth between the two configs.

If your doing it for the amount of bass I think I'd XT32 them with both subs then just use the 818 sub level control to attenuate the level down for normal use (but still with both subs) and crank it back up when you want it for HT. Another solution would be to get an outboard DSP with PEQ such as some of the Behringers or minidsp that will let you switch settings back and forth relatively quickly. With some time tweaking and some tools you should be able to get a flatter response with multiple subs.
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