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100% Movie HT Room -- Speaker Upgrade?

post #1 of 61
5/29/12 at 8:18pm
Thread Starter 
I am currently running the HTD Level 3s in a 7 channel set up with a HSU VTF-15H sub. The room is approx 2100 cubic feet with the listening area in two rows. First row is seated at 7' and the second at 10'. I'm thinking about upgrading the LCR speakers. My budget is $3k. I currently am using a Denon 2807 and am thinking about getting an Emotiva XPA-5 to provide more power and use the Denon primarily as a preamp.

I'm looking for some places to start if there is a belief that I will get improved sound from the HTD speakers. I've looked at the Aperion speakers. Tempting because of the free return policy. Other thoughts?

If you need more info, let me know.

Rick
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post #2 of 61
5/29/12 at 8:45pm
Do you have an Acoustically transparent screen? I ask because it would be beneficial to have three identical speakers up front, not sure if that's what you have, or if you have a standard center channel?

I wouldn't really consider anything from Aperion an upgrade for a dedicated HT over what you currently have.

Instead of adding a 5 channel amp, you might consider just adding power for the front 3, and upgrading to a receiver with a newer version of audyssey like the Denon 2112 which has XT and can be had for $370

http://www.accessories4less.com/make...eceiver/1.html

If you got that with the XP3 instead of the XP5 you would only be out an extra $170.
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post #3 of 61
5/29/12 at 9:17pm
It looks like you want something with a little more detail
and clarity.
KEF Q900
http://www.vanns.com/shop/servlet/it..._c=site_search
KEF Q600
http://www.vanns.com/shop/servlet/it..._c=site_search
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post #4 of 61
5/29/12 at 9:19pm
With a $3000 budget, I'd consider the Ascend Acoustics Sierra Tower. There is also a matching horizontally-oriented center speaker available if you cannot accommodate three identical towers (which would be ideal).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay1 View Post

Instead of adding a 5 channel amp, you might consider just adding power for the front 3, and upgrading to a receiver with a newer version of audyssey like the Denon 2112 which has XT and can be had for $370

http://www.accessories4less.com/make...eceiver/1.html

That's a good idea, assuming that more power is actually needed for such a small room, but I don't think that the AVR-2112CI has 7.1 pre-outs.
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post #5 of 61
5/29/12 at 9:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Cook View Post

With a $3000 budget, I'd consider the Ascend Acoustics Sierra Tower. There is also a matching horizontally-oriented center speaker available if you cannot accommodate three identical towers (which would be ideal).



That's a good idea, assuming that more power is actually needed for such a small room, but I don't think that the AVR-2112CI has 7.1 pre-outs.

Total brain fart on my part , good call. I think the Onkyo 709 would be the cheapest to meet both criteria

http://www.accessories4less.com/make...eceiver/1.html
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post #6 of 61
5/30/12 at 5:19am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay1 View Post

Do you have an Acoustically transparent screen? I ask because it would be beneficial to have three identical speakers up front, not sure if that's what you have, or if you have a standard center channel?

I wouldn't really consider anything from Aperion an upgrade for a dedicated HT over what you currently have.

Instead of adding a 5 channel amp, you might consider just adding power for the front 3, and upgrading to a receiver with a newer version of audyssey like the Denon 2112 which has XT and can be had for $370

http://www.accessories4less.com/make...eceiver/1.html

If you got that with the XP3 instead of the XP5 you would only be out an extra $170.

Jay...thanks for the feedback. I don't have a transparent screen. So am I hearing you suggest that it's the amp and not the speakers I should be focusing on?
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post #7 of 61
5/30/12 at 5:20am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Cook View Post

With a $3000 budget, I'd consider the Ascend Acoustics Sierra Tower. There is also a matching horizontally-oriented center speaker available if you cannot accommodate three identical towers (which would be ideal).

That's a good idea, assuming that more power is actually needed for such a small room, but I don't think that the AVR-2112CI has 7.1 pre-outs.

This is the life of HT. One suggests amp upgrades as the focal point, the other suggests speakers. Guess I should just do both and be done with it....for now.
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post #8 of 61
5/30/12 at 5:23am
Why change? What is lacking from your HT experience? Can you link the speakers?
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post #9 of 61
5/30/12 at 5:25am
Biggest upgrade or improvement in sound will come from upgrading speakers. If you could afford the Ascend Acoustics Sierra Tower with the Horizon center channel, I am sure you would be very happy. Other brands that I think offer damn good for home theater are, Definitive Technology BP-2000's or simular Definitive speakers and, Klipsch heritage speakers such as the Hersey or Cornwall. Also, I highly suggest that you buy used speakers as you will get much more for your money that way.
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post #10 of 61
5/30/12 at 7:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by rick1969 View Post

Jay...thanks for the feedback. I don't have a transparent screen. So am I hearing you suggest that it's the amp and not the speakers I should be focusing on?

No, you just mentioned adding a 5 channel amp. I'm suggesting that you might get more from your money instead by only worrying about getting your front 3 on a separate amp, and adding a receiver with a better auto EQ.

What about your speakers sound do you find lacking? How much room do you have for the center? Could you fit something like this under your screen?

http://www.pispeakers.com/catalog/pr...products_id/97
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post #11 of 61
5/30/12 at 8:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Why change? What is lacking from your HT experience? Can you link the speakers?

Here's the link:
http://www.htd.com/Products/level-three-speakers

I too would like to know what is lacking. For a dedicated HT setup I am surprised no one has recommended high efficiency designs such as Chase Home Theater, Elemental Designs, JTR, etc.
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post #12 of 61
5/30/12 at 8:30am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

Here's the link:
http://www.htd.com/Products/level-three-speakers

I too would like to know what is lacking. For a dedicated HT setup I am surprised no one has recommended high efficiency designs such as Chase Home Theater, Elemental Designs, JTR, etc.

Patience grasshopper. I was just about to suggest some of those.


https://www.chasehometheater.com/ind...d=1&Itemid=142

Three of these would be nice and well under budget.
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post #13 of 61
5/30/12 at 8:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyng_fool View Post

Patience grasshopper. I was just about to suggest some of those.


https://www.chasehometheater.com/ind...d=1&Itemid=142

Three of these would be nice and well under budget.

Too late - LOL! Seriously, though, I think those CHT's would be sweet in his HT. Otherwise these:
http://www.edesignaudio.com/product_...oducts_id=1007
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post #14 of 61
5/30/12 at 9:34am
How loud do you listen and what are your goals for this? Those speakers will play 102 dBs max at your listening position and that is not assuming compression. If you want 90-100 dBs then you are probably fine. This is assuming you like the sound already. I don't know how many people heard this speaker to know what it can do so we are guessing. I know for a fact 3 SHO-10's will sound great as well as eD cinema 12's. However, you really only need a speaker than can play 115 dBs max so there are many choices out there, if reference is a concern. I talk about spl's all the time because it matters for dynamic peaks. You can have the best speaker in the world but if it compresses and distorts at 105 dB's it does not matter, the SHO-10 at 105 dBs will be better.
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post #15 of 61
5/30/12 at 9:34am
I've had my three sho-10's for six months, and couldn't be happier. They have great detail, and will play louder than I can handle. I'm currently using an Onkyo 806 to power them.
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post #16 of 61
5/30/12 at 9:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

How loud do you listen and what are your goals for this? Those speakers will play 102 dBs max at your listening position and that is not assuming compression. If you want 90-100 dBs then you are probably fine. This is assuming you like the sound already. I don't know how many people heard this speaker to know what it can do so we are guessing. I know for a fact 3 SHO-10's will sound great as well as eD cinema 12's. However, you really only need a speaker than can play 115 dBs max so there are many choices out there, if reference is a concern. I talk about spl's all the time because it matters for dynamic peaks. You can have the best speaker in the world but if it compresses and distorts at 105 dB's it does not matter, the SHO-10 at 105 dBs will be better.

115? Isn't reference levels 105dB to the speakers and 115dB to the subs? Or do some BR's get mixed differently? Also, just throwing this out there: not everyone listens at reference levels. In fact, I'd guess most do not. With that said, concerning a dedicated theater, if I could afford the headroom why wouldn't I choose it?
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post #17 of 61
5/30/12 at 9:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

115? Isn't reference levels 105dB to the speakers and 115dB to the subs? Or do some BR's get mixed differently? Also, just throwing this out there: not everyone listens at reference levels. In fact, I'd guess most do not.

I am talking at the speaker and assuming 6 dBs lost at the LP to be safe. He needs 111 dBs from a speaker at 1 meter but that is asking it to play at it's limits for peaks which never sounds good. Of course we don't know if reference is even a concern. His speakers already have a ribbon tweeter but I don't know how good it sounds. His advantage is 7 feet but his back row will suffer, we need to know his goals. Reference to the back seats is a whole new level but the SHO's would still do it. The SHO's do sound really good for the price and they can do it with a receiver. They are pretty big for a bookshelf but eD cinema 12 is much bigger. Was his budget of $3000 just for LCR's? Maybe some used Triad in room LCR's!
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post #18 of 61
5/30/12 at 9:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I am talking at the speaker and assuming 6 dBs lost at the LP to be safe. He needs 111 dBs from a speaker at 1 meter but that is asking it to play at it's limits for peaks which never sounds good. Of course we don't know if reference is even a concern. His speakers already have a ribbon tweeter but I don't know how good it sounds. His advantage is 7 feet but his back row will suffer, we need to know his goals. Reference to the back seats is a whole new level but the SHO's would still do it. The SHO's do sound really good for the price and they can do it with a receiver. They are pretty big for a bookshelf but eD cinema 12 is much bigger. Was his budget of $3000 just for LCR's? Maybe some used Triad in room LCR's!

I've heard good things about the Triad Golds.

Do your specs include room gain and more than 1 watt at 1meter? If not, room gain and having more than 1 watt power needs to be taken into consideration.
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post #19 of 61
5/30/12 at 10:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

I've heard good things about the Triad Golds.

Do your specs include room gain and more than 1 watt at 1meter? If not, room gain and having more than 1 watt power needs to be taken into consideration.

His speakers are 88 dBs and 120 watts. That is 108 dbs max at 1 meter with full power. 3-6 dBs lost from 7 feet and your at 102-105 dBs but that is probably not sounding great at it's limits.
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post #20 of 61
5/30/12 at 10:02am
Thread Starter 
Ok guys...sorry I was away. I'm going to get caught up in one reply

Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Why change? What is lacking from your HT experience? Can you link the speakers?

Great question. I was watching Thor the other night. I like listening loud! However...I don't want loud for the sake of loud if it is going to get "muddy". I'm not sure if I'll be able to explain it, but I felt like I was cranking it up to make sure I could hear everything in the movie but then at times it was almost annoying but turning it down caused me to have to "work" to hard to hear the dialogue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay1 View Post

No, you just mentioned adding a 5 channel amp. I'm suggesting that you might get more from your money instead by only worrying about getting your front 3 on a separate amp, and adding a receiver with a better auto EQ.

What about your speakers sound do you find lacking? How much room do you have for the center? Could you fit something like this under your screen?

http://www.pispeakers.com/catalog/pr...products_id/97

Got it. I was actually considering a 3 channel first but had not considered an upgrade for a receiver with better auto EQ. I'll have to measure the distance under the screen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

Here's the link:
http://www.htd.com/Products/level-three-speakers

I too would like to know what is lacking. For a dedicated HT setup I am surprised no one has recommended high efficiency designs such as Chase Home Theater, Elemental Designs, JTR, etc.

Please see answer above if it makes any sense

Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

How loud do you listen and what are your goals for this? Those speakers will play 102 dBs max at your listening position and that is not assuming compression. If you want 90-100 dBs then you are probably fine. This is assuming you like the sound already. I don't know how many people heard this speaker to know what it can do so we are guessing. I know for a fact 3 SHO-10's will sound great as well as eD cinema 12's. However, you really only need a speaker than can play 115 dBs max so there are many choices out there, if reference is a concern. I talk about spl's all the time because it matters for dynamic peaks. You can have the best speaker in the world but if it compresses and distorts at 105 dB's it does not matter, the SHO-10 at 105 dBs will be better.

Thanks...I'll take a look at the SHO-10!

Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I am talking at the speaker and assuming 6 dBs lost at the LP to be safe. He needs 111 dBs from a speaker at 1 meter but that is asking it to play at it's limits for peaks which never sounds good. Of course we don't know if reference is even a concern. His speakers already have a ribbon tweeter but I don't know how good it sounds. His advantage is 7 feet but his back row will suffer, we need to know his goals. Reference to the back seats is a whole new level but the SHO's would still do it. The SHO's do sound really good for the price and they can do it with a receiver. They are pretty big for a bookshelf but eD cinema 12 is much bigger. Was his budget of $3000 just for LCR's? Maybe some used Triad in room LCR's!

OK...I'm off on my quest for those latest options. Do you guys have a suggestion on where to find used gear? Is this site the best option?
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post #21 of 61
5/30/12 at 10:05am
Quote:
Originally Posted by rick1969 View Post

Do you guys have a suggestion on where to find used gear? Is this site the best option?

Try audiogon, craigslist, and eBay.
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post #22 of 61
5/30/12 at 10:05am
^ Audiogon, videogon and ebay.
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post #23 of 61
5/30/12 at 10:10am
Thread Starter 
Now that I'm looking at the options...my center channel will need to be a horizontal configuration. Not sure how the SHO-10 would work on that set up in the center location.
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post #24 of 61
5/30/12 at 10:11am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

I've heard good things about the Triad Golds.

Do your specs include room gain and more than 1 watt at 1meter? If not, room gain and having more than 1 watt power needs to be taken into consideration.

Nuance...I'm not sure about the question. You are talking to a guy who likes to research and buy but unfortunately isn't well versed at this technical stuff.
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post #25 of 61
5/30/12 at 10:11am
Quote:
Originally Posted by rick1969 View Post

Now that I'm looking at the options...my center channel will need to be a horizontal configuration. Not sure how the SHO-10 would work on that set up in the center location.

Would it impede TV viewing standing vertically?
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post #26 of 61
5/30/12 at 10:13am
This site and audiogon. The best thing about ID companies are their return policies. I would start out with the cheapest and go from there. Maybe they will impress you and if not return them. Don't be afraid to return them. I am sure the Triad in room gold LCR's are better BUT they will cost 3 times as much used. If the SHO-10's are good enough than be done. The Magnepan MMG's are the best value out there IMHO but they don't play much over 100 dBs. Awesome sound for $600 a pair. The eD cinema 12's will be very close to that sound and play much louder for a little more.
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post #27 of 61
5/30/12 at 10:19am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

Would it impede TV viewing standing vertically?

I guess I could make it work with a really short stand. I'm trying to hunt down a picture I took so you could see the current set up.
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post #28 of 61
5/30/12 at 5:35pm
Thread Starter 
Attachment 248055

This is my layout. I confirmed my measurements as well. Distance from center channel to main seating is 7'. Distance to secondary seating is 11'.
LL
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post #29 of 61
5/30/12 at 5:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rick1969 View Post


This is my layout. I confirmed my measurements as well. Distance from center channel to main seating is 7'. Distance to secondary seating is 11'.

Figure out how much dB's you lose with test tones from 3 feet, then at the front seats, and finally at the back seats.
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post #30 of 61
5/30/12 at 5:58pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post


Figure out how much dB's you lose with test tones from 3 feet, then at the front seats, and finally at the back seats.

Ummm....help me. How exactly do I do that. :/
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