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Calibration questions for JVC RS-1 with HCFR

post #1 of 24
5/29/12 at 9:29pm
Thread Starter 
I am new to calibration. I am using HCFR 3.0.4.0 with i1display pro/3 on DLA-RS1


HCFR requires us to adjust GREYSCALE with RGB LowEnd and RGB highEnd controls, what does it stands for in RS-1 projector menu?

My RS-1 throws from 14ft away, to a 92" Firehawk 1.1gain screen. I placed my i1display pro as near as 2-3 inches titled up 30degrees to get max. ftL. I am very disappointed that I can only get 4.5ftL at 100IRE, while ideal is 12-16ftL, is this normal? BTW, lamp hour 480.
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post #2 of 24
5/30/12 at 5:08am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nerd View Post

I am new to calibration. I am using HCFR 3.0.4.0 with i1display pro/3 on DLA-RS1


HCFR requires us to adjust GREYSCALE with RGB LowEnd and RGB highEnd controls, what does it stands for in RS-1 projector menu?

My RS-1 throws from 14ft away, to a 92" Firehawk 1.1gain screen. I placed my i1display pro as near as 2-3 inches titled up 30degrees to get max. ftL. I am very disappointed that I can only get 4.5ftL at 100IRE, while ideal is 12-16ftL, is this normal? BTW, lamp hour 480.

Hi,

The older JVCs like the RS-1 were very low light output projectors so I am not surprised at the number.
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post #3 of 24
5/30/12 at 5:26am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nerd View Post

I am new to calibration. I am using HCFR 3.0.4.0 with i1display pro/3 on DLA-RS1


HCFR requires us to adjust GREYSCALE with RGB LowEnd and RGB highEnd controls, what does it stands for in RS-1 projector menu?

My RS-1 throws from 14ft away, to a 92" Firehawk 1.1gain screen. I placed my i1display pro as near as 2-3 inches titled up 30degrees to get max. ftL. I am very disappointed that I can only get 4.5ftL at 100IRE, while ideal is 12-16ftL, is this normal? BTW, lamp hour 480.

The RS1 had minimal calibration controls, unfortunately. The only controls in the user menu were a single set of RGB sliders for adjusting greyscale. I can't remember if the service menu had RGB gains and offsets, you'll have to dig through the RS1 thread in the projector forum for that info.

The RS1 was rated at 700 calibrated lumens output at full (largest) zoom with the bulb on high, so you can expect anywhere between a 30% to 50% loss in output by the 500 hour mark. But part of the problem with your measurement is that 30° off axis is significant for the Firehawk (i.e. you'll get significant drop off in light output at 30°), so your reading is going to be skewed. Your best bet would be to use a light meter to measure brightness so you can do it as close to on-axis as possible.
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post #4 of 24
5/30/12 at 10:42am
My RS1 measures about 10ft-L at my 120 inch diagonal screen. Including gain of 1.7 off my draper m2500 I get about 17ft-L with new bulb. My throw is 23 feet so lumen only about 435 calibrated. Then some bulbs can drop quickly. Also that lumen is on low/eco lamp so I can get more on high lamp.

You can use the RGB offsets to adjust greyscale on an RS1 but its not perfect. You'll need a VP with a full CMS to get it right.
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post #5 of 24
5/30/12 at 1:36pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by HogPilot View Post

The RS1 had minimal calibration controls, unfortunately. The only controls in the user menu were a single set of RGB sliders for adjusting greyscale. I can't remember if the service menu had RGB gains and offsets, you'll have to dig through the RS1 thread in the projector forum for that info.

The RS1 was rated at 700 calibrated lumens output at full (largest) zoom with the bulb on high, so you can expect anywhere between a 30% to 50% loss in output by the 500 hour mark. But part of the problem with your measurement is that 30° off axis is significant for the Firehawk (i.e. you'll get significant drop off in light output at 30°), so your reading is going to be skewed. Your best bet would be to use a light meter to measure brightness so you can do it as close to on-axis as possible.

It has RGB in color temperature section, and RGB OFFSET， but they both seems to affect quite the same extent in both lowIRE and highIRE.

Thanks for the hint, I guess "30degree off axis" explained the low measurement of lumen on a firehawk. I feel better now.

BTW, How better the latest JVC do in terms of calibrated lumen? I am considering to replace the RS-1, the major purposes are for HIGHER LUMEN (more punch, since my screen only has 1.1gain), and most importantly, come with ACCURATE PRIMARIES/SECONDARIES in REC709, any suggested model?
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post #6 of 24
5/30/12 at 1:42pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronomy View Post

My RS1 measures about 10ft-L at my 120 inch diagonal screen. Including gain of 1.7 off my draper m2500 I get about 17ft-L with new bulb. My throw is 23 feet so lumen only about 435 calibrated. Then some bulbs can drop quickly. Also that lumen is on low/eco lamp so I can get more on high lamp.

You can use the RGB offsets to adjust greyscale on an RS1 but its not perfect. You'll need a VP with a full CMS to get it right.

I don't have VP and I would probably save the money for a new projector which is more capable for calibration.

My adjustment by HCFR has being done today, any comment on my following setting:

RGB USER 1 COLOR TEMP R0 G-28 B-112
RGB OFFSET R23 G0 B22

40IRE TO 100IRE can be within 10 delta E. 30IRE goes up to 18 delta E.

AVG GAMMA 1.8
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post #7 of 24
5/30/12 at 5:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nerd View Post

I don't have VP and I would probably save the money for a new projector which is more capable for calibration.

My adjustment by HCFR has being done today, any comment on my following setting:

RGB USER 1 COLOR TEMP R0 G-28 B-112
RGB OFFSET R23 G0 B22

40IRE TO 100IRE can be within 10 delta E. 30IRE goes up to 18 delta E.

AVG GAMMA 1.8

Should be able to do better than that. Stick with changing offsets before changing color temp. Offsets adjust lumen levels of RG or B and its the bulbs lumen output that is changing.

My RS1 is calibrated to DE's under 2 and under 1 at most stimulus levels. Gamut is set to 709 with DE's under 1 at all colors. Using a Duo VP of course but just using offsets I can get very good grey scale from 40 to 80 and then tweak color temp to level out the top end. Might have to go back and forth between the two settings to get the best in the 40 to 100 range.

So HCFR supports the new meter now? That's cool!
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post #8 of 24
5/30/12 at 10:05pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronomy View Post

Should be able to do better than that. Stick with changing offsets before changing color temp. Offsets adjust lumen levels of RG or B and its the bulbs lumen output that is changing.

My RS1 is calibrated to DE's under 2 and under 1 at most stimulus levels. Gamut is set to 709 with DE's under 1 at all colors. Using a Duo VP of course but just using offsets I can get very good grey scale from 40 to 80 and then tweak color temp to level out the top end. Might have to go back and forth between the two settings to get the best in the 40 to 100 range.

So HCFR supports the new meter now? That's cool!

Yes, i1display Pro with HCFR 3.0.4.0.

I was following the procedure provided from here http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10457

It tells us to adjust with 80IRE and 30 IRE back and forth until you get a best possible delta E with the whole greyscale. My problem is whenever I adjust the 80IRE perfectly in D65, the 30IRE drift severely to very reddish (over 30 delta E at 30IRE), then if I have 30IRE perfect out to D65, 80IRE becomes very blueish. I have to trade off the highIRE to more blueish in order to balance out the delta E across 40 to 80IRE, very frustrating.

Did you do it with 80IRE and 30IRE as well?
Or are you even using HCFR?
What have I missed compare to your method?

BTW, may I know your current settings? Just for reference, I know it may not be applicable in my system.
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post #9 of 24
5/30/12 at 10:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nerd View Post

It tells us to adjust with 80IRE and 30 IRE back and forth until you get a best possible delta E with the whole greyscale. My problem is whenever I adjust the 80IRE perfectly in D65, the 30IRE drift severely to very reddish (over 30 delta E at 30IRE), then if I have 30IRE perfect out to D65, 80IRE becomes very blueish. I have to trade off the highIRE to more blueish in order to balance out the delta E across 40 to 80IRE, very frustrating.

Unfortunately, this is how it has to be done on displays that have only high and low RGB controls and no external video processor. At least you have a blue error in the high IREs, which is better than a red or green error at low IRE. An alternative is to accept a slightly lower or higher-but flatter and more consistent across the grayscale-color temperature.
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post #10 of 24
5/30/12 at 11:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nerd View Post

It has RGB in color temperature section, and RGB OFFSET， but they both seems to affect quite the same extent in both lowIRE and highIRE.

IIRC, the RGB Offset controls are either useless or mimic what the RGB controls do in the color temp section. I do know that they don't do what their label would imply, so it's a waste of time to use them. As Rolls-Royce suggested above, the best you can do is to adjust the single RGB sliders so that your greyscale is as consistent as possible, accepting that your white point may not be right at D65.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nerd View Post

BTW, How better the latest JVC do in terms of calibrated lumen? I am considering to replace the RS-1, the major purposes are for HIGHER LUMEN (more punch, since my screen only has 1.1gain), and most importantly, come with ACCURATE PRIMARIES/SECONDARIES in REC709, any suggested model?

With the RS40/50/60 generation being an exception, the newer JVCs definitely put out more calibrated lumens than the RS1. The RS55 is capable of putting out in the vacinity of 1,000 calibrated lumens (at max zoom, iris full open, and high bulb setting), and it has an on-board CMS for fully adjusting your greyscale, gamma, and gamut. The difference in brightness and accuracy (as well as sharpness due to better optics, panel convergence, and panel/polarizer improvements) would be noticable in many different instances.
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post #11 of 24
5/31/12 at 2:52am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by HogPilot View Post

IIRC, the RGB Offset controls are either useless or mimic what the RGB controls do in the color temp section. I do know that they don't do what their label would imply, so it's a waste of time to use them. As Rolls-Royce suggested above, the best you can do is to adjust the single RGB sliders so that your greyscale is as consistent as possible, accepting that your white point may not be right at D65.



With the RS40/50/60 generation being an exception, the newer JVCs definitely put out more calibrated lumens than the RS1. The RS55 is capable of putting out in the vacinity of 1,000 calibrated lumens (at max zoom, iris full open, and high bulb setting), and it has an on-board CMS for fully adjusting your greyscale, gamma, and gamut. The difference in brightness and accuracy (as well as sharpness due to better optics, panel convergence, and panel/polarizer improvements) would be noticable in many different instances.

I am actually accepting the best that I can achieve, however I still would like to hear from Ronomy about how he did that excellent calibration result.

What is the calibrated lumens for RS-1 if RS55 is 1,000?

Regarding the gamut control on RS55, would it be able to adjust the PRIMARIES close to HDTV - REC 709? Will the latest model JVC X3 do even better on these calibration capabilities?
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post #12 of 24
5/31/12 at 5:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nerd View Post

I am actually accepting the best that I can achieve, however I still would like to hear from Ronomy about how he did that excellent calibration result.

He achieved it using an external processor:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronomy View Post

Using a Duo VP of course

If you're looking to stick with the limited controls on the RS1, this is what he offered up:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronomy View Post

but just using offsets I can get very good grey scale from 40 to 80 and then tweak color temp to level out the top end. Might have to go back and forth between the two settings to get the best in the 40 to 100 range.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nerd View Post

What is the calibrated lumens for RS-1 if RS55 is 1,000?

With a new bulb set to high, and at max zoom (biggest picture possible for a given throw) with as close to D65 as possible with the on-board controls, I seem to remember reviewers getting somewhere close to the 700 spec'd lumens. However this is with the RS-1's significantly oversaturated gamut - using an external processor to properly set the gamut will decrease your lumen output, but I don't have a number for you on that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nerd View Post

Regarding the gamut control on RS55, would it be able to adjust the PRIMARIES close to HDTV - REC 709?

Yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nerd View Post

Will the latest model JVC X3 do even better on these calibration capabilities?

The X3 (also sold as the RS40) is from last generation, and although it has good parametric greyscale/gamma controls, it has no controls for adjusting gamut. Neither does its replacement for this year, the X30/RS45. That feature is reserved for the RS55 and RS65.
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post #13 of 24
5/31/12 at 2:00pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by HogPilot View Post

He achieved it using an external processor:



If you're looking to stick with the limited controls on the RS1, this is what he offered up:





With a new bulb set to high, and at max zoom (biggest picture possible for a given throw) with as close to D65 as possible with the on-board controls, I seem to remember reviewers getting somewhere close to the 700 spec'd lumens. However this is with the RS-1's significantly oversaturated gamut - using an external processor to properly set the gamut will decrease your lumen output, but I don't have a number for you on that.



Yes.



The X3 (also sold as the RS40) is from last generation, and although it has good parametric greyscale/gamma controls, it has no controls for adjusting gamut. Neither does its replacement for this year, the X30/RS45. That feature is reserved for the RS55 and RS65.


Very Clear, thanks! Does Sony 95ES has a GOOD ability for calibrating the primaries to comply REC709?
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post #14 of 24
6/1/12 at 1:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nerd View Post

Very Clear, thanks! Does Sony 95ES has a GOOD ability for calibrating the primaries to comply REC709?

The only Sony I've owned was a Pearl (VW50), and only briefly, so I'm not 100%, but AFAIK the 95ES does also have a full CMS.
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post #15 of 24
6/1/12 at 11:58am
Thread Starter 
I am starting to consider purchase a VIDEO PROCESSOR, what would you recommend in order to be able to calibrate the primaries gamut to REC709, as well as of course a low delta E grey scale. With this device installed, do I calibrate by tweaking the controls in VP or I still have to tweak with my projector?

At minimal investment, will that be either Luminance Radiance Mini 3D (how much cost), or DVDO iScan Duo ($1299)?

Consider 2 HDMI input and 2 output is what I may needed. （1 input for BDP, 1 input for Anthem HDMI output) (1 output to PROJECTOR, 1 OUTPUT TO TV)

If it can be a HDMI splitter with simultaneous output would be a great feature to me.
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post #16 of 24
6/1/12 at 8:34pm
Using a VP to adjust the greyscale and gamma on an RS1 really didn't change my lumen numbers. A new bulb has lumen numbers up close to 800 lumens when the lens is wide open or wide zoom. My 435 number is the lens closed down and longest throw. Low lamp mode too. So thats a 20% loss using low lamp and another 35% using long throw. The iris is a lot smaller when using long throw which gives an RS1 very good contrast ratio when using long throw. Actually some reports said it could put out close to 900 lumen short throw and high lamp.
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post #17 of 24
6/1/12 at 8:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nerd View Post

I am starting to consider purchase a VIDEO PROCESSOR, what would you recommend in order to be able to calibrate the primaries gamut to REC709, as well as of course a low delta E grey scale. With this device installed, do I calibrate by tweaking the controls in VP or I still have to tweak with my projector?

At minimal investment, will that be either Luminance Radiance Mini 3D (how much cost), or DVDO iScan Duo ($1299)?

Consider 2 HDMI input and 2 output is what I may needed. （1 input for BDP, 1 input for Anthem HDMI output) (1 output to PROJECTOR, 1 OUTPUT TO TV)

If it can be a HDMI splitter with simultaneous output would be a great feature to me.

I use a Duo and get grey scale as close as possible using the offsets only in the projector. Then use the Duo to do the rest. There is a GUI for the Duo that makes it very easy to calibrate using the Duo manually.
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post #18 of 24
6/1/12 at 11:16pm
Can a video processor fix an under saturated display?
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post #19 of 24
6/2/12 at 12:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nerd View Post

I am starting to consider purchase a VIDEO PROCESSOR, what would you recommend in order to be able to calibrate the primaries gamut to REC709, as well as of course a low delta E grey scale. With this device installed, do I calibrate by tweaking the controls in VP or I still have to tweak with my projector?

At minimal investment, will that be either Luminance Radiance Mini 3D (how much cost), or DVDO iScan Duo ($1299)?

Consider 2 HDMI input and 2 output is what I may needed. （1 input for BDP, 1 input for Anthem HDMI output) (1 output to PROJECTOR, 1 OUTPUT TO TV)

If it can be a HDMI splitter with simultaneous output would be a great feature to me.

I would highly recommend a Radiance Mini, which is only a couple hundred more than the Duo. Lumagen's customer support is unparalleled in the HT VP market, as is their consistency for issuing firmware updates (many of which have added significant functionality that was not part of the original spec). The GUI on the Radiance line isn't quite as user friendly as the Duo's, but its functionality is significantly more expansive. AFAIK, the Duo can only pass 3D, it can process it at all; it also has a limited number of scaling presets. By contrast, the Radiance can fully process 3D (scaling, CMS, etc), and is capable of a completely variable, individual axis scaling. With the exception of the HDMI 1.3 upgrade, the Radiance hardware has kept up with every evolution in HT since it was released in 2007. Most of the processing in the Duo (except for the CMS) is hard-coded onto the VP chip and cannot be updated via firmware.

However the Radiance Mini only has a single HDMI output. You'd have to step up to the Radiance XS for two outputs.
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post #20 of 24
6/2/12 at 12:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by visca blaugrana View Post

Can a video processor fix an under saturated display?

Short answer: no.

A CMS can only shrink a display's native gamut. Increasing saturation beyond the native gamut of a projector would require changing out the physical color filters in the projector itself, which is tantamount to re-designing the light engine.
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post #21 of 24
6/2/12 at 11:55am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by HogPilot View Post

I would highly recommend a Radiance Mini, which is only a couple hundred more than the Duo. Lumagen's customer support is unparalleled in the HT VP market, as is their consistency for issuing firmware updates (many of which have added significant functionality that was not part of the original spec). The GUI on the Radiance line isn't quite as user friendly as the Duo's, but its functionality is significantly more expansive. AFAIK, the Duo can only pass 3D, it can process it at all; it also has a limited number of scaling presets. By contrast, the Radiance can fully process 3D (scaling, CMS, etc), and is capable of a completely variable, individual axis scaling. With the exception of the HDMI 1.3 upgrade, the Radiance hardware has kept up with every evolution in HT since it was released in 2007. Most of the processing in the Duo (except for the CMS) is hard-coded onto the VP chip and cannot be updated via firmware.

However the Radiance Mini only has a single HDMI output. You'd have to step up to the Radiance XS for two outputs.


Are they both be able to get me to REC709 color space?
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post #22 of 24
6/2/12 at 2:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nerd View Post

Are they both be able to get me to REC709 color space?

Yes they can! You would need a radiance xs to get analog video processing and switching over a mini. If you don't need 3D processing the Duo is cheaper and has multiple outputs and a ton of switching both digital and analog.
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post #23 of 24
6/3/12 at 12:01pm
Thread Starter 
What is the price for LUMAGEN radiance mini and XS?
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post #24 of 24
6/3/12 at 12:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nerd View Post

What is the price for LUMAGEN radiance mini and XS?

AVS sells both, you can contact any of their sales people and they'll quote you an actual price (which will be much lower than MSRP).
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