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Help me spend ~$1700 - Page 2

post #31 of 61
Yup, output. If that weren't the case I would go for the sealed every time. If you don't need delirious output, then maybe there is a way you can get two sealed 15"s for your budget, but I am talking about high excursion subs rather than Empires. That would give you a flatter frequency response, better room coverage, and razor sharp sound quality. But your budget isn't quite there for the a ULS-15 dual drive or a couple Rythmik F15s.
post #32 of 61
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

Hummm, based on this response you sound like you're not really the type to have a continuous case of upgraditus... Is that a fair assessment?

Not true at all. I can be pretty obsessive, especially once I start taking measurements. My upgraditus has been mostly in the realm of video, and has been greatly hampered by my desire to be fiscally responsible. I've been itching to upgrade my audio components for some time, but measuring and understanding the video shortcomings was easier for me, so it came first.

Now I'm fairly satisfied with my video chain (for the time being), and it's time to focus on audio. I have a lot to learn, however. My sub is the weakest link, so I'm starting there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

I was seriously considering the FV15HP until I was talked into going the LMS Ultra route. You could do single sealed ultra for very close to your budget. I'm a firm believer in the Ultra being the "solution" vs. just another upgrade route.

LMS Ultra = $925 shipped
INuke6000 amp = $499 shipped
ED Sub Box = $ 350-500 shipped

Something I would consider since you find sealed subs more appealing.

You missed the part about DIY not being an option . I know this is minimal DIY, and I appreciate the creative suggestions. It's not a route I plan to go at this time.
post #33 of 61
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

Well, as to 2 18" subs being overpowering, your original thought of two Empires yields 4 15" drivers, albeit in a much more attractive sealed box...overpowering depends on how you use the volume control

Like I said, it wasn't exactly logical.
post #34 of 61
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kini62 View Post

What about the Rythmik F15 and F15HP? Both sealed. Both have enough output for your room size. Both will dig to near 10hz with room gain.

The F15HP is near the top of my list. Within budget, I could only get 1, and I'm not convinced 1 will out perform two Empires. With a little work, I think I could get two Empires flat to ~20 Hz. I don't think I could do that with any single sub.
post #35 of 61
I guess so... Those that choose the HP version requires huge output for HT and ported ones is the one to go for. Actually in your room even the sealed ones would suffice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluescale View Post

I find sealed subs more appealing, but I'm not closed off to the idea of a ported sub. What I'm curious about is why people often recommend the FV15HP, but I don't see the F15HP listed as often in these threads. I also see the VTF-15H recommended quite a bit more than the ULS-15. Is it just because of sheer output?
post #36 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluescale View Post

With a little work, I think I could get two Empires flat to ~20 Hz. I don't think I could do that with any single sub.

Two Empires in your room should work very well. Take the plunge, and enjoy!
post #37 of 61
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

Yup, output. If that weren't the case I would go for the sealed every time. If you don't need delirious output, then maybe there is a way you can get two sealed 15"s for your budget, but I am talking about high excursion subs rather than Empires. That would give you a flatter frequency response, better room coverage, and razor sharp sound quality. But your budget isn't quite there for the a ULS-15 dual drive or a couple Rythmik F15s.

Any suggestions, or am I just not going to find that for under $1000 per subwoofer? If not, is your opinion that it's better to get two of something like the Empire, or stick with 1 higher end sub? Remember, I probably won't buy another sub any time soon.
post #38 of 61
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post

Two Empires in your room should work very well. Take the plunge, and enjoy!

Very nice setup you have, by the way. Is it safe to say you're very happy with your 18.1s? Do you have any FR charts of their performance in your room? Despite what I've said before, the Chase option is pretty intriguing to me. I feel I'll get the best in room performance from two of something. Unless someone can convince me that singles will work, or show me something I haven't yet considered, options in my price range are either Empires or 18.1s.
post #39 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluescale View Post

Very nice setup you have, by the way.

Thanks!

Quote:


Is it safe to say you're very happy with your 18.1s?

Yup, it's safe to say that. I've had them for a little over a year now. I'm very satisfied with how they perform, and I have no desire to upgrade from them.

Quote:


Do you have any FR charts of their performance in your room?

I've attached the graph (below) of my subs in my ~3,375 cu.ft. space. My buddy's subs - in his ~2,025 cu.ft. space - play flat down to ~10Hz.

That being said (I keep saying that!), your room's not that big, so duals of any of the following would both come in under budget and (IMO) provide plenty of output and headroom:
- Epik Empire
- SVS PB12-NSD
- Outlaw LFM-1 EX
- HSU VTF-3 MK4
- ChaseHT SS-18.1 w/ Dayton amp
LL
post #40 of 61
Deja vu all over again........
post #41 of 61
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by floridapoolboy View Post

Deja vu all over again........

How about just coming out and saying what's on your mind? You don't like the Chase and/or Epik subs? Something else? Make your point or move on.
post #42 of 61
My point is that I should have known better when I saw you owned a Rocket sub, I now realize what this thread is all about. Good luck with your purchase, I'm sure your new subs will be everything you expected.....
post #43 of 61
Having listened to most of these subs in pairs at various meets and get togethers - I vote Epik Empire (in budget) or HSU VTF-15H (slightly over budget) over the options discussed here.

I typically like a pair of subs in these subwoofer classes in order to get the grin inducing umpf and more even frequency response. I'd recommend a pair. I really don't think you could do much wrong with a pair of Epik Empires. They are a fun sub! Not the deepest digging, but very clean sounding. However, if you can spare the extra money buy a pair of HSU VTF-15H subs. That 16hz tune is a lot of fun with a pair in a small room.

I give these recommendations with the side note that I'd prefer a single Seaton Submersive, or a single JTR Captivator over any pair of these subs otherwise totaling around $2k


I'd take a friendly wager that one of my passive JTR Captivator pros would quite easily outplay a pair of any of the subs listed as recommendations in this thread that fall in or around the $1700 to $2k priceline. And you can setup a single passive JTR Cap with a amp, and EP4000 for right at $2K. Why? I owned a pair of SVS PB13 Ultras with the bash amps. I much preferred a single JTR Captivator over my pair of SVS PB13 Ultras, and I got to play with both for a couple weeks worth of listening sessions in my home before I sold the SVS PB13 Ultras. I ultimately always want to end up with two subs and recommend that for most typical rooms --- so if future additions are not an option at all, and price is firm - then buy the Epik Empires. Enjoy them, and don't attend any subwoofer meets with any of the more expensive well respected offerings! Ignorance in bliss!


BTW - - - have you read some of the sub meets like those linked in my sig and others in the subwoofer sticky?
post #44 of 61
There is some interesting stuff on this site too

http://www.harmanaudio.com/search_browse/outlet.asp
post #45 of 61
For $1700 I would give a friend, who is capable, $100 to put together a DIY sub for yourself. With that budget the EP-4000 would work(be warned fans) or attach a plate amp to each sub. DIY has huge performance for the money and sealed boxes are easier than most. Again I know you said DIY is out but what about a friend building it for you? I know the CHT stuff worked great in my room but I have not heard the empire and I think the empire advantages are smaller and built in amp. Do you have speaker wire or sub cable for the sub? The rhythmic looks very interesting and tested awesome by Ricci, better than the eD and empire. The CHT subs were not tested by Ricci yet for a fair comparison. I have seen in room responses from 5-7 hz(my room) up to 20 hz in others so it depends on your room. I don't think many sealed subs as a single or duals in your budget would do below 15 hz justice anyways. I am sorry I missed it but what is your room size again? I did not read the whole thread.
post #46 of 61
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

I give these recommendations with the side note that I'd prefer a single Seaton Submersive, or a single JTR Captivator over any pair of these subs otherwise totaling around $2k


I'd take a friendly wager that one of my passive JTR Captivator pros would quite easily outplay a pair of any of the subs listed as recommendations in this thread that fall in or around the $1700 to $2k priceline. And you can setup a single passive JTR Cap with a amp, and EP4000 for right at $2K.

I'm guessing on the shipping numbers, but it looks like I could probably do a JTR Cap 1000 for about $1700, and a Cap for about $2000 with an amp. Do you feel a solo Cap 1000 would outshine duals of any of the speakers we're taking about in this thread, even if another isn't on the horizon any time soon?

I've gone gone through every thread/link on the shootout sticky at the top of this subforum. As I said, I've been reading a lot over the last three months. Both the Submersive and the Captivator are obviously in another class. Until today, I never really considered the Cap, as I hadn't noticed the passive price on the JTR website.

I've always had one odd concern about the Captivator. There are a number of videos on online that show the sheer amount of air the Cap moves. I even saw the one you posted of your projector screen moving slightly. Do people ever find this distracting? Do you feel a gush of wind every time there's powerful LFE?
post #47 of 61
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I am sorry I missed it but what is your room size again? I did not read the whole thread.

2400^3, but with some pretty strange angles.
post #48 of 61
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

However, if you can spare the extra money buy a pair of HSU VTF-15H subs. That 16hz tune is a lot of fun with a pair in a small room.

Another question...Is there a reason your recomment the VTF-15H over the ULS-15? With shipping factored in, the price difference is just a bit more than $100 (the VTF-15H weighs more). And what about dual Rythmik F15's?

Funny how I'm now talking about the $2,000 range...
post #49 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluescale View Post

Funny how I'm now talking about the $2,000 range...

That can easily happen in this forum.

And the other thing I don't think you haven't mentioned is your sub EQ situation. Might be better to spend a little less on the subs and get an Antimode or Velodyne SMS, depending on what type of sub EQ capabilities your receiver has (if any).
post #50 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluescale View Post

Another question...Is there a reason your recomment the VTF-15H over the ULS-15? With shipping factored in, the price difference is just a bit more than $100 (the VTF-15H weighs more). And what about dual Rythmik F15's?

Funny how I'm now talking about the $2,000 range...

Next thing you know $4k is going to sound reasonable for a Submersive HP and the newest dual core Anti Mode and planning for your next Submersive, too...
post #51 of 61
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

That can easily happen in this forum.

And the other thing I don't think you haven't mentioned is your sub EQ situation. Might be better to spend a little less on the subs and get an Antimode or Velodyne SMS, depending on what type of sub EQ capabilities your receiver has (if any).

A processor upgrade and (if necessary) an outboard EQ have already been budgeted separately. July should see me receiving several toys.
post #52 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluescale View Post

I'm guessing on the shipping numbers, but it looks like I could probably do a JTR Cap 1000 for about $1700, and a Cap for about $2000 with an amp. Do you feel a solo Cap 1000 would outshine duals of any of the speakers we're taking about in this thread, even if another isn't on the horizon any time soon?

I've gone gone through every thread/link on the shootout sticky at the top of this subforum. As I said, I've been reading a lot over the last three months. Both the Submersive and the Captivator are obviously in another class. Until today, I never really considered the Cap, as I hadn't noticed the passive price on the JTR website.

I've always had one odd concern about the Captivator. There are a number of videos on online that show the sheer amount of air the Cap moves. I even saw the one you posted of your projector screen moving slightly. Do people ever find this distracting? Do you feel a gush of wind every time there's powerful LFE?

To the contrary - I LOVE tactile, I love the air movement, I love the dust flying. I'm very sensory orineted. In the skadoosh scene for example when the onscreen shows that wind wave coming from the explosion - you feel it on your face and legs. LOVE IT! If you turn the subs sideways all that effect is mostly mitigated, so take it or leave it at your own taste. Also if you make use of an HPF, some of that air movement is lessened. I have a friend who is a DJ by trade and has been around a lot of pro audio gear. I invited him over for a movie night and played some demo scenes. Immediately after the skadoosh scene he turned to me with a stupid confused grin and said is all that air movement from...your subs? He raved about them, and told his friends about them and wanted to invite his friends over, and continues to ask me about doing so.

As to the Cap 1000. I've not heard it. I don't like to guess on subs I've not heard, when I've tried in the past I've often been wrong. Reports are good from owners. Jeff says it's basically like a full blooded Captivator, but just a few dB down. Somehow I doubt my 2:1 observation would apply with the cap1000. I don't know - - for me personally I like having the extra ability on tap, even if is unused and it's worth the slight premium to know I have the sturdy more capable driver. I've never bottomed out my Cap drivers. I've run them on the EP4000 to the point I burnt out one of the amps (overzealous fan mod) with no HPF and never bottomed out the driver. I've completely shut off an Inuke DSP3000 amp on a couple dozen occassions because the amp went into full clip and ran out of steam and have never heard a bad noise from the Captivators. Funny thing is a full dead short on the Inuke DSP 3000 isn't enough power to bottom out the JTR Captivator drivers with no HPF. Jeff's driver design is a soft bottom and I can't even hit that! That's pretty comforting. It's also comforting that pretty much no matter what volume level I'm typically listening to the drivers are just loafing - barely moving. The exception to this I've seen was the 2011 sub meet I hosted where Jeff bottomed out the driver a couple times in the WOTW scene with massive shake your vision SPLs using every bit of that built in 2011 model's 4000 watt amp. Even though the driver found it's limits - it was at surreal levels. Levels I'd never experienced in anything before. It's a bit like being at the drag races next to the drag cars when they fire up! At several of the meets where the volume was more tame (IE Omaha's Subfest) you'll note comments from different attendees saying stuff like they could hardly tell the Captivator driver was even on because it was just barely moving to reproduce sound levels that other smaller drivers are moving hard to produce. That spare overhead results in clean, linear, dynamic sound reproduction!
Now I run my pair of caps on a Crown XLS-5000. I do use a HPF in the mic2200 because I read that Gorilla83 bottomed out his Captivator driver on this amp with no HPF in a spirited listening session. I've not done it, but then I quit most of my crazy crazy listening because I started getting a bit of tinnitus after my enthusiastic listening sessions. It has always gone away, but that scares me a bit. At the 2012 Subwoofer meet anytime we played at the high volumes near the end of the meet I had earplugs in. You want really loud? Those orbit shifters can put a hurt on!



Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluescale View Post

Another question...Is there a reason your recomment the VTF-15H over the ULS-15? With shipping factored in, the price difference is just a bit more than $100 (the VTF-15H weighs more). And what about dual Rythmik F15's?

Funny how I'm now talking about the $2,000 range...


Funny! Cause that's how it starts. In early 2011 I was only considering spending about $500 a sub x 2 subs.

Bought a couple Jamo D7s to replacing my dying parif of Infinity HPS-1000's (which are still great subs but I was tired of re-occurring amp problems and expensive long repairs) - heard a HSU VTF-15H was very impressed!!! - figured I needed to hear what else was out there --- bought a Yamaha CW218V to hear what pro-audio sub setup sounded like , hosted the 2011 subwoofer meet - heard the stellar JTR Captivator and Seaton Submersive - also heard Epik Empire, HSU VTF-15H, and SVS PB12+. Bought a pair of SVS PB13 Ultras for cheap from a KC friend, figured that would stop the whole cycle cause I'd have a couple of the typical "best of class" recommendations on AVSforum, and if they weren't the best - they'd be right up there with the best...... BUT I couldn't shake the feeling that a single JTR Captivator from the 2011 meet was significantly better than my pair of SVS PB13 Ultras (and I think the other three guys that demoed them with me would agree - carp, luke kamp, and counsil) --- within weeks I started trying to figure out how I could get a single JTR Captivator and preferably doubles. In my room a co-located pair of the SVS PB13 Ultra's corner loaded hit 115dB clean from the listening position. My pair of JTR captivators hit 125dB clean from the same listening position - NOT corner loaded and not co-located off a single EP4000 amp. These numbers from a RatShack SPL meter. Those dB levels for any length of time will make your ears ring hollow for a month --- Ask me how I know? I only owned the SVS PB13 ultras for a bit over a month before I resold. Luckily SVS is a great sub and so they have a loyal following and stellar resale value meaning I didn't take a hit on that sale. Purchased the JTR Captivators - have attended one more and hosted one more sub meet since and still to my ears have not heard better than the JTR Captivator. When and if I hear something significantly better than the Captivators I'll probably be jumping on the upgrade wagon again --- but unless it's DIY or Jeff or Mark's yet unreleased creation -- I've not found it yet.



All this said --- mine is just one man's opinion (as Michael Savage always likes to say). Any of the subs discussed in this thread are good, and you'd likely be happy with even the cheapest of the discussed! (until you hear better) :P

Also, for what it's worth, I loved the SVS for movies, but didn't like them for music. In multiple subwoofer meets and in talking to multiple former SVS owners at these meets - for some reason I keep hearing that same experience and the experience seems somewhat common. It seems those who have upgraded from SVS enjoyed them much for movies, but they seem to lack a bit for music in some respects. I don't know how to explain the common factor - but I've heard it repeated enough since and experienced it myself (before I even heard it for the first time from others) too often for it to be random. So that's why I previously suggested the HSU and Epik in this thread and didn't mention the SVS. That said -- if your heavily weighted primary purpose is towards movies. SVS are darn good - perhaps better than HSU and Epik! They are able to create that pant flapping grin inducing LFE effect quite well in the appropriate sized room. I definately recall from the 2011 meet that of the ~1000 dollar subwoofers in my room - the SVS was the only one of the three mid priced subs that made my pant leg feel like it was flapping during the movie scenes, and I found that theme continued with the SVS PB13 Ultras. They had a great deal of fun LFE effect in the 15hz tune, but the JTR Captivators have that...and they have the music aspect down pat too! I don't want to take over this thread. This isn't a one horse race. Keep reading and good luck with your choice!

Also check out the I'll demo my subwoofer for other enthusiasts thread and if there are any of these toys in your neck of the woods put your ears on them! Or consider hosting a local subwoofer meet and purchase the subjective winner to your ears.

Your room is small enough at 2500 cubic feet that even the $800 to $1000 class subs are going to be a lot of fun!
post #53 of 61
Where in oregon do you live? Are you opposed to buying a complete used diy setup? Amp, enclosure, driver included?
post #54 of 61
If your interested, pm me. I'm in oregon and have quite the setup for sale just under your budget.
post #55 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluescale View Post

Any suggestions, or am I just not going to find that for under $1000 per subwoofer? If not, is your opinion that it's better to get two of something like the Empire, or stick with 1 higher end sub? Remember, I probably won't buy another sub any time soon.

I don't know of any pair of high power 15"s that are in your budget. All the high excursion 15"s are going to be over $1k shipped. Dual Empires will no doubt sound great, they have massive mid and upper bass output and not bad deep bass as well. Something similar cost wise would be the Hsu VTF3, that would have higher output at its tuning point which is adjustable (16 or 25 hz) and a flatter frequency response. I think the Empires would have quite a bit more output starting in the 30's hz range, and waaay more output at 60 hz and above.
post #56 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluescale View Post

That is the plan. I'll get the mic with the sub(s) and any room correction/eq solution I purchase. It will all come at the same time.

Any chance we can talk you into a MiniDSP, i use a balanced version 2x4 with 4way advanced plugins. For a paltry $175.00 you get one pretty tricked out EQ. I just scratched the surface with mine and its performence is fantastic
post #57 of 61
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by keager View Post

If your interested, pm me. I'm in oregon and have quite the setup for sale just under your budget.

PM Sent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kgveteran View Post

Any chance we can talk you into a MiniDSP, i use a balanced version 2x4 with 4way advanced plugins. For a paltry $175.00 you get one pretty tricked out EQ. I just scratched the surface with mine and its performence is fantastic

It's certainly possible. I haven't done too much research into what solution I'm going to buy. I know MiniDSP can apply filters based on REW measurements, which is a plus, as I plan to plunge headlong into REW soon.
post #58 of 61
Thread Starter 
So...I might be able to pick up a gently used LMS Ultra 5400 18 with matching VMP 18 passive radiators in 6.4 cu ft enclosure + Crown xls5000 amp for right around my asking price. So, two basic questions:

1. How would this monster compare to something like a Captivator? Based on my limited knowledge and reading, it looks damn impressive.

2. How would 1 monster sub (either the LMS or the Captivator) fare in a challenging room? Would it make more sense to get two lesser subs to even out the frequency response, or can placement and EQ tame pretty much any challenge (within reason)?
post #59 of 61
I have a dog in the fight, so my opinion would be biased. I just dont want this thread to get buried, so the OP can get some unbiased opinions.
post #60 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluescale View Post

So...I might be able to pick up a gently used LMS Ultra 5400 18 with matching VMP 18 passive radiators in 6.4 cu ft enclosure + Crown xls5000 amp for right around my asking price. So, two basic questions:

1. How would this monster compare to something like a Captivator? Based on my limited knowledge and reading, it looks damn impressive.

2. How would 1 monster sub (either the LMS or the Captivator) fare in a challenging room? Would it make more sense to get two lesser subs to even out the frequency response, or can placement and EQ tame pretty much any challenge (within reason)?

I'm looking at your original post. I think you were on the right track. It's easy to be blinded by all of the shiny subs out there. Your listening preferences stated you rarely listened to things much above 85db. I wouldn't spend too much on any sub which whose potential you would rarely use.

I would still go with duals and stick to your budget of $1700. I believe there are plenty of choices in that range...many already mentioned... which would make you happy based on your initial list of needs.
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