Originally Posted by Bluescale
I'm guessing on the shipping numbers, but it looks like I could probably do a JTR Cap 1000 for about $1700, and a Cap for about $2000 with an amp. Do you feel a solo Cap 1000 would outshine duals of any of the speakers we're taking about in this thread, even if another isn't on the horizon any time soon?
I've gone gone through every thread/link on the shootout sticky at the top of this subforum. As I said, I've been reading a lot over the last three months. Both the Submersive and the Captivator are obviously in another class. Until today, I never really considered the Cap, as I hadn't noticed the passive price on the JTR website.
I've always had one odd concern about the Captivator. There are a number of videos on online that show the sheer amount of air the Cap moves. I even saw the one you posted of your projector screen moving slightly. Do people ever find this distracting? Do you feel a gush of wind every time there's powerful LFE?
To the contrary - I LOVE tactile, I love the air movement, I love the dust flying. I'm very sensory orineted. In the skadoosh scene for example when the onscreen shows that wind wave coming from the explosion - you feel it on your face and legs. LOVE IT! If you turn the subs sideways all that effect is mostly mitigated, so take it or leave it at your own taste. Also if you make use of an HPF, some of that air movement is lessened. I have a friend who is a DJ by trade and has been around a lot of pro audio gear. I invited him over for a movie night and played some demo scenes. Immediately after the skadoosh scene he turned to me with a stupid confused grin and said is all that air movement from...your subs? He raved about them, and told his friends about them and wanted to invite his friends over, and continues to ask me about doing so.
As to the Cap 1000. I've not heard it. I don't like to guess on subs I've not heard, when I've tried in the past I've often been wrong. Reports are good from owners. Jeff says it's basically like a full blooded Captivator, but just a few dB down. Somehow I doubt my 2:1 observation would apply with the cap1000. I don't know - - for me personally I like having the extra ability on tap, even if is unused and it's worth the slight premium to know I have the sturdy more capable driver. I've never bottomed out my Cap drivers. I've run them on the EP4000 to the point I burnt out one of the amps (overzealous fan mod) with no HPF and never bottomed out the driver. I've completely shut off an Inuke DSP3000 amp on a couple dozen occassions because the amp went into full clip and ran out of steam and have never heard a bad noise from the Captivators. Funny thing is a full dead short on the Inuke DSP 3000 isn't enough power to bottom out the JTR Captivator drivers with no HPF. Jeff's driver design is a soft bottom and I can't even hit that! That's pretty comforting. It's also comforting that pretty much no matter what volume level I'm typically listening to the drivers are just loafing - barely moving. The exception to this I've seen was the 2011 sub meet I hosted where Jeff bottomed out the driver a couple times in the WOTW scene with massive shake your vision SPLs using every bit of that built in 2011 model's 4000 watt amp. Even though the driver found it's limits - it was at surreal levels. Levels I'd never experienced in anything before. It's a bit like being at the drag races next to the drag cars when they fire up! At several of the meets where the volume was more tame (IE Omaha's Subfest) you'll note comments from different attendees saying stuff like they could hardly tell the Captivator driver was even on because it was just barely moving to reproduce sound levels that other smaller drivers are moving hard to produce. That spare overhead results in clean, linear, dynamic sound reproduction!
Now I run my pair of caps on a Crown XLS-5000. I do use a HPF in the mic2200 because I read that Gorilla83 bottomed out his Captivator driver on this amp with no HPF in a spirited listening session. I've not done it, but then I quit most of my crazy crazy listening because I started getting a bit of tinnitus after my enthusiastic listening sessions. It has always gone away, but that scares me a bit. At the 2012 Subwoofer meet anytime we played at the high volumes near the end of the meet I had earplugs in. You want really loud? Those orbit shifters can put a hurt on!
Originally Posted by Bluescale
Another question...Is there a reason your recomment the VTF-15H over the ULS-15? With shipping factored in, the price difference is just a bit more than $100 (the VTF-15H weighs more). And what about dual Rythmik F15's?
Funny how I'm now talking about the $2,000 range...
Funny! Cause that's how it starts. In early 2011 I was only considering spending about $500 a sub x 2 subs.
Bought a couple Jamo D7s to replacing my dying parif of Infinity HPS-1000's (which are still great subs but I was tired of re-occurring amp problems and expensive long repairs) - heard a HSU VTF-15H was very impressed!!! - figured I needed to hear what else was out there --- bought a Yamaha CW218V to hear what pro-audio sub setup sounded like , hosted the 2011 subwoofer meet - heard the stellar JTR Captivator and Seaton Submersive - also heard Epik Empire, HSU VTF-15H, and SVS PB12+. Bought a pair of SVS PB13 Ultras for cheap from a KC friend, figured that would stop the whole cycle cause I'd have a couple of the typical "best of class" recommendations on AVSforum, and if they weren't the best - they'd be right up there with the best...... BUT I couldn't shake the feeling that a single JTR Captivator from the 2011 meet was significantly better than my pair of SVS PB13 Ultras (and I think the other three guys that demoed them with me would agree - carp, luke kamp, and counsil) --- within weeks I started trying to figure out how I could get a single JTR Captivator and preferably doubles. In my room a co-located pair of the SVS PB13 Ultra's corner loaded hit 115dB clean from the listening position. My pair of JTR captivators hit 125dB clean from the same listening position - NOT corner loaded and not co-located off a single EP4000 amp. These numbers from a RatShack SPL meter. Those dB levels for any length of time will make your ears ring hollow for a month --- Ask me how I know?
I only owned the SVS PB13 ultras for a bit over a month before I resold. Luckily SVS is a great sub and so they have a loyal following and stellar resale value meaning I didn't take a hit on that sale. Purchased the JTR Captivators - have attended one more and hosted one more sub meet since and still to my ears have not heard better than the JTR Captivator. When and if I hear something significantly better than the Captivators I'll probably be jumping on the upgrade wagon again --- but unless it's DIY or Jeff or Mark's yet unreleased creation -- I've not found it yet.
All this said --- mine is just one man's opinion (as Michael Savage always likes to say). Any of the subs discussed in this thread are good, and you'd likely be happy with even the cheapest of the discussed! (until you hear better) :P
Also, for what it's worth, I loved the SVS for movies, but didn't like them for music. In multiple subwoofer meets and in talking to multiple former SVS owners at these meets - for some reason I keep hearing that same experience and the experience seems somewhat common. It seems those who have upgraded from SVS enjoyed them much for movies, but they seem to lack a bit for music in some respects. I don't know how to explain the common factor - but I've heard it repeated enough since and experienced it myself (before I even heard it for the first time from others) too often for it to be random. So that's why I previously suggested the HSU and Epik in this thread and didn't mention the SVS. That said -- if your heavily weighted primary purpose is towards movies. SVS are darn good - perhaps better than HSU and Epik! They are able to create that pant flapping grin inducing LFE effect quite well in the appropriate sized room. I definately recall from the 2011 meet that of the ~1000 dollar subwoofers in my room - the SVS was the only one of the three mid priced subs that made my pant leg feel like it was flapping during the movie scenes, and I found that theme continued with the SVS PB13 Ultras. They had a great deal of fun LFE effect in the 15hz tune, but the JTR Captivators have that...and they have the music aspect down pat too! I don't want to take over this thread. This isn't a one horse race. Keep reading and good luck with your choice!
Also check out the I'll demo my subwoofer for other enthusiasts thread and if there are any of these toys in your neck of the woods put your ears on them! Or consider hosting a local subwoofer meet and purchase the subjective winner to your ears.
Your room is small enough at 2500 cubic feet that even the $800 to $1000 class subs are going to be a lot of fun!