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Denon 2312CI not impressed...

post #1 of 154
5/30/12 at 10:28am
Thread Starter 
Hello all and thanks for giving me a look... so i bought a Denon 2312 a few weeks ago and after playing with many Audyssey settings and calibrating everything im not totally "sold" on the sound im getting. Everything sounds kind of "bright" to me and not necessarily warm. I did get to a point where if i setup the Audyssey setting for Stereo to "bypass L/R" it sounds decent but not how i think it should sound. Now, the person i bought my speakers from swears he would've steered me to something else had i come to him for the receiver as well. He's suggesting an Integra 30.4. Now, i dont know much about this stuff but kind of learning as i go. Is there any reason to believe the Integra will sound better or more to my liking? Or any others to consider that might give me a warmer sound? btw, i have the following speakers:

Focal front Chorus 712
Focal center chorus 700
Paradigm Sub PDR 100
Def tech 5.5 rears

I'd love to hear your opinions out there. And don't mean to offend any Denon owners at all (i may still keep it .

Thanks all.
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post #2 of 154
5/30/12 at 10:34am
The sound you are getting is a function of the speakers and the room. The guy is full of s*@# and just wants to make more money off of you. By the way, even if you believe all the false claims about some receivers being bright, Onkyo/Integra are generally considered brighter than Denon. Now, again, that's not really true - they're the same. But either way, I do not recommend a receiver swap.

Focal is generally known to make bright speakers, by the way.

Here are your options as I see them:
-Get used to it (probably easier than you think, unless it's REALLY bad... and if it's REALLY bad, then it's probably mostly the room; room-eq can't correct everything, either)
-Try adjusting the positioning/angle-in of the speakers a bit. You generally want them 1/7 or 1/5 the length of the wall away from the corner, or so I have read.
-Try some room treatments
-Get different speakers

If the Audyssey target curve can be adjusted in that receiver then you could try playing with that. Rolling off the top end can 'warm up' the sound. Brightness can often simply mean a very detailed speaker, or it can imply some sort of sibilance or other issue as well. And it's often caused by the room, or at least worsened by the room. I do not know what receivers can and can't adjust the target curve, but I have seen people talk about it in the past.

Edit: Also, as jdsmoothie mentioned below and I previously forgot, do make sure you did the Audyssey setup correctly as well. And you can play with the positioning/angle of the microphone to a degree to try and tweak things. Also, good catch about the 2EQ. 2EQ sucks.
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post #3 of 154
5/30/12 at 10:38am
The 30.4 actually uses the lowest level of Audyssey 2EQ which can't even EQ the sub! Did you use a camera tripod or music mic boom as is suggested in your Owner's manual? If not, you can purchase either on Amazon for generally < $30. Review the AUTO SETUP tips suggested in post #3 of the Denon AVR-XX12 Owner's thread linked in my sig as well as review the Audyssey 101 guide linked in my sig. Also it's best to take all 8 mic positions to provide more data for the Audyssey filters.
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post #4 of 154
5/30/12 at 11:59am
Thread Starter 
Gents, thanks for your input. I did NOT use a tripod (didnt have one) so i handheld it in a few different seated positions in the listening area. If you think its extremely important to use a tripod, i'll get one and do it again. I do agree that the guy that sold me speakers does "just want to sell me something". Its my untrusting nature i guess. He did agree to have his tech come to my house and help me fine-tune the receiver and if need be swap an Integra in to see if i like it any better. Any other suggestions besides: get used to it, swap the speakers or retune using a tripod? Can i get a warmer sound with a different receiver?

Thanks again.
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post #5 of 154
5/30/12 at 12:23pm
You should run it again, but with a mic boom stand and not a tripod. Hand holding the mic is problematic, as regardless of how hard you try, the mic is moving and the results are likely to be poor.

The boom stand will allow you to get the mic away from your seat's headrest - the results may surprise you (in a good way).
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post #6 of 154
5/30/12 at 12:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaksbro View Post

Gents, thanks for your input. I did NOT use a tripod (didnt have one) so i handheld it in a few different seated positions in the listening area. If you think its extremely important to use a tripod, i'll get one and do it again. I do agree that the guy that sold me speakers does "just want to sell me something". Its my untrusting nature i guess. He did agree to have his tech come to my house and help me fine-tune the receiver and if need be swap an Integra in to see if i like it any better. Any other suggestions besides: get used to it, swap the speakers or retune using a tripod? Can i get a warmer sound with a different receiver?

Thanks again.

I would read the first page of the audyssey thread and follow it exactly. Using a tripod will help the sound a lot. Also you need to use all 8 positions and they should not just be in random seating positions. You should start right in the middle and then try 2 feet out to the sides and to the front. The audyssey thread has a picture with recommended mic positions you can try. Make sure the mic is at least 2 to 3 feet from a wall or it will make your speakers sound brighter. Also make sure you are not standing between the speakers and the mic because again it will make the speakers sound brighter. Until you get the tripod turn audyssey off because you probably did more damage running it incorrectly and your system will probably sound better with it off.
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post #7 of 154
5/30/12 at 12:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonoMan View Post

The sound you are getting is a function of the speakers and the room. The guy is full of s*@# and just wants to make more money off of you. By the way, even if you believe all the false claims about some receivers being bright, Onkyo/Integra are generally considered brighter than Denon. Now, again, that's not really true - they're the same. But either way, I do not recommend a receiver swap.

Focal is generally known to make bright speakers, by the way.

Here are your options as I see them:
-Get used to it (probably easier than you think, unless it's REALLY bad... and if it's REALLY bad, then it's probably mostly the room; room-eq can't correct everything, either)
-Try adjusting the positioning/angle-in of the speakers a bit. You generally want them 1/7 or 1/5 the length of the wall away from the corner, or so I have read.
-Try some room treatments
-Get different speakers

If the Audyssey target curve can be adjusted in that receiver then you could try playing with that. Rolling off the top end can 'warm up' the sound. Brightness can often simply mean a very detailed speaker, or it can imply some sort of sibilance or other issue as well. And it's often caused by the room, or at least worsened by the room. I do not know what receivers can and can't adjust the target curve, but I have seen people talk about it in the past.

Edit: Also, as jdsmoothie mentioned below and I previously forgot, do make sure you did the Audyssey setup correctly as well. And you can play with the positioning/angle of the microphone to a degree to try and tweak things. Also, good catch about the 2EQ. 2EQ sucks.

The dealer just may be smarter than you think. If the buyer said audyssy sounds like crap. Than 2EQ just may sound the best cause it has less of the audyssy affect! If you like the way your speakers sound than audyessy just may not be for you.. I know, been there done that... 2EQ just may be the best audyssy ever !!
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post #8 of 154
5/30/12 at 12:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by joehonest View Post

The dealer just may be smarter than you think. If the buyer said audyssy sounds like crap. Than 2EQ just may sound the best cause it has less of the audyssy affect! If you like the way your speakers sound than audyessy just may not be for you.. I know, been there done that... 2EQ just may be the best audyssy ever !!

You don't have to use Audyssey at all if you don't want to. But the issue here is that the guy either demo'd the speakers in a different room than his that sounded different/fine, for too short a time, or he didn't demo them at all. Focal is not a brand that I would recommend for people who like 'warm' sound. There are some things that he can try such as listed above, but he may have bought speakers that are just not right for him. He'll have to try some stuff and see. Auto-EQ of any kind is far from perfect. Many rooms have resonances that cannot be fixed electronically.
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post #9 of 154
5/30/12 at 12:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by joehonest View Post

The dealer just may be smarter than you think. If the buyer said audyssy sounds like crap. Than 2EQ just may sound the best cause it has less of the audyssy affect! If you like the way your speakers sound than audyessy just may not be for you.. I know, been there done that... 2EQ just may be the best audyssy ever !!

Way to ignore the part where he hand held the Audyssey mic. 2EQ is hardly the best Audyssey version, but given that you can't competently execute the Audyssey process, you shouldn't be giving advice to anyone on this topic.
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post #10 of 154
5/30/12 at 12:57pm
I have over 6 years of experience with dealing with the bugs of audyessy in denon and onkyo avrs. Some people just don't want to put-up with all the user effort that may be needed to get audyssey to be affective in their HT. Audyssey can make your $$ system sound cheap at times due to many factors, mostly the user..
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post #11 of 154
5/30/12 at 1:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by joehonest View Post

I have over 6 years of experience with dealing with the bugs of audyessy in denon and onkyo avrs. Some people just don't want to put-up with all the user effort that may be needed to get audyssey to be affective in their HT. Audyssey can make your $$ system sound cheap at times due to many factors, mostly the user..

And every time you post, like most who aren't happy with Audyssey, it's clear you don't follow any of the instructions or guides to properly use the tool. It's a simple and reliable process that works for the vast majority of users. Any personal problems you may have as an individual in operating it correctly are not relevant to others who know which end of the hammer to drive a nail with.
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post #12 of 154
5/30/12 at 1:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by joehonest View Post

I have over 6 years of experience with dealing with the bugs of audyessy in denon and onkyo avrs. Some people just don't want to put-up with all the user effort that may be needed to get audyssey to be affective in their HT. Audyssey can make your $$ system sound cheap at times due to many factors, mostly the user..

So you hate Audyssey and run around here bashing it all the time but you admit that most of the time its user error causing the issues? So you blame audyssey for the fact that people mess up their systems by not following the instructions?

Edit: Bfreedma beat me to it.
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post #13 of 154
5/30/12 at 1:08pm
The amps in the denon 2312 are no help. The denon amps are not high current output, were as the onkyo are. In many cases this could be the one big factor for the way your system sounds close to or at reference levels..
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post #14 of 154
5/30/12 at 1:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by joehonest View Post

The amps in the denon 2312 are no help. The denon amps are not high current output, were as the onkyo are. In many cases this could be the one big factor for the way your system sounds close to or at reference levels..

Not really. In fact, not at all.

Keep trying Joe.
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post #15 of 154
5/30/12 at 1:15pm
I say the amps in any AVR are a big factor in the total effect...
You can believe what you want.
And I put my money where my mouth is.
But you have to have the bucks...
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post #16 of 154
5/30/12 at 1:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by joehonest View Post

The amps in the denon 2312 are no help. The denon amps are not high current output, were as the onkyo are. In many cases this could be the one big factor for the way your system sounds close to or at reference levels..

Uhh... not this crap again.

The current is going to be the exact same between any receiver at equal power levels with the same speakers, as long as the receiver is can handle the impedance of the speaker.

V=IZ (V=Voltage, I=Current, Z=Impedance)
I=V/Z

The amps are a voltage source and the speakers are a more-or-less fixed impedance (well, it varies over frequency, but not so much over time aside from the effects of voice coil temperature), so current is constrained by those two things, as long as the receiver is capable of providing it. If not, voltage will drop and distortion will happen (and current is still constrained in that situation - just not to something that you'd want it to be).
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post #17 of 154
5/30/12 at 1:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonoMan View Post

Uhh... not this crap again.

The current is going to be the exact same between any receiver at equal power levels with the same speakers, as long as the receiver is can handle the impedance of the speaker.

V=IZ (V=Voltage, I=Current, Z=Impedance)
I=V/Z

The amps are a voltage source and the speakers are a more-or-less fixed impedance (well, it varies over frequency, but not so much over time aside from the effects of voice coil temperature), so current is constrained by those two things, as long as the receiver is capable of providing it. If not, voltage will drop and distortion will happen (and current is still constrained in that situation - just not to something that you'd want it to be).

I agree with what you pointed out. But you still think amps are not a big factor ?
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post #18 of 154
5/30/12 at 1:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by joehonest View Post

I say the amps in any AVR are a big factor in the total effect...
You can believe what you want.
And I put my money where my mouth is.
But you have to have the bucks...

Care to show us measurements to support that claim?

Trust me, if amps made a difference, I'd be investing in a $10K amp.
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post #19 of 154
5/30/12 at 1:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by joehonest View Post

I agree with what you pointed out. But you still think amps are not a big factor ?

Gotta love it - your entire statement was just debunked, but you still plow forward.

No - amps are not a big factor.
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post #20 of 154
5/30/12 at 1:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

Care to show us measurements to support that claim?

Trust me, if amps made a difference, I'd be investing in a $10K amp.

Its not my job to sell you. There is a line between cheap crap and the good stuff. The 10k amp is overkill, but still nice, if your a show-off.

The cheap crap AVR and the good avrs may be only a few hunderd dollars apart..
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post #21 of 154
5/30/12 at 1:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by joehonest View Post

I agree with what you pointed out. But you still think amps are not a big factor ?

If the distortion and SNR are low and the power you are looking for is capable of being delivered, then it's a question of reliability... and aesthetics. I believe that as long as the distortion is low and power ample, the amp is otherwise the least important part of the entire system. By far.
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post #22 of 154
5/30/12 at 1:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by joehonest View Post

Its not my job to sell you. There is a line between cheap crap and the good stuff. The 10k amp is overkill, but still nice, if your a show-off.

So again Joe, where are the measurements and/or objective data to support your claims. Where is the line between cheap and good? Is it based on specific technology and/or arbitrary cost? Whatever JoeHonest ate for breakfast that day? Something else?

It's pretty obvious you don't know what your discussing here, but don't let that slow you down.
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post #23 of 154
5/30/12 at 1:40pm
Thread Starter 
I think this is one of the things that bothers me about the Denon... constantly fiddling with what sounds good. I do think you all have great points to consider but im still wondering if its my speakers or my Denon
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post #24 of 154
5/30/12 at 1:42pm
Just let your ears tell you whats good, isn't that what it's all about..

Dogs will eat dog food...
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post #25 of 154
5/30/12 at 1:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaksbro View Post

I think this is one of the things that bothers me about the Denon... constantly fiddling with what sounds good. I do think you all have great points to consider but im still wondering if its my speakers or my Denon

It's your speakers and your room. Period. The MultEQ in your receiver is meant to be a band-aid for some of that, but it is far from perfect. You can fiddle with it and try to get it working a bit better, or you can go right to fixing/changing your speakers or room.

Even just the placement of your speakers is more important than which receiver, even when you include the (real) differences between room correction brands.

If you do change the receiver, I really do not recommend the Integra you mentioned. 2EQ is a serious step down.
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post #26 of 154
5/30/12 at 1:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonoMan View Post

If you do change the receiver, I really do not recommend the Integra you mentioned. 2EQ is a serious step down.

It could be the best thing ever.. 2EQ
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post #27 of 154
5/30/12 at 1:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by joehonest View Post

It could be the best thing ever.. 2EQ

Some people think the horse was the best mode of transportation ever. Most of us have moved on.

Seriously, what's your agenda here beyond exposing your lack of knowledge?
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post #28 of 154
5/30/12 at 1:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonoMan View Post

It's your speakers and your room. Period. The MultEQ in your receiver is meant to be a band-aid for some of that, but it is far from perfect. You can fiddle with it and try to get it working a bit better, or you can go right to fixing/changing your speakers or room.

Even just the placement of your speakers is more important than which receiver, even when you include the (real) differences between room correction brands.

If you do change the receiver, I really do not recommend the Integra you mentioned. 2EQ is a serious step down.

OP - Follow DonoMan's advice.

JH has some, um, interesting views that are way out of best practice. If your room and speaker placements are poor, no amp will change that regardless of brand or price. Room EQ will help, but has it's limits - the better the EQ, the more likely it will address some of the issues.
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post #29 of 154
5/30/12 at 2:00pm
Thread Starter 
Ok gents, lets assume it is my speakers (Focals). I do love the rears (Def techs) btw. Any recommendation on what to listen to? i know it may be completely objective but knowing my little bit of background just wondering opinions on speakers. In essence i want a great balance between home theater and music sound (don't we all?).
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post #30 of 154
5/30/12 at 2:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaksbro View Post

Ok gents, lets assume it is my speakers (Focals). I do love the rears (Def techs) btw. Any recommendation on what to listen to? i know it may be completely objective but knowing my little bit of background just wondering opinions on speakers. In essence i want a great balance between home theater and music sound (don't we all?).

The biggest problem is probably the way you ran audyssey. I would turn it off and see if that gives you an improvement. Then I would try running it again with a tripod and follow the instructions in the first post of the official audyssey thread.
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