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Denon 2312CI not impressed... - Page 5

post #121 of 159
So is a consensus forming in this thread that Audyssey and corner placement are not compatible?

I didn't necessarily hear the OP suggest that the non-Audyssey config sounds bad, but the consensus solution to fix the Audyssey-enabled sound is to reorient the speakers.

That implies to me Audyssey doesn't "do" corner configs, if the consensus is to be believed.

If the poster measures strictly on/near the centerline of the main speakers instead of his current listening position, would that not eliminate extreme off-axis measurement as a concern?
post #122 of 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by tandy1000rl View Post

So is a consensus forming in this thread that Audyssey and corner placement are not compatible?

I didn't necessarily hear the OP suggest that the non-Audyssey config sounds bad, but the consensus solution to fix the Audyssey-enabled sound is to reorient the speakers.

That implies to me Audyssey doesn't "do" corner configs, if the consensus is to be believed.

If the poster measures strictly on/near the centerline of the main speakers instead of his current listening position, would that not eliminate extreme off-axis measurement as a concern?

Tandy, off-center speaker setup has nothing to do with Audyssey, right? Speakers in a room should always be placed in a symmetric layout, well,... as far as possible. Full stop. Sound stage, imaging, etc, are all at stake. Don't blame Audyssey for cr@ppy results.

I showed the sketch to my little daughter (15) asking her whether there is any oddity here or not. Being no expert at her age she said the front end placed off-axis is kinda weird Dad! Go figure!
post #123 of 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by tandy1000rl View Post

So is a consensus forming in this thread that Audyssey and corner placement are not compatible?

I didn't necessarily hear the OP suggest that the non-Audyssey config sounds bad, but the consensus solution to fix the Audyssey-enabled sound is to reorient the speakers.

That implies to me Audyssey doesn't "do" corner configs, if the consensus is to be believed.

If the poster measures strictly on/near the centerline of the main speakers instead of his current listening position, would that not eliminate extreme off-axis measurement as a concern?

I would have to say yes as my side surround speakers are in the corners and my rear surrounds are close to the corner as well. My seating positions are also closer to the corner.

Unfortunately this is where the room correction is needed the most, but this is where Audyssey fails the worst. Not everyone has a huge room dedicated to the surround system to keep speakers far away from corners, as well as the seating positions.

I have to believe it's mainly the listening position as my position is only 1.5' from the back wall and the main listening position is only 3.5' from the corner and the side listening position is only 2' from the corner.

Everyone who seems to like the Audyssey has their listening position away from the walls.

Luckily I have been able to tune out any subwoofer irregularities with a SPL meter and subwoofer positioning to get awesome response with great punch and seemless immersion with the main speakers. Something the Audyssey Multi EQ COULD NOT DO. After all my main passion is music reproduction in Stereo with surround sound a far second.

Also the judging by the incorrect SPL level adjustments done by the Audyssey system, it doesn't seem to take a collective measurement of all the most audible frequencies as the calibrations signals do with the SPL meter.

Each to their own.

I love the sound of my Denon AVR-2312ci without the Audyssey. Sounds very similar to my awesome Denon powerhouse AVR-3803.
post #124 of 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post


Tandy, off-center speaker setup has nothing to do with Audyssey, right? Speakers in a room should always be placed in a symmetric layout, well,... as far as possible. Full stop. Sound stage, imaging, etc, are all at stake. Don't blame Audyssey for cr@ppy results.

I showed the sketch to my little daughter (15) asking her whether there is any oddity here or not. Being no expert at her age she said the front end placed off-axis is kinda weird Dad! Go figure!

Yes but I'm hearing original poster say this:

Corner position, no Audyssey - good results
Corner position, with Audyssey - bad results

Not this:

Corner position, no Audyssey - bad results
Corner position, with Audyssey - bad results

He also indicates the bad results are due to brightness, not poor imaging and soundstage which one would expect with off-center speakers.

Everyone is suggesting he redo his room to cure brightness...that's what's throwing me off. Simply moving his measurement area to the centerline seems more reasonable to me, especially if that's how he wants the room arranged. He should be able to broadly measure at the ideal listening area, even if he doesn't sit there exactly, and still benefit from room mode correction. Remember we are dealing with room/bubble/area correction, not a single seat.

This is what the guide and FAQ suggest for folks who do not sit directly on the centerline, yes?
post #125 of 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaksbro View Post

Hello all and thanks for giving me a look... so i bought a Denon 2312 a few weeks ago and after playing with many Audyssey settings and calibrating everything im not totally "sold" on the sound im getting. Everything sounds kind of "bright" to me and not necessarily warm. I did get to a point where if i setup the Audyssey setting for Stereo to "bypass L/R" it sounds decent but not how i think it should sound. Now, the person i bought my speakers from swears he would've steered me to something else had i come to him for the receiver as well. He's suggesting an Integra 30.4. Now, i dont know much about this stuff but kind of learning as i go. Is there any reason to believe the Integra will sound better or more to my liking? Or any others to consider that might give me a warmer sound? btw, i have the following speakers:

Focal front Chorus 712
Focal center chorus 700
Paradigm Sub PDR 100
Def tech 5.5 rears

I'd love to hear your opinions out there. And don't mean to offend any Denon owners at all (i may still keep it .

Thanks all.

What made you think Denon AVRS were going to produce a warm sound? I would characterize the Denon AVRs I've heard (including the one I own) to be "dynamic" or "punchy", but never warm or smooth.

As others have offered, you'll hear changes from speaker to speaker far more than AVR to AVR.
post #126 of 159
Thread Starter 
Hello again all, I know this will be met with a firestorm of criticism but I do hear a big difference with the integra recvr. With music sources it sounds more punchier and fuller than the Denon. I'm able to demo it in my home for the next day or 2. please go easy on me. I'm only telling you what I hear. Both units were Audyssey-ized. Again I don't mean to offend Denon owners at all. But maybe integra paired with my spkrs just work better together. I don't know but we shall see. Btw this integra is the 30.3 which I know is a "lesser" Audyssey sw version than the Denon. Thnks as always. I will report back final decision soon.
post #127 of 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaksbro View Post

Hello again all, I know this will be met with a firestorm of criticism but I do hear a big difference with the integra recvr. With music sources it sounds more punchier and fuller than the Denon. I'm able to demo it in my home for the next day or 2. please go easy on me. I'm only telling you what I hear. Both units were Audyssey-ized. Again I don't mean to offend Denon owners at all. But maybe integra paired with my spkrs just work better together. I don't know but we shall see. Btw this integra is the 30.3 which I know is a "lesser" Audyssey sw version than the Denon. Thnks as always. I will report back final decision soon.

Lots of variables. You sure you're listening at the same levels? You sure you calibrated Audyssey exactly the same way? You sure you have all the settings the same for both receivers?
post #128 of 159
Different receivers and speaker combos do sound better than others. If you find a combination that sounds good to you use it. After all at the end of the day meters and software do not determine how good the music sounds to you, your ears do! So if you like it go for it.
post #129 of 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by psblake View Post

Different receivers and speaker combos do sound better than others. If you find a combination that sounds good to you use it. After all at the end of the day meters and software do not determine how good the music sounds to you, your ears do! So if you like it go for it.

No way man...!!!
Don’t you know… all receivers sound the same. It's only the room correction that makes them sound different. Sorry… the rolleyes smiley was the best I could find to show the sarcasm in my post.
post #130 of 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by beaveav View Post


Lots of variables. You sure you're listening at the same levels? You sure you calibrated Audyssey exactly the same way? You sure you have all the settings the same for both receivers?

While i would like to believe all these audio guru out here, what they are saying is that all receivers sound the same. It is like saying all 200hp cars feel the same. If these receivers sound the same then why the price difference from $199 to $2999 ????
post #131 of 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by chikoo View Post

While i would like to believe all these audio guru out here, what they are saying is that all receivers sound the same. It is like saying all 200hp cars feel the same. If these receivers sound the same then why the price difference from $199 to $2999 ????

That's what I've been saying.
post #132 of 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by chikoo View Post


While i would like to believe all these audio guru out here, what they are saying is that all receivers sound the same. It is like saying all 200hp cars feel the same. If these receivers sound the same then why the price difference from $199 to $2999 ????

If price is how you measure things, I have some Bose speakers to sell you.
post #133 of 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by rnatalli View Post


If price is how you measure things, I have some Bose speakers to sell you.

Right. One good example is Bose.

However, price is one way to measure, all else being equal.
post #134 of 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by chikoo View Post


Right. One good example is Bose.

However, price is one way to measure, all else being equal.

Price is probably the worst possible way to compare products. It's completely disconnected from performance.
post #135 of 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by suffolk112000 View Post

No way man...!!!
Don’t you know… all receivers sound the same. It's only the room correction that makes them sound different. Sorry… the rolleyes smiley was the best I could find to show the sarcasm in my post.

Funny how, even though you were trying to be sarcastic, you were actually correct. Hey, if the placebo effect is what it takes for the OP to enjoy his system, so be it. The placebo effect is very powerful, and that's not limited to audio.
post #136 of 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post


Price is probably the worst possible way to compare products. It's completely disconnected from performance.

While i know what you mean, your statement is incorrect in a market economy. A communist economy might be the right place where everything is supposed to cost the same.
post #137 of 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by chikoo View Post


While i know what you mean, your statement is incorrect in a market economy. A communist economy might be the right place where everything is supposed to cost the same.

You both have good points, but every once in a while, something comes along to upset the axiomatic applecart. I'm thinking primarily about the value speaker line Andrew Jones designed for Pioneer, but I'm sure we can identify more examples if we devote enough brain cells to it.
post #138 of 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by chikoo View Post

While i know what you mean, your statement is incorrect in a market economy. A communist economy might be the right place where everything is supposed to cost the same.

You really believe that drivel?
post #139 of 159
Which drivel?

The one i wrote or the one which states all amps are the same regardless of the difference in components used to build it?
post #140 of 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by chikoo View Post

Which drivel?

The one i wrote or the one which states all amps are the same regardless of the difference in components used to build it?

The political drivel...
post #141 of 159
political theory and the emotional politics of audiophile mythology.. a volatile mix!
post #142 of 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by chikoo View Post


While i know what you mean, your statement is incorrect in a market economy. A communist economy might be the right place where everything is supposed to cost the same.

Clearly, you don't know what I mean.

My comment had nothing to do with either politics or enforcing standardized pricing. The discussion here is using price differential as an indicator of performance. No one (other than you) has somehow managed to link that with standardized pricing and communism.
post #143 of 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

Clearly, you don't know what I mean.

My comment had nothing to do with either politics or enforcing standardized pricing. The discussion here is using price differential as an indicator of performance. No one (other than you) has somehow managed to link that with standardized pricing and communism.

Guys, I have a feeling this thread is being hijacked. Let's try to help the OP with his setup issues, OK?
post #144 of 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaksbro View Post

Hello again all, I know this will be met with a firestorm of criticism but I do hear a big difference with the integra recvr. With music sources it sounds more punchier and fuller than the Denon. I'm able to demo it in my home for the next day or 2. please go easy on me. I'm only telling you what I hear. Both units were Audyssey-ized. Again I don't mean to offend Denon owners at all. But maybe integra paired with my spkrs just work better together. I don't know but we shall see. Btw this integra is the 30.3 which I know is a "lesser" Audyssey sw version than the Denon. Thnks as always. I will report back final decision soon.

If you like the Intrgra better there is nothing wrong with that at all.
How much do you want for the used Denon shipped to Dallas, TX ?
post #145 of 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post


Clearly, you don't know what I mean.

My comment had nothing to do with either politics or enforcing standardized pricing. The discussion here is using price differential as an indicator of performance. No one (other than you) has somehow managed to link that with standardized pricing and communism.

That is because i do my own thinking, not repeat what other established gurus in their field state.

Anyhow, if pricing is not indicative of performance(in most cases, not exceptions), then what does pricing reflect? Let me have your thoughts on that one.
post #146 of 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by joehonest View Post

The amps in the denon 2312 are no help. The denon amps are not high current output, were as the onkyo are. In many cases this could be the one big factor for the way your system sounds close to or at reference levels..

You see, I would love to go out bashing random companies, but I don't have the backing for my claims so I don't go out bashing them. Unless you would care to PM me or post the measurements that the amps in the Denon are bad, you probably should not complain about something you don't even know about. Also about Audussey 2EQ. How do you know it is the best version? Many people have said that it is bad, then you come along, saying it MIGHT be the best one ever. I thought you had 6 years of experiece with Audussey? So why don't you post the proof or PM it to me then we will trust you.
post #147 of 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by chikoo View Post

Anyhow, if pricing is not indicative of performance(in most cases, not exceptions), then what does pricing reflect? Let me have your thoughts on that one.

features, construction materials (plastic vs metal) brand status which would include the $$$ for marketing behind the product, manufacturing process (quality control, hand assembled vs automated, etc...), manufactured in Bangladesh vs North America, outsourced components vs in house component, etc etc...
post #148 of 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by jproy13 View Post


features, construction materials (plastic vs metal) brand status which would include the $$$ for marketing behind the product, manufacturing process (quality control, hand assembled vs automated, etc...), manufactured in Bangladesh vs North America, outsourced components vs in house component, etc etc...

Correct. So according to you, construction materials(external) bring the price up but not internal boards and other internal electronic components that actually provide for better performance?
One thing to consider is that a brand name is a goodwill that is earned over the years by providing a good product and service.
post #149 of 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by [Irishman] View Post


You both have good points, but every once in a while, something comes along to upset the axiomatic applecart. I'm thinking primarily about the value speaker line Andrew Jones designed for Pioneer, but I'm sure we can identify more examples if we devote enough brain cells to it.

These speakers are the darlings of the forum, but I have heard them and in my opinion they compete well in their price bracket and that's it.
In every speaker lineup I have ever auditioned all you need to do to hear a better speaker is to go one model up.
Is the improvement worth the money?
Each individual has to decide for themselves.
In the retail chain there are some exceptions to more $$$$$ equating to better sound, but that is mostly individual preference for one brand over another.
Within the same brand the more expensive speaker almost always sounds better.
post #150 of 159
I know this is an older thread but I wanted to comment on the 2312CI as well. I'm not impressed either. I went from a Integra 5.9 (awesome) to a Onkyo 608 (decent) to a Epson Ensemble (decent) to a Denon 2312CI (not impressed) and now to a cheap Onkyo HT-R290. I gotta say, I missed the clear punch of an Onkyo! The difference between Onkyo and Denon are pretty clear. Not as good as Marantz or Harmon Kardon, but good enough for me. The Denon is clear, smooth, but I feel like the sound is hiding behind the speakers. I ran the Audyssey XT 8 times with different speakers including Boston VR20s, Boston CR9s, Polk RT8s, or Infinity 200.6's in the front, Klipsch or a JBL studio center, Velodyne or JBL sub, Bic Venturi V62 or DBXs in the rear. I just could not get the sound I wanted no matter how hard I tried. So today I got the Onkyo R290, hooked it up and didn't touch the settings and Wow! That Denon just doesn't come close. I liked everything about the Denon except the sound. Thanks
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