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Full quality multichannel SACD impossible on Denon AVR-3312?

post #1 of 31
5/31/12 at 8:16am
Thread Starter 
I've recently became a proud owner of Denon's AVR-3312 (-:

Now I'm doing some research on buying universal player. One concern came to my mind - is it even possible to get full quality multichannel audio from SACD using AVR-3312? Correct me if I'm wrong, but the only possible ways to do so are:

- player decoding DSD and sending analog multichannel audio to AVR - but 3312 doesn't have multichannel analog input,
- player streaming DSD over HDMI and AVR decoding DSD - but 3312 can't decode DSD.

Am I right that the only option to play multichannel SACDs in 3312 is via LPCM (lossy when comparred to DSD) over HDMI?

As for 2CH audio, would the best way to connect player be via analog audio?

One more question: Denon BDP-1611 spec lists 8 D/A converters, for every channel - are they only used when downmixing decoded multichannel audio to stereo (since it does not have analog multichannel output)?

(Let's just hope I won't hear the difference between DSD and LPCM...)
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post #2 of 31
5/31/12 at 8:43am
A lot of it depends on what SACD player you have and what it will output to your receiver when playing SACD.

It also depends, of course, on having a SACD disc which has multichannel tracks available on it it; most do not; some do.

The OPPO BDP-95 has more capabilities than most; you may be able to look up its operating manual online at the OPPO website.

Most players do not put out ANY DSD at all.

The BDP-95 also has eight output jacks to feed the 7.2 analog inputs of the receiver/subwoofers ; that is the best way to do it if you can.



Quote:
Originally Posted by matemaciek View Post

I've recently became a proud owner of Denon's AVR-3312 (-:

Now I'm doing some research on buying universal player. One concern came to my mind - is it even possible to get full quality multichannel audio from SACD using AVR-3312? Correct me if I'm wrong, but the only possible ways to do so are:

- player decoding DSD and sending analog multichannel audio to AVR - but 3312 doesn't have multichannel analog input,
- player streaming DSD over HDMI and AVR decoding DSD - but 3312 can't decode DSD.

Am I right that the only option to play multichannel SACDs in 3312 is via LPCM (lossy when comparred to DSD) over HDMI?

As for 2CH audio, would the best way to connect player be via analog audio?

One more question: Denon BDP-1611 spec lists 8 D/A converters, for every channel - are they only used when downmixing decoded multichannel audio to stereo (since it does not have analog multichannel output)?

(Let's just hope I won't hear the difference between DSD and LPCM...)
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post #3 of 31
5/31/12 at 8:56am
The player can also decode the DSD to PCM and pass via HDMI to the 3312CI which is actually the best way as it utilizes Audyssey whereas if there were multi ch analog inputs on the 3312CI you would not be able to use Audyssey which owners of the Denon 4311CI (which can decode the DSD) indicate it's much better to use Audyssey then not using it.
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post #4 of 31
5/31/12 at 9:02am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

The player can also decode the DSD to PCM and pass via HDMI to the 3312CI which is actually the best way as it utilizes Audyssey whereas if there were multi ch analog inputs on the 3312CI you would not be able to use Audyssey which owners of the Denon 4311CI (which can decode the DSD) indicate it's much better to use Audyssey then not using it.

jd,

I agree 100% as I'm using HDMI with Audyssey for all SACD listening whether it is 2CH or MCH. If you are listening to a MCH SACD you would want to use the PCM setting even when using the MCH analog input. If you use the DSD setting in say the Oppo for a MCH SACD you lose all bass management and speaker settings (trim levels and distance) using the MCH analog output.

Bill
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post #5 of 31
5/31/12 at 9:22am
Thread Starter 
What a relief (-:

I'm considering 3 players (in brackets price in Poland, since they're a little bit different that in "the rest of the world" /-: ):

Denon 1611 (500$)
Denon 2012 (840$)
Oppo 93 (930$)

[Oppo 95 is too expensive for me - 1580$]

The main question is: is it worth stepping from 1611 to 2012? As for sound quality the main differnce is AL32 - which I guess won't be used when playing PCM over HDMI?

I've heard a lot of good things about Oppo players, if 93 costed 500$ I would buy it without a doubt - but it's almost 2x cost of 1611...
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post #6 of 31
5/31/12 at 9:50am
Although Denon's proprietary AL24 and AL32 is ONLY used with PCM audio, AFAIK, neither is featured on the 2012UD. I'm not familiar with any of those models, but you're likely to find a dedicated owner's thread for each one in the Blu Ray forum. Below is the 2012UD to get you started ...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1316233
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post #7 of 31
5/31/12 at 9:56am
Thread Starter 
Yeah, AL24/AL32 is applied to PCM, but does it end up as PCM or as analog? If I understand correctly (but I may be wrong, as a newbie in this field) ALXX is part of player's DAC, which will be sitting there useless when audio is traveling via HDMI. Or maybe ALXX converts lower frequency/bitrate PCM to higher frequency/bitrate PCM?
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post #8 of 31
5/31/12 at 10:24am
Huh? HDMI audio travels through the DAC so AL24/32 would still be applied.
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post #9 of 31
5/31/12 at 10:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

Huh? HDMI audio travels through the DAC so AL24/32 would still be applied.

Sure, HDMI audio is digital, so it ultimately passes through a DAC to be converted to analog. But that does not occur in the source (player); it occurs in the sink (AVR or pre/pro).

AJ
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post #10 of 31
5/31/12 at 10:58am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

Huh? HDMI audio travels through the DAC so AL24/32 would still be applied.

Yep, but it travels through avr's DAC - which in my case have only 2ch AL24, compared to 8ch AL32 in Denon DBP-2012.
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post #11 of 31
5/31/12 at 12:10pm
^^
AFAIK, the 2012UD doesn't feature AL32 or AL24 so no worries there.
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post #12 of 31
5/31/12 at 5:39pm
If you're only going to use HDMI for SACD just get an inexpensive SONY Blu-ray player which plays SACD.

ALxx is NOT a feature of Denon 2012 (Denon 2012 US page).

NOTE:
Current Denon and Oppo players decimate DSD to 88.2kHz PCM.
SONY players decimate DSD to 176.4kHz PCM.

Denon's AL24 or AL32 in the receiver upsamples PCM. SONY already outputs a higher resolution and therefore a simpler and better way to do it.
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post #13 of 31
5/31/12 at 10:55pm
Thread Starter 
Thanks Kilian.ca. I've confused 32-BIT/192-KHZ D/A CONVERTERS with AL32 (on US page it's clearly distinguished, when compared to polish page).

I'd buy Sony, but I want playback of DVD-A - for now my collection of DVD-As is bigger then SACDs (OK, they're both small, but still...). But if Sony then what? Do they produce any HiFi players? Could for example BDP-S780/790 be considered HiFi? (I see one old model, BDP-S5000ES, for 1820$ here - too much, way too much...)
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post #14 of 31
6/1/12 at 12:31am
If you need DVD-A then you need a universal player. In that case you might want to consider the Yamaha BD universal player since it also outputs 176.4kHz PCM from SACDs.

With the Deon AVR-3312 you have to use HDMI for multi-channel SACD/DVD-A. If you're using HDMI then it's not critical that it has to be a "HiFI" player, which really is for those using analogue outputs. You're just using the player as a "transport", not using its DAC at all.
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post #15 of 31
6/1/12 at 2:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilian.ca View Post

If you're only going to use HDMI for SACD just get an inexpensive SONY Blu-ray player which plays SACD.

ALxx is NOT a feature of Denon 2012 (Denon 2012 US page).

NOTE:
Current Denon and Oppo players decimate DSD to 88.2kHz PCM.
SONY players decimate DSD to 176.4kHz PCM.

Denon's AL24 or AL32 in the receiver upsamples PCM. SONY already outputs a higher resolution and therefore a simpler and better way to do it.

+1 for this. I have a 2 years old entry level Sony BD player and use for SACD as well. Now I've never owned the Oppo so I can't make any comparison. I can tell you that when I listen to SACDs, I have no desire to acquire an Oppo or anything else. It does a pretty good job in my opinion.

The PS3 will also do that and is a bit more flexible for setting and tuning.

cheers
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post #16 of 31
6/1/12 at 4:39am
^^
Note that not all PS3s (esp newer slim models) can play SACDs.
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post #17 of 31
6/1/12 at 6:47am
matemaciek: in days of flac/mkv files is pretty pointless investing money into expensive BD/DVD player if you can either use 3312 as media player for flac 24/192 or buying cheap media player with 24/192 output through HDMI especially if you plan to use digital connection between them, of course it all depends on if it make sense for you and if it siuts your needs. Other part of the consideration is quality of your speakers and what is the expectation of your music reproduction but you can be sure that with 3312 there won't be any significant difference between DSD and LPCM otherwise you could spend money on separate stereo amplifier instead. I couldn't recognized any difference when I did my test with flac files, I used external media player (dune HD D1) connected through HDMI into 3312 and direct LAN connection between synology and 3312 (in this case used as player), output was the same as both connection were digital and analog conversion has been done by 3312 in both cases.
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post #18 of 31
6/1/12 at 7:20am
Thread Starter 
Maybe I'm a little bit too old fashioned, but I like the moment of opening the box, taking out the disc and inserting it into player... (-;

OK, I've crossed out OPPOs and Denon 2012 of the list as too expensive, which leaves me with:
Denon 1611 - I hope it's price will go down when 1713 will come to market
Yamaha 1010 - A little bit more expensive, but harder to get
Sony 790 (or even 590) - half the price, but no DVD-A... Maybe some older, used Denon for DVD-A (any hints?)...
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post #19 of 31
6/1/12 at 10:46am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

^^
Note that not all PS3s (esp newer slim models) can play SACDs.

gotcha!
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post #20 of 31
6/1/12 at 1:47pm
You will not notice even a teeny tiny bit of difference between DSD->DAC and DSD->PCM->DAC, so don't worry about getting a player that does that.

As for the PS3, I honestly don't think the newer models are even worth buying, personally. They removed one feature after another with them. First they made the PS2 compatibility worse when they removed the EE. Then they removed it completely. Then they removed Linux. I think they cut down on the # of USBs at some point. They removed SACD. etc. Dear Sony: SCREW YOU. I guess for people who only care about PS3 (and PS1... that's still there) games and CD/DVD/BD might still like it, but I'll stick to the older models.
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post #21 of 31
6/1/12 at 1:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonoMan View Post

You will not notice even a teeny tiny bit of difference between DSD->DAC and DSD->PCM->DAC, so don't worry about getting a player that does that.

+1.

Get a Denon DBP-1611 and call it a day. Denon + Denon look fabolous together:



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post #22 of 31
6/1/12 at 2:08pm
Thread Starter 
Yeah, look is one of the advantages of 1611 (especially when compared to Sony) (-: Now I'll only wait for 1713 enter to bring 1611 price down.
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post #23 of 31
6/1/12 at 4:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonoMan View Post

You will not notice even a teeny tiny bit of difference between DSD->DAC and DSD->PCM->DAC, so don't worry about getting a player that does that.

As for the PS3, I honestly don't think the newer models are even worth buying, personally. They removed one feature after another with them. First they made the PS2 compatibility worse when they removed the EE. Then they removed it completely. Then they removed Linux. I think they cut down on the # of USBs at some point. They removed SACD. etc. Dear Sony: SCREW YOU. I guess for people who only care about PS3 (and PS1... that's still there) games and CD/DVD/BD might still like it, but I'll stick to the older models.

lol tell us how you really feel, the "fat" PS3 don't play SACD, but the "slim" one does.
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post #24 of 31
6/1/12 at 5:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jproy13 View Post

lol tell us how you really feel, the "fat" PS3 don't play SACD, but the "slim" one does.

Really? I guess I got that one backwards. My bad. As is probably obvious, I don't like it when companies take features away, especially when they specifically said they would never do so (e.g. Linux).
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post #25 of 31
6/1/12 at 5:59pm
^^
You got it right ... the last 1/2 of the PS3 "fat" models as well as all the slim models cannot play SACD.

http://www.hardcoreware.net/playstation-3-model-guide/
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post #26 of 31
6/1/12 at 10:52pm
Thread Starter 
Simmilar chart (but more models covered): http://www.ps3sacd.com/faq.html#_Toc180147566
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post #27 of 31
6/1/12 at 11:54pm
Is the 3312 Denon Link compatible? There's a thread in the CD player forum 'Does Denon Link Really Matter' that's worth a read. I was in your same situation and located a used Denon 2930CI multi-disk player for $275, audio transport is via DL3. Oppo schmoppo
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post #28 of 31
6/2/12 at 1:47am
Thread Starter 
Saddly no DL in 3312 )-: Only current AVR with DL is 4311, witch is twice the price of 3312 here.
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post #29 of 31
6/2/12 at 2:24am
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonoMan View Post

Really? I guess I got that one backwards. My bad. As is probably obvious, I don't like it when companies take features away, especially when they specifically said they would never do so (e.g. Linux).

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

^^
You got it right ... the last 1/2 of the PS3 "fat" models as well as all the slim models cannot play SACD.

http://www.hardcoreware.net/playstation-3-model-guide/

mmmmhhmm...foot...
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post #30 of 31
6/2/12 at 2:47am
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonoMan View Post

You will not notice even a teeny tiny bit of difference between DSD->DAC and DSD->PCM->DAC, so don't worry about getting a player that does that.

As for the PS3, I honestly don't think the newer models are even worth buying, personally. They removed one feature after another with them. First they made the PS2 compatibility worse when they removed the EE. Then they removed it completely. Then they removed Linux. I think they cut down on the # of USBs at some point. They removed SACD. etc. Dear Sony: SCREW YOU. I guess for people who only care about PS3 (and PS1... that's still there) games and CD/DVD/BD might still like it, but I'll stick to the older models.

they removed Linux from ALL of the systems via FW update for the older systems and not having in the slim firmware to begin with. That was most likely the plan once Sony got wind of the hackers.

The PS3 is a fine blu-ray player and gaming machine especially at $300.

They took out the card readers and 2 usb ports and complete PS2 compatability. The only reason they still have the PS1 compatability is because it is software emulated.

FYI, the second gen 60GB model was the first to start removing features and it was a fat one... There were actually 3 generations of HW released before the SLIM model......
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