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Samsung PN60E7000 Vs. Panasonic P60ST50

post #1 of 64
Thread Starter 
Before reading any further I want to mention that these observations are ones made with factory sets and prior to any professional calibration. As others have pointed out, the professional reviews are reviews outlining performance both before and after professional calibration. I would expect the results of my comparisons would change quite post professional calibration. I just wanted to post my "Joe consumer" impressions between these two sets out of box. There is nothing at all scientific that led me to these observations so keep that in mind as you read my impressions.


Hooked up a new PN60E7000 so I could do a direct comparison between it and the p60ST50 I have had for about 2 weeks. I had the Sammy hooked up via HDMI and ST50 hooked up via component cables so I could compare DTV viewing simultaneously.

Initial impressions using CNET's E8000 settings and CNET's ST50 settings:

Black levels look noticeably darker on the ST50 compared to the E7000. This had a really big impact on almost all material I viewed. Colors pop more and there seems to be more depth to the image on the ST50. I think the ST50's superior black level performance is single biggest image quality factor out of all the items I will bring up. My daughter commented on the E7000's letterbox bars and how they seemed dark grey in comparison. With the two running side by side you can definitely see why everyone is so concerned about black level performance and can easily see the positive impact better black levels have over the overall image quality.

It might be my perception but the black levels on the E7000 seemed brighter to me than on the D7000 last year. This goes against everything I have been reading about this years Samsung models and it might be a perception issue since I am now used to the really nice black levels of the ST50.

Brightness: The ST50 clearly gets brighter than the E7000 but in a controlled lighting environment like my basement this is really a non-issue as the E7000 gets plenty bright. It may be more of a consideration in a brightly lit room but even then, I don't think the E7000 would have an issue.

Glare: Both TVs fared really well. No problems with either related to excessive screen glare.

Sharpness: Hands down, the E7000 get sharper. With the E7000's sharpness at 20, it is sharper than the ST50's sharpness set at 100. This can be a pro or a con depending on your viewing preference but I like the ability to go sharper on the E7000.

Motion: I had been complaining about the ST50s motion handling but when I compared the two they are very similar. I think overall cinema smooth provides a slightly smoother more movie like image but it is an almost imperceptible difference between the two. I do like the ability to turn on motion smoothing on the ST50 but this is something I rarely use.

Input lag: The E7000 has very bad input lag in any mode other than Game mode where the Panasonic set performs good in both Custom mode (with all processing off) and Game mode. This is a benefit as you can tweak the image in Custom mode on the St50 whereas, game mode for both sets is rather locked down concerning changing the image settings.

Concerning gaming visuals, I have to give a big nod in favor of the ST50 and I think it all goes back to how deep and controlled its black levels are. This has a major impact on the depth and overall appeal of games. Games like Dead Space look much better on the St50 simply due to its black level performance.

3d (Did not test this at all, not a big fan of 3d and never use it)

Buzzing: The ST50 is by no means buzz free. It's buzz is the standard plasma buzz that increases as the screen gets brighter. Nothing I, or anyone else who has owned a plasma set is not use to. The E7000 I received, unfortunately has an audible buzz from the minute you turn it on regardless of content that is, or isn't being displayed on the screen. it is very directional and affects the central viewing position the worst. This might be a deal breaker for me. I had the same problem with two D7000 sets I returned last year. It is a very high pitched constant buzz.

Image Noise: I feel the Samsung set handles compression noise and motion artifacts better than the ST50. It is not as large a leap this year as it was between say, last years D7000 and ST30 but it definitely edges out the St50 in terms of cleaning up motion artifacts.....

Overall: For normal TV viewing or Sat broadcasts, the E7000 has a very clean, natural picture and gets very sharp for a plasma set. (For anyone who is use to LCD TVs and wanting to take the plasma leap, this is a great set since it can get closer to the sharpness that LCDs offer if that is your thing) The colors are warm and saturated and appear to be pretty accurate. it handles motion very well but I think I am going to stick with the ST50 because it has much deeper black levels and that alone pays pretty large dividends when watching almost any content on the set. The ST50 has very nice colors as well that are punchier, a much cleaner image compared to last years models and overall presents the better image across all media I tested. If gaming is a big part of your viewing, I would recommend the ST50 over the E7000.

Both are really awesome TVs and depending on what you are looking for I don't think you will go wrong with either set. For me, the black level performance makes all the difference in the world. I now have a complete understanding why everyone on these forums is so crazy about black levels. In this area alone, the ST50 is just way better than the E7000 and this alone has the single biggest impact over what you see on screen.

Now if Samsung could get their black levels to Panasonic 2012 levels and Panasonic could offer a slightly cleaner image and have sharpness control as good as Samsung we would have the perfect set. As it stands, both have their issues but both are really great TVs. I'm sticking with the ST50 is simply a personal preference. It is pretty cool to have the ability to check them both out in house. side-by-side, viewing the same content.

edit: I really did not go into Blu ray content. Both offer an extremely clean image with uncompressed HD content. Due to the better contrast ratio on the ST50 it just makes everything pop off the screen better. Sweeny Todd is a great blu ray to compare black levels and it looked ABSOLUTELY AMAZING on the ST50 but still really good on the E7000.

Update:

Sound. Being that I never use the built in speakers I am a little bias and both sound crappy. But if you will be, the ST50 has better low end but sounds rather tinny in the upper end, the E7000 sounds somewhat muted/muffled but for tvs this thin I don't know how we can really ask for too much more. Tiny speakers put out tiny sound.

Fade to black issue on E7000 presented itself. Screen turns completely off when there is very little or no light output in the signal. Easily resolved by bumping brightness up to 46 from 45 which has no noticeable impact on picture quality.

Buzzing on E7000. Hard for me to gauge if this will be a big problem as I have not gone through the motions of mounting it on the wall. It does not appear it will be a huge problem.
post #2 of 64
Thank you for the comparison.

I purchased an E7000 recently that should arrive Monday. I chose it over some other sets mainly based on the fact that I read many customer reports saying that it handles HDTV content better than some (which you also seem to confirm) and that is what I watch the most (Directv).

Like you said, if Panasonic improved here and Samsung improved there they could make the perfect set. Will probably never happen.
post #3 of 64
Thread Starter 
No doubt. I still have a few weeks where I can tweak and compare both sets. My findings above were after only about 3 hours with both of them side by side watching the same thing.

What really blew me away is how much darker the ST50 gets. It is a night and day difference. It is also obvious to me that the Samsung gets much sharper. I will try to post a picture of both with a black scene. When you watch them side by side it become really apparent how important or how much of an impact black level has on overall image quality.

I am not brand loyal and I will keep whichever one does most of what I want it to do the best. Both are really great sets in their own right. I will say the Buzz on the samsung set really has me concerned. If I end up going with it I may have to swap it out for another to see if the buzz is any better. It is pretty bad.

It is such a toss up with normal DTV content I can't really tell you which I like better. You get a sharper image with the E7000 but a much better contrast and punchier image with the ST50. Pick your poison I guess.
post #4 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by BiotypE View Post

No doubt. I still have a few weeks where I can tweak and compare both sets. My findings above were after only about 3 hours with both of them side by side watching the same thing.

What really blew me away is how much darker the ST50 gets. It is a night and day difference. It is also obvious to me that the Samsung gets much sharper. I will try to post a picture of both with a black scene. When you watch them side by side it become really apparent how important or how much of an impact black level has on overall image quality.

I am not brand loyal and I will keep whichever one does most of what I want it to do the best. Both are really great sets in their own right.

It is such a toss up with normal DTV content I can't really tell you which I like better. You get a sharper image with the E7000 but a much better contrast and punchier image with the ST50. Pick your poison I guess.

Your findings were spot on as far as I'm concerned. I had an E8000, and was very disappointed in the black levels. They seriously looked worse than my C8000 from 2010. The image looked a bit sharper as you say but the set just seemed to carry too many traits of an LCD. Yes, the image looked clean and sharp, but blacks didn't look very good at all.

I took ownership of my ST50 yesterday and the black levels are insane! The picture may not look as sharp/clean as the samsung, but it's still better than previous years...the black level just puts it over the top. I definitely prefer the look of the ST50 more, and can confirm that input lag is much better as well. I'm hoping I can use the WOW disc to get game mode somewhat calibrated, as it is definitely more responsive, but either mode is faster than the E8000 regardless.
post #5 of 64
What about screen uniformity? I have read tons of complaints of blops and banding etc. on panny and almost none on sammy.

And image retention? Seems like ST50 is just as worse on ir as last year sets while sammy 60-64 models are pretty much immune to ir.

How do you find those things? I think those are bigger issues than some black level difference.
post #6 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jtm79 View Post

What about screen uniformity? I have read tons of complaints of blops and banding etc. on panny and almost none on sammy.

And image retention? Seems like ST50 is just as worse on ir as last year sets while sammy 60-64 models are pretty much immune to ir.

How do you find those things? I think those are bigger issues than some black level difference.

Screen uniformity is fine on my set with no signs of banding or color blops. I can't comment on IR because I haven't put it through situations that would allow for it yet. So far it's been great.
post #7 of 64
Thread Starter 
I have had about two weeks more with the ST50 but there are no screen uniformity issues with this set. I also did not notice any issue with the E7000. IR on the ST50 is a complete non issue. I have played BF3 (few hours at a time) which has the Squad names in bright green and see no hint of IR at all. This was a big issue on my ST30 from last year.

I have watched numerous letter boxed movies on the ST50 as well with no IR. Not sure where you are reading that the ST50 is worse than last years models. I have found the exact opposite as my ST30 had pretty bad IR. Nothing that didn't go away after a few minutes but it was definitely something I noticed.

Both set are a vast improvement over last year concerning line bleed which I considered to be horrible on last years models. You have to really look for it when it does occur on these new sets which seems to be pretty rare.

I have not gamed nearly as much on the E7000 so I can't comment on IR nearly as accurately as I can the ST50 but I have read it is much improved in this area as well this year.

I also purposely watched part of a hockey game (even though hockey is not my thing) given the peak brightness of the ST50 it seemed a much more enjoyable viewing experience (brighter whites) I did not notice any brightness pops on either set as the camera panned from goal to goal.
post #8 of 64
Thanks Biotype for the excellent comparison. I've had an E8000 for a couple of days now and I'm facing the same decision. While I enojy the crisp clean image of the Samsung, I feel that I can't quite dial in a picture that I really like. With both Blu-Ray and DTV, too often I find the image to look a bit white-washed and some colors lacking pop. I'm replacing a 7yr old Fujitsu plasma that I feel had better black levels than the Sammy. I'm considering trying the Panny but not sure if the lack of sharpness (as compared to the Sammy) and image noise will sit well with me. If you didn't have the sets side by side, would the sharpness of the Panny (or lack there of) been a concern? I would imagine the better black levels and contrast would result in a preceived sharp image on the Panny.

Thanks
post #9 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by jav1 View Post

Thanks Biotype for the excellent comparison. I've had an E8000 for a couple of days now and I'm facing the same decision. While I enojy the crisp clean image of the Samsung, I feel that I can't quite dial in a picture that I really like. With both Blu-Ray and DTV, too often I find the image to look a bit white-washed and some colors lacking pop. I'm replacing a 7yr old Fujitsu plasma that I feel had better black levels than the Sammy. I'm considering trying the Panny but not sure if the lack of sharpness (as compared to the Sammy) and image noise will sit well with me. If you didn't have the sets side by side, would the sharpness of the Panny (or lack there of) been a concern? I would imagine the better black levels and contrast would result in a preceived sharp image on the Panny.

Thanks

It all depends on what you're feeding the Panny. The image looks super sharp and detailed on my 60ST50, and that's with Cablevision. My wife and I were watching Harry Potter and laughing about how beautifully ugly Dumbledore looked on the new set. The Sammy is so sharp it almost looks artificial...almost like it's an LCD as I had said earlier. Get the ST50 and love it.
post #10 of 64
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jav1 View Post

Thanks Biotype for the excellent comparison. I've had an E8000 for a couple of days now and I'm facing the same decision. While I enojy the crisp clean image of the Samsung, I feel that I can't quite dial in a picture that I really like. With both Blu-Ray and DTV, too often I find the image to look a bit white-washed and some colors lacking pop. I'm replacing a 7yr old Fujitsu plasma that I feel had better black levels than the Sammy. I'm considering trying the Panny but not sure if the lack of sharpness (as compared to the Sammy) and image noise will sit well with me. If you didn't have the sets side by side, would the sharpness of the Panny (or lack there of) been a concern? I would imagine the better black levels and contrast would result in a preceived sharp image on the Panny.

Thanks

Well to be honest, I acquired the E7000 due to what I thought was clarity issues with the ST50, turns out watching them side by side that it is really not the TV at all but more the signal. The Samsung cleaned up bad HD content better than the ST50, but, the clean HD Sat signals fared better on the Panasonic so it is really a wash.

I guess the best way do describe the difference is that due to the ST50s excellent black level performance, everything on screen seems to have more weight to it, more solidity. Hard to describe. This is evident in literally everything I watch when comparing the two. I don't know if it is better shadow detail or what but objects in the foreground seem more pronounced on the ST50, not sharper but just more present.

Now keep in mind, these are just my observations and what I call a positive others might consider a negative. I will go back to my original post, the excellent black levels on the ST50 trump almost every other attribute related to image quality when I compare the two sets. I love the E7000s ability to sharpen up the image but to my eye, it does not compensate for its inability to keep up with the ST50 when it comes to brightness and black level.
post #11 of 64
Just curious as to how these sets compare with SD signals ?
TTwomotor
post #12 of 64
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ttwomotor View Post

Just curious as to how these sets compare with SD signals ?
TTwomotor

I watched an X-files episode over Amazon instant video (SD) on the ST50 just last night and it did as good as can be expected. When you start getting in the 60 inch or larger size, there is really not a whole lot to be said about SD performance on any set. It was certainly adequate on the ST50. I did not test this on the E7000.

No matter how they compare, SD on a large TV is basically like putting perfume on a pig. No matter what scent you spray on..... it still stinks, it is just a matter of which stinks worse. I try VERY hard not to watch any SD content for this very reason.
post #13 of 64
thats interesting I wonder why the e7000's black levels are so poor, the e8000 was practically on part with the gt50. Have you tried ditching CNET's settings and putting both sets on cinema mode? When I did this at BB they blacks definitely seemed comparable. The GT looked darker overall but not darker blacks.
post #14 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by hov333 View Post

thats interesting I wonder why the e7000's black levels are so poor, the e8000 was practically on part with the gt50. Have you tried ditching CNET's settings and putting both sets on cinema mode? When I did this at BB they blacks definitely seemed comparable. The GT looked darker overall but not darker blacks.

Chad B wrote something similar to what you're saying in his comparison of the GT & 8000, of course we're discussing the ST & 7000 if that makes a difference?

Chad B wrote: "Black levels are more similar than different, though the GT50 is darker by a hair."
post #15 of 64
Biotype, did you by chance pay any attention to sound? With the Sammy I had to fiddle quite a bit to get something decent but overall it's not that good. Wondering if the Panny is any better. I don't like running audio through my stereo all the time so this has some importance to me.
post #16 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by ruiz00tx View Post

Chad B wrote something similar to what you're saying in his comparison of the GT & 8000, of course we're discussing the ST & 7000 if that makes a difference?

Chad B wrote: "Black levels are more similar than different, though the GT50 is darker by a hair."

good reference, that's exactly the post I was thinking about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jav1 View Post

Biotype, did you by chance pay any attention to sound? With the Sammy I had to fiddle quite a bit to get something decent but overall it's not that good. Wondering if the Panny is any better. I don't like running audio through my stereo all the time so this has some importance to me.

biotype may have a different opinion, but I think the panny's sound is much better. Its able to cover the lower, bassier tones, not just the highs.
post #17 of 64
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ruiz00tx View Post

Chad B wrote something similar to what you're saying in his comparison of the GT & 8000, of course we're discussing the ST & 7000 if that makes a difference?

Chad B wrote: "Black levels are more similar than different, though the GT50 is darker by a hair."


Good question. I tried everything I could on the 7000 to get it even close to the ST50 and it was not even in the same ballpark. I will try tonight to upload an image that shows the difference. It wasn't like the 7000 had bad black levels, they just look bad when you directly compare the two sets.

Everything I have read states there is no difference in pq between the 7000 and 8000 and given Chad B.s impressions and measurements I was caught off guard how lacking the 7000s perceivable black level performance is in comparison.
post #18 of 64
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hov333 View Post

good reference, that's exactly the post I was thinking about.



biotype may have a different opinion, but I think the panny's sound is much better. Its able to cover the lower, bassier tones, not just the highs.

This is one area I did not test at all. I run all audio through an Anthem MRX 300. I will give this a test this evening and post what I find.
post #19 of 64
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hov333 View Post

thats interesting I wonder why the e7000's black levels are so poor, the e8000 was practically on part with the gt50. Have you tried ditching CNET's settings and putting both sets on cinema mode? When I did this at BB they blacks definitely seemed comparable. The GT looked darker overall but not darker blacks.

I will give this a try and come back and let you know my findings. In a moderately lit room it isn't as easily noticeable. In a dark or almost dark room the difference is pretty striking. I would think this might be difficult to gauge on the shelf at Best Buy.

Makes me wonder if I have something incorrectly configured on the Samsung. Going back to Deathrattleheads post above, he seems to have the same impressions related to the black level performance differences. This is definitely not my first go around with Plasma sets so If there is something I have mis-configured, I don't have any idea what it would be.

Keep in mind, neither of these two sets have been professionally calibrated so that might account for the noticeable difference in black levels. Not sure.
post #20 of 64
Cnet measured E8000 to have better blacks than ST50. Also the brightness should be more or less equal. Im afraid to buy panny. There are just too many people complaining all sort of uniformity issues and ir. I rather listen slight buzzing than get non uniform ir prone screen :P
post #21 of 64
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jtm79 View Post

Cnet measured E8000 to have better blacks than ST50. Also the brightness should be more or less equal. Im afraid to buy panny. There are just too many people complaining all sort of uniformity issues and ir. I rather listen slight buzzing than get non uniform ir prone screen :P


I know, I read the same review (this is the 7000 not the 8000) not sure if that matters. All I can say is I have them both hooked up and the ST50 definitely gets darker, it is not even questionable based off what I am seeing. These are both uncalibrated which also may account for the difference. If I had a camera that takes good low light images I would post them.

I also noticed the screen turning off during fade to blacks on the e7000 but as someone else posted on the main Samsung thread, bumping the brightness to 46 from 45 resolved this.

I am not trying to sell either set. I actually like them both. If screen uniformity is a concern I can say it is a non issue on the ST50 I have in house.
post #22 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by BiotypE View Post

I know, I read the same review (this is the 7000 not the 8000) not sure if that matters. All I can say is I have them both hooked up and the ST50 definitely gets darker, it is not even questionable based off what I am seeing. These are both uncalibrated which also may account for the difference. If I had a camera that takes good low light images I would post them.

I also noticed the screen turning off during fade to blacks on the e7000 but as someone else posted on the main Samsung thread, bumping the brightness to 46 from 45 resolved this.

I am not trying to sell either set. I actually like them both. If screen uniformity is a concern I can say it is a non issue on the ST50 I have in house.

A couple of factors to come into play here for the ST50. The 60 and 65 inch sets have slighter better black levels than the 55 inch set that CNET tested. Also depending on how many hours you have put on the ST50 it has been tested to having even better black level performance the more hours one puts on the set.
post #23 of 64
My only question is that one is hooked up with component and one is HDMI. It should not make a difference but I do know that HDMI connection gives you the option of a black level setting in the menu. do they look the same when the connection is switched?

Either way I am a Samsung guy due to its better processing of less than stellar sources: directv and bluray rips. Bluray discs are a minute part of my watching and I need something that handles 720p sources better.
post #24 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jtm79 View Post

Cnet measured E8000 to have better blacks than ST50. Also the brightness should be more or less equal. Im afraid to buy panny. There are just too many people complaining all sort of uniformity issues and ir. I rather listen slight buzzing than get non uniform ir prone screen :P

I've had both in my home and I'm telling you, the ST50 embarrassed the E8000 when it came to black level. The ST50 is extremely inky right out of the box. The E8000 was a real letdown for me when it came to blacks. The E8000 did clean up low quality DVR shows better though.
post #25 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by deathrattlehead View Post


I've had both in my home and I'm telling you, the ST50 embarrassed the E8000 when it came to black level. The ST50 is extremely inky right out of the box. The E8000 was a real letdown for me when it came to blacks. The E8000 did clean up low quality DVR shows better though.

I have to agree. I came from the king of black levels in the Pioneer 500m. Although the ST50 doesn't match the 500m I am VERY impressed on how close it does come.
post #26 of 64
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pwiss View Post

A couple of factors to come into play here for the ST50. The 60 and 65 inch sets have slighter better black levels than the 55 inch set that CNET tested. Also depending on how many hours you have put on the ST50 it has been tested to having even better black level performance the more hours one puts on the set.


This could definitely be a factor. I did a lot more testing and tweaking last night and still could not get the E7000 to the inky black levels I see on the ST50. The E7000 gets pretty dark but when comparing the two, the blacks seem to somewhat glow on it. Certainly not bad in this area, just not nearly as good as the ST50.

I have about 170 hours on the ST50.
post #27 of 64
You can't compare two televisions without properly calibrating them. Using CNET's Settings is no better than hitting reset on all of your settings. There is a huge amount of variance, not only from television to television, but also over the age of a single panel, especially early in its life.

This is evident in the fact that you detected the the E7000's black levels were higher than the D7000's... which they're not, at least when calibrated correctly.
post #28 of 64
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tempest261 View Post

You can't compare two televisions without properly calibrating them. Using CNET's Settings is no better than hitting reset on all of your settings. There is a huge amount of variance, not only from television to television, but also over the age of a single panel, especially early in its life.

This is evident in the fact that you detected the the E7000's black levels were higher than the D7000's... which they're not, at least when calibrated correctly.

Makes perfect sense. Neither of these two sets have been professionally calibrated. Any and all observations I do have are out of box observations with CNETs settings applied. (I did add a little disclaimer in my original post to ensure more is not read into my impressions than I intended)

I have never had a TV professionally calibrated. If it makes that much of a difference I can see it would be worth every penny.

Thank you for pointing that out.
post #29 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by BiotypE View Post

Makes perfect sense. Neither of these two sets have been professionally calibrated. Any and all observations I do have are out of box observations with CNETs settings applied. (I did add a little disclaimer in my original post to ensure more is not read into my impressions than I intended)

I have never had a TV professionally calibrated. If it makes that much of a difference I can see it would be worth every penny.

Thank you for pointing that out.

You probably would have better off just doing a direct comparison of out of the box settings. I think that would have been a fair comparison. In many cases, applying settings from another television can make things *worse* than how it came from the factory.

The only reason CNET or any calibrators post settings is that people demand them, even though they all know that it's a useless endeavor. D-Nice tries to make his settings a bit more meaningful by giving users "panel prep" instructions over a 100 hour period in order to artificially age the panel to a point that it's hopefully close to his test panel- however even he notes that it's nothing close to a real calibration. Chad B. refuses to post his settings altogether because of this.

If one doesn't want to have a professional calibration done, or have the patience and money to go the DIY route, what I recommend to do is to do a "basic calibration" of the basic settings. This means contrast, brightness, color, and tint- all of which can be done with the free AVS HD 709 patterns disc (downloadable/burnable) and a blue filter for the color and tint settings... however there is a trend of not using the blue filter at all now that televisions have blue modes built in (the Samsung will have one at least), and the fact that the filters aren't all that accurate.

Doing this "basic calibration" is near $0.00 cost and will get you MUCH closer to a calibrated level. Also, setting the panel to "warm 2" is almost always a good idea, and it gets the RGB deltas much closer to zero ("normal" is almost always WAY too blue").
post #30 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jtm79 View Post

What about screen uniformity? I have read tons of complaints of blops and banding etc. on panny and almost none on sammy.

And image retention? Seems like ST50 is just as worse on ir as last year sets while sammy 60-64 models are pretty much immune to ir.

How do you find those things? I think those are bigger issues than some black level difference.

And what gave you that idea? Everything I've read seems to suggest that this years models are better than last year.
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