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My upgrade to the Ken Kreisel MX-5000 Mk3 subs - Page 6  

post #151 of 208
^^^

the graph from that link pretty much puts paid to the "flat to 10hz" claim...

http://www.hiendy.com/hififorum/forum.php?mod=attachment&aid=MTI2MzkxfDA3MTY5MTY1fDEzNDA2MjYyNTh8MHwzNjA3NQ%3D%3D

Gear mentioned in this thread:

post #152 of 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

^^^
the graph from that link pretty much puts paid to the "flat to 10hz" claim...
http://www.hiendy.com/hififorum/forum.php?mod=attachment&aid=MTI2MzkxfDA3MTY5MTY1fDEzNDA2MjYyNTh8MHwzNjA3NQ%3D%3D

Where did these graphs come from? Are the outdor measurements? Are they max spl?
post #153 of 208
^^^

dunno... i didn't create them.... the subtitle of the graph indicates "anachoic"... if it is max spl, it certainly isn't much to write home about...

as far as the flat to 10hz goes, it looks to be (making the huge assumption the person doing the measurements didn't mess up) -20db at 10hz, regardless of tuning...
post #154 of 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

^^^
dunno... i didn't create them.... the subtitle of the graph indicates "anachoic"... if it is max spl, it certainly isn't much to write home about...
as far as the flat to 10hz goes, it looks to be (making the huge assumption the person doing the measurements didn't mess up) -20db at 10hz, regardless of tuning...

I think those measurements are probably in-room, or at least the word 'anechoic' seems to be a subtitle to the EQ Mode: 'THX', 'Anechoic' & 'Max Boom', rather than the graph as a whole.

Adam smile.gif
post #155 of 208
^^^

entirely possible... smile.gif i'm not good at reading people's minds... tongue.gif

as noted, the huge assumption is that the person doing the measurements did it right*.... going on that assumption, the "performance" of the sub is does not measure up to equally (or much lesser) priced competitors, let alone go flat to 10hz...

* an assumption i do not like to make, however, owners are unwilling/unable to provide us with anything else to work with...
post #156 of 208
Actually the green response looks like it should for a sealed sub outdoors. No sub is flat to 10hz without EQ, tune, room gain, etc.. When someone states flat to 10hz with a natural response of that green response that is possible. Actually, not hard at all, but the questions becomes at what spl and how many are needed for a real reference level experience.
post #157 of 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

^^^
entirely possible... smile.gif i'm not good at reading people's minds... tongue.gif
as noted, the huge assumption is that the person doing the measurements did it right*.... going on that assumption, the "performance" of the sub is does not measure up to equally (or much lesser) priced competitors, let alone go flat to 10hz...
* an assumption i do not like to make, however, owners are unwilling/unable to provide us with anything else to work with...

Agreed I wouldn't want to jump to any conclusions from this graph. smile.gif

Assuming I or someone else had the opportunity, what type of measurements would satisfy people here? I have a calibrated ECM8000 and REW.

Adam smile.gif
post #158 of 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Actually the green response looks like it should for a sealed sub outdoors. No sub is flat to 10hz without EQ, tune, room gain, etc.. When someone states flat to 10hz with a natural response of that green response that is possible. Actually, not hard at all, but the questions becomes at what spl and how many are needed for a real reference level experience.

In post number 15, I mentioned having seen quite a few frequency response graphs showing fairly flat response to under 10Hz. The problem was that the level was 78 db. Given that the threshold of audibility at 10Hz is 100 DB, flat to 10Hz at less than 100 DB is useless.

Also, to achieve usefull response from 10Hz on up usually requires a compromise in output at the higher frequencies where most programming lies.

The graphs showing the MK 3 down 20 db at 10Hz is what one can expect from the MK 3.

The MK3 would face fierce competition from the Seaton Submersive and the JTR Captivator.
post #159 of 208
I agree about the levels but the response of the THX setting or green response clearly shows a correctly designed sealed sub with no EQ applied. In a room with EQ this will naturally flatten out to whatever frequency the user wishes to get with an LT circuit. Then one just buys enough to get to desired levels which of course is the real question. Most sealed subs are down 20 dBs at 10hz from 40hz without EQ outdoors, this sub clearly shows a correct rolloff for a sealed sub. The question should be what levels can it hit, like I have been saying all along. I am assuming it will sound great, the spl's it what matters.
post #160 of 208
This is what I have been warning people about; a frequency response graph taken at 80 DB. IIRC, the threshold of audibility at 20Hz is 90 DB, and as I noted before the threshold of audibility at 10Hz is 100DB. The following graph is essentially useless. The poster actually says straight out that the SVS PC Ultra has more ultra deep bass.

The MK 3 is a good sub but not worth $3,000. These days the competition is just much too fierce what with the Seaton Submersive and JTR Captivator, not to mention the DIY options.



KenKreiselMX-5000mk3byKANE.jpg
post #161 of 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by spyboy View Post

This is what I have been warning people about; a frequency response graph taken at 80 DB. IIRC, the threshold of audibility at 20Hz is 90 DB, and as I noted before the threshold of audibility at 10Hz is 100DB. The following graph is essentially useless. The poster actually says straight out that the SVS PC Ultra has more ultra deep bass.
The MK 3 is a good sub but not worth $3,000. These days the competition is just much too fierce what with the Seaton Submersive and JTR Captivator, not to mention the DIY options.
KenKreiselMX-5000mk3byKANE.jpg

The guy with that graph also says that the MK3 sounds better than the ultra and who knows what people will pay for better sound to them. Also, unless a sealed sub has some kind of EQ or low end boost the ported sub will always have more low end. We don't know all the details. Some people say they like their submersive better than their ultra and others say the same thing this guy did. I know a member who thinks his submersive sounds better for music than his Ultra but prefers his ultra with movies. This guy said the same thing. Now, the submersive is $800 cheaper than the KK sub but some people will pay for the extra THX lables, designer, etc... We at AVS love the bang for buck value as even you spyboy have ID subs and I have ID DIY kits. So we clearly like subs with similar, same, or better performance and sacrifice name, THX, whatever reasons. Many people don't, to each their own. I bet this sub will sound great and measure at least 103-106 dBs outdoors at 20hz so it can have more spl than it's early versions. I would expect it to since it costs more than the earlier versions. To me, and my opinion, if it measures the same then it fails.
post #162 of 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I agree about the levels but the response of the THX setting or green response clearly shows a correctly designed sealed sub with no EQ applied. In a room with EQ this will naturally flatten out to whatever frequency the user wishes to get with an LT circuit. Then one just buys enough to get to desired levels which of course is the real question. Most sealed subs are down 20 dBs at 10hz from 40hz without EQ outdoors, this sub clearly shows a correct rolloff for a sealed sub. The question should be what levels can it hit, like I have been saying all along. I am assuming it will sound great, the spl's it what matters.

most may be, but all are not...

it would be an awful big ask to gain 20db from eq and room gain.... possible i suppose, since anything is...

on that note, i'm out until someone produces some data...
post #163 of 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

most may be, but all are not...
it would be an awful big ask to gain 20db from eq and room gain.... possible i suppose, since anything is...

That is just it, it depends on what these measurements were, outdoors this is typical for a sealed sub. Seaton's submersive would look the same and then his DSP boost the low end so he is flat to 18dBs outdoors with the same rolloff from 20-10hz. I am not sure of the KK sub. If these settings are real and the THX setting is no EQ than the others show flat to 20hz but with a 16 dB rolloff rather than 12 dBs so 10 dBs would be harder to achieve than the seaton. The THX setting seems like we can use but then we have to apply our own EQ which makes this like a raw sub for people to tweak, like the CHT subs. Of course for the money it should be done and the two EQ's show this but again, rolling off just a bit steep for a natural sealed sub.
post #164 of 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

That is just it, it depends on what these measurements were, outdoors this is typical for a sealed sub. Seaton's submersive would look the same and then his DSP boost the low end so he is flat to 18dBs outdoors with the same rolloff from 20-10hz. I am not sure of the KK sub. If these settings are real and the THX setting is no EQ than the others show flat to 20hz but with a 16 dB rolloff rather than 12 dBs so 10 dBs would be harder to achieve than the seaton. The THX setting seems like we can use but then we have to apply our own EQ which makes this like a raw sub for people to tweak, like the CHT subs. Of course for the money it should be done and the two EQ's show this but again, rolling off just a bit steep for a natural sealed sub.

Basically I am saying that the natural response is good, their EQ options I don't like as much.
post #165 of 208
Can I ask if anyone round here actually listens to subs? Or do they just measure them and go for the loudest or the deepest?
post #166 of 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dav1dF View Post

Can I ask if anyone round here actually listens to subs? Or do they just measure them and go for the loudest or the deepest?

Don't even try to go there! biggrin.gif
post #167 of 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

The guy with that graph also says that the MK3 sounds better than the ultra and who knows what people will pay for better sound to them. Also, unless a sealed sub has some kind of EQ or low end boost the ported sub will always have more low end. We don't know all the details. Some people say they like their submersive better than their ultra and others say the same thing this guy did. I know a member who thinks his submersive sounds better for music than his Ultra but prefers his ultra with movies. This guy said the same thing. Now, the submersive is $800 cheaper than the KK sub but some people will pay for the extra THX lables, designer, etc... We at AVS love the bang for buck value as even you spyboy have ID subs and I have ID DIY kits. So we clearly like subs with similar, same, or better performance and sacrifice name, THX, whatever reasons. Many people don't, to each their own. I bet this sub will sound great and measure at least 103-106 dBs outdoors at 20hz so it can have more spl than it's early versions. I would expect it to since it costs more than the earlier versions. To me, and my opinion, if it measures the same then it fails.

The main issue is the unsubstantiated "flat to 10Hz claim", and the graph might fool some people into thinking the "flat to 10Hz" claim is true. The graph seems to be the first measured in real world conditions at the listening position. Unfortunately, it looks to have been taken at a useless 80 DB. If people with deep pockets want to pony up 3 grand apiece for the KK 5000 so be it, but they shouldn't be fooled by nonsense like "High Velocity Pulsar" sales jargon or meaningless claims of flat to 10Hz (at a useable 100 DB).

I fully expect higher output if only because of the 800 watt amp rather than the 400 watt amp. It would be most disappointing if KK couldn't nudge several more DB out of a redesign of an 18 year old model. redface.gif
post #168 of 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

^^^

dunno... i didn't create them.... the subtitle of the graph indicates "anachoic"... if it is max spl, it certainly isn't much to write home about...

as far as the flat to 10hz goes, it looks to be (making the huge assumption the person doing the measurements didn't mess up) -20db at 10hz, regardless of tuning...

While I really didn't want to jump in on a sub about another product, I wanted to point out that some of the hatred and vitriol might be a bit misplaced. The classic M&K subwoofers actually did maintain a 12dB/octave, sealed roll off, and then had different low extension depending on the mode chosen.

Assuming the PDF measurements above were taken outdoors, or more likely taken near field at the dustcap, they make perfect sense, and aren't too far off what the SubMersive's original response is (in PGM1 mode). Check the level of signal drop between 10-20Hz and you can see what sort of roll off the subwoofer has, as this represents a full octave. I wouldn't be surprised at all if this subwoofer showed an *in-room* magnitude response with modest roll off into the 10Hz range, similar to what most SubMersive owners have found. This is a key potential benefit of a sealed subwoofer which is only possible when the manufacturer doesn't electronically high pass the lowest frequencies.

As spyboy has and will again harp on, there is then the question of how useful that extension is. I disagree that response curves are useless at less than maximum output, but it is important to see the response curve as only half way there. Bag End's subwoofer designs are a good example of this. First you need the extension, then you need sufficient output. Using a sealed subwoofer with plenty of extension, you have an advantage that no 20Hz ported subwoofer has, in that doubling the number of subwoofers will keep kicking the output up 6dB until it is very useful.

There can be plenty of debate as to value Ken Kreisel's latest subwoofer represents to different enthusiast, but the general performance noted by customers is explainable and not unexpected. I suspect the package he chose and brand history will be very attractive to plenty, especially in countries and applications where space is at a much higher premium.
post #169 of 208
^^^

mark, thanks for jumping in... smile.gif

i entirely admit that i could be wrong (wouldn't be the first time, that's for sure)...

dunno if it can be described as "hatred and vitriol" though... smile.gif
post #170 of 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

While I really didn't want to jump in on a sub about another product, I wanted to point out that some of the hatred and vitriol might be a bit misplaced. The classic M&K subwoofers actually did maintain a 12dB/octave, sealed roll off, and then had different low extension depending on the mode chosen.
Assuming the PDF measurements above were taken outdoors, or more likely taken near field at the dustcap, they make perfect sense, and aren't too far off what the SubMersive's original response is (in PGM1 mode). Check the level of signal drop between 10-20Hz and you can see what sort of roll off the subwoofer has, as this represents a full octave. I wouldn't be surprised at all if this subwoofer showed an *in-room* magnitude response with modest roll off into the 10Hz range, similar to what most SubMersive owners have found. This is a key potential benefit of a sealed subwoofer which is only possible when the manufacturer doesn't electronically high pass the lowest frequencies.
As spyboy has and will again harp on, there is then the question of how useful that extension is. I disagree that response curves are useless at less than maximum output, but it is important to see the response curve as only half way there. Bag End's subwoofer designs are a good example of this. First you need the extension, then you need sufficient output. Using a sealed subwoofer with plenty of extension, you have an advantage that no 20Hz ported subwoofer has, in that doubling the number of subwoofers will keep kicking the output up 6dB until it is very useful.
There can be plenty of debate as to value Ken Kreisel's latest subwoofer represents to different enthusiast, but the general performance noted by customers is explainable and not unexpected. I suspect the package he chose and brand history will be very attractive to plenty, especially in countries and applications where space is at a much higher premium.

Thanks Mark, I was trying to explain what you said, you just do it much better than me. wink.gif
post #171 of 208
Hope the Op can chime in regarding his newly acquired toys, as it would be nice to hear his views. Thanks to Mark for chiming in.
post #172 of 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by AngelEyes View Post

I think those measurements are probably in-room, or at least the word 'anechoic' seems to be a subtitle to the EQ Mode: 'THX', 'Anechoic' & 'Max Boom', rather than the graph as a whole.
Adam smile.gif

I could do some translation on Chinese part if Ken Wu doesn't mind.

In the post 17# (from www.hiendy.com), Troy (HK dealer for KK) says:

- "THX" (green curve) equals to original M&K's THX mode, which rolls down -12dB from 50 Hz to 20 Hz.
- "Standard" (a.k.a Anechoic, blue curve) equals to original M&K's Extend mode, which rolls down -6dB from 30 Hz to 20 Hz.
- "Bass Boost" (a.k.a Max Boom, red curve) lifts up 2dB @ 20Hz from "Standard" mode.

(So, if you know how the original M&K subwoofer was measured, you know how the new KK subwoofer is measured.)

The subwoofer is preset to "Standard" mode and can be set to "THX" before shipping. There is no mode switch on the panel for user selection. "Bass Boost" mode is not recommended.

Edited by junglesun - 6/27/12 at 2:01am
post #173 of 208
Thanks for the translation, that clarifies things a bit.

I guess we assume these are semi-anechoic (outdoor measurements) then which does look better than I initially thought. My personal preference is for a sealed sub that kicks like a mule in the upper bass, and I would expect this to do so. Whether or not it represents value compared to other offerings at a similar price is another matter.

Adam smile.gif
post #174 of 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by AngelEyes View Post

Thanks for the translation, that clarifies things a bit.
I guess we assume these are semi-anechoic (outdoor measurements) then which does look better than I initially thought. My personal preference is for a sealed sub that kicks like a mule in the upper bass, and I would expect this to do so. Whether or not it represents value compared to other offerings at a similar price is another matter.
Adam smile.gif

Looking forward to some graphs on the 5000 from audioholics etc. i wonder if it measures well, will the negative posters acknowledge this. Good to see cctoenj accept that he may have been wrong.
post #175 of 208
This place is just so full of opinions. It's no wonder I don't even come around here. I thought I would pop in to see some talk about the new KK MX-5000 MK3 subs, and find this garbage. I know, theres always better and your so much smarter than the inventor of the powerd sub. I have known ken for years, if he says it plays down to 10 believe me, it does. I just dont understand why all you guys get in to pissing matches about whos sub is better. Who cares, about that, cant everyone be happy for ken and his new product??????? Jeez, take a chill people.
post #176 of 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by 45_ACP_AUTO View Post

This place is just so full of opinions. It's no wonder I don't even come around here. I thought I would pop in to see some talk about the new KK MX-5000 MK3 subs, and find this garbage. I know, theres always better and your so much smarter than the inventor of the powerd sub. I have known ken for years, if he says it plays down to 10 believe me, it does. I just dont understand why all you guys get in to pissing matches about whos sub is better. Who cares, about that, cant everyone be happy for ken and his new product??????? Jeez, take a chill people.
There are so many internet tough guys and know-it-alls that, unfortuantely, you will never be rid of them. Watch how they have their set in stone opinion, until one of their heros comes on and posts, them all of a sudden they minds can be changed after all. LOL!! it is so funny and predictable! Your best bet is to stay away from getting too caught up in the mindless banter that is continually spewed on AVS. I mean look at some of the post counts these members have, get some fresh air people!!
post #177 of 208
As a former M&K Professional MPS 5410 sub owner, I was intrigued by Ken's new offerings. I got an email from Ken the other day about his new pricing structure and couldn't believe the prices that I was seeing. The prices are pretty high. From the level of quality that I have heard from the JTR and Seaton sub lines, Ken will have some fierce competition indeed. I still wouldn't mind hearing what Ken's new subs can do. I have fond memories on how my professional M&K speakers and subs sounded at home.
post #178 of 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by wonka1 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by AngelEyes View Post

Thanks for the translation, that clarifies things a bit.
I guess we assume these are semi-anechoic (outdoor measurements) then which does look better than I initially thought. My personal preference is for a sealed sub that kicks like a mule in the upper bass, and I would expect this to do so. Whether or not it represents value compared to other offerings at a similar price is another matter.
Adam smile.gif

Looking forward to some graphs on the 5000 from audioholics etc. i wonder if it measures well, will the negative posters acknowledge this. Good to see cctoenj accept that he may have been wrong.

i freely admit that i can be wrong...

however, i STILL want to see in-room measurements at a decent spl... we've yet to see "proof"...
post #179 of 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by 45_ACP_AUTO View Post

This place is just so full of opinions. It's no wonder I don't even come around here. I thought I would pop in to see some talk about the new KK MX-5000 MK3 subs, and find this garbage. I know, theres always better and your so much smarter than the inventor of the powerd sub. I have known ken for years, if he says it plays down to 10 believe me, it does. I just dont understand why all you guys get in to pissing matches about whos sub is better. Who cares, about that, cant everyone be happy for ken and his new product??????? Jeez, take a chill people.

i "trust" nobody when they "say" stuff... regardless of what they have invented or how much smarter they are than i...

i "trust" test results...

of which, we've seen one that indicates that it may be possible (with the bass boost applied, which is a "not recommended" configuration)...

the rest is just blah blah blah... no one is really saying "oh xyz is better than zyx"... all that has ever been asked for was some proof backing up a statement...
post #180 of 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by 45_ACP_AUTO View Post

I just dont understand why all you guys get in to pissing matches about whos sub is better.

Hmmm. I came to this forum recently to escape that kind of thing as I was an interested poster on a Seaton Submersive thread on a UK forum but found that the sub was being rubbished by people that had never heard one until the thread was closed.

My next contribution was to a JL Audio thread in which someone stated that a chappie selling JL Audio subs "seemed to be a very experienced guy he believes all subs and speakers should be sealed a ported speaker sub never works" I politely queried that on the basis that many manufacturers and users of ported subs would disagree with that statement to be told "I do not think it is fair to start making fun of such good folk when sat behind a PC." and that if I continued along that line my future posts would be deleted.

It seems that intolerance is alive and kicking on both sides of the big divide so perhaps I should look for an Australian community to join smile.gif
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AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers › My upgrade to the Ken Kreisel MX-5000 Mk3 subs