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My upgrade to the Ken Kreisel MX-5000 Mk3 subs - Page 2  

post #31 of 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjf_uk View Post

I agree that nothing was blown out of proportion, until your sarcastic comments started. There was no need for it.

I'm not being sarcastic. Since you refused to answer any questions about how you arrived at your "flat to 10hz" claim, my comments were questioning the validity of your claim. If you didn't want to be questioned, then don't make the unsupported statement in the first place.

I'm certainly not the only member in this thread who asked for validation. Why so sensitive?

Gear mentioned in this thread:

post #32 of 208
Alright lets just start fresh, how were you able to determine its flatness to 10hz? I'm curious and would love to know the performance of these subs!
post #33 of 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

I'm not being sarcastic. Since you refused to answer any questions about how you arrived at your "flat to 10hz" claim, my comments were questioning the validity of your claim. If you didn't want to be questioned, then don't make the unsupported statement in the first place.
I'm certainly not the only member in this thread who asked for validation. Why so sensitive?

It's too late to act all innocent now. You clearly were being very sarcastic. I see no point in any further discussion. But no doubt you have plenty more to say.
post #34 of 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjf_uk View Post

It's too late to act all innocent now. You clearly were being very sarcastic. I see no point in any further discussion. But no doubt you have plenty more to say.

Again - how is asking for you to name the tool you used or to post measurements sarcastic? Your refusal to answer the questions many posed now leads me to believe you don't actually have them.

Of course, you could put me in my place and post the factual data. Or not.
post #35 of 208
No offense but remember just because you were offended doesn't mean the opposing party is wrong. Several members here asked kindly on how you get to your claim of being flat to 10hz. I assume you are using measuring equipment since you said you don't have accurate enough equipment to measure below 10hz. If so which? omnimic?
post #36 of 208
I sent an email to the website's support address asking for information such as the sub's frequency response and possibly some compression data. The request was forwarded to KK who responded saying, "We do not have available for release the particular graphs and printed measurements you mentioned."

I was directed to the website where they stated the typical in-room response for the 12" & 8" subs to be...

Typical in Room Frequency Response 10 Hz - 200 Hz
Typical in Room Frequency Response 15 Hz - 200 Hz

respectively.

Not much useful information can be gleaned from the above. After all, just what kind of room are we talking about and there are no tolerances given. Perhaps in quite a smallish room that's hermetically sealed one might get enough room gain to bump things up at the lower frequency. However, for anyone to remotely think or post that adding a single sub is going to give a flat response to 10 Hz is somewhat delusional especially without corroborating evidence.

A lot has happened since Kreisel re-entered the business especially with an increasing number of consumers becoming more savvy WRT subwoofer performance and willingness to undertake measurements. Certainly Kreisel's name has some gravitas associated with it. He probably has good access to the more reputable driver and amplifier manufacturers and I hope his choices prove to be reliable. After all, with a stated 5-year warranty they better be or he'll find himself in the same dire straits that ED now is. But IMO, to willingly hand over good money, and he's charging good money, without something more than a lot of words to substantiate performance is not the most prudent course. At this stage of the game, it remains to be seen whether KK's subs are true competitors or just poseurs.
post #37 of 208
Has anyone reviewed these subs ?
post #38 of 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by qguy View Post

Has anyone reviewed these subs ?

They only recently became available. At a price of $2995 and not publishing any substantial information regarding their performance...I don't know. I really liked the old M&K brand but as has been said earlier in the thread times are very different now.
post #39 of 208
A dual 12" 800 watt sealed box, with "natural roll-off of 12dB/octave" is a pretty old school design. This is kind of laughable to cost $3k, no offense to anyone. I dont really see how it's better then a sub like this for 1/3rd the price, which is basically the same thing without all the hyperbole.

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=300-767
post #40 of 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay1 View Post

A dual 12" 800 watt sealed box, with "natural roll-off of 12dB/octave" is a pretty old school design. This is kind of laughable to cost $3k, no offense to anyone. I dont really see how it's better then a sub like this for 1/3rd the price, which is basically the same thing without all the hyperbole.
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=300-767

That's hilarious!! biggrin.gif
post #41 of 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjf_uk View Post

That's hilarious!! biggrin.gif

I would love to know what the $2k difference is.
post #42 of 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay1 View Post

A dual 12" 800 watt sealed box, with "natural roll-off of 12dB/octave" is a pretty old school design. This is kind of laughable to cost $3k, no offense to anyone. I dont really see how it's better then a sub like this for 1/3rd the price, which is basically the same thing without all the hyperbole.
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=300-767

I don't think that the MK 3 can compete with the likes of the Seaton Submersive or the Captivator, it should be noted that the MX 5000 uses a push-pull design which minimizes even order harmonic distortion.
post #43 of 208
The RS woofers used in the Dayton are very low distortion, the advantages of push/pull arent really a factor anymore. One could always pull the drivers and wire them for this configuration if they really felt strongly about it though.
post #44 of 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

I sent an email to the website's support address asking for information such as the sub's frequency response and possibly some compression data. The request was forwarded to KK who responded saying, "We do not have available for release the particular graphs and printed measurements you mentioned."
I was directed to the website where they stated the typical in-room response for the 12" & 8" subs to be...
Typical in Room Frequency Response 10 Hz - 200 Hz
Typical in Room Frequency Response 15 Hz - 200 Hz
respectively.
Not much useful information can be gleaned from the above. After all, just what kind of room are we talking about and there are no tolerances given. Perhaps in quite a smallish room that's hermetically sealed one might get enough room gain to bump things up at the lower frequency. However, for anyone to remotely think or post that adding a single sub is going to give a flat response to 10 Hz is somewhat delusional especially without corroborating evidence.
A lot has happened since Kreisel re-entered the business especially with an increasing number of consumers becoming more savvy WRT subwoofer performance and willingness to undertake measurements. Certainly Kreisel's name has some gravitas associated with it. He probably has good access to the more reputable driver and amplifier manufacturers and I hope his choices prove to be reliable. After all, with a stated 5-year warranty they better be or he'll find himself in the same dire straits that ED now is. But IMO, to willingly hand over good money, and he's charging good money, without something more than a lot of words to substantiate performance is not the most prudent course. At this stage of the game, it remains to be seen whether KK's subs are true competitors or just poseurs.

Shame...would like to see how these subs do. For their price tags the caps and subms look more attractive since they are proven subs
post #45 of 208
IMO the best data/reviews are on audioholics. At least they have some hard measurements on subs, compression data, max output etc. Hopefully kreisel will do this as his new products do need some quality reviews. Do the seatons submersives have such published data? I have never heard one, but they are incredibly well regarded by some knowledgeable forum members. In terms of the new 5000's design, I do not think the design being old school is an issue if it performs well. The submersive is a fairly straightforward design, certainly does not have the engineering in it's drivers like a jl fathom, but by all accounts has killer performance. At the end of the day it is a products performance that should matter the most.
post #46 of 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by wonka1 View Post

IMO the best data/reviews are on audioholics. At least they have some hard measurements on subs, compression data, max output etc. Hopefully kreisel will do this as his new products do need some quality reviews. Do the seatons submersives have such published data? I have never heard one, but they are incredibly well regarded by some knowledgeable forum members. In terms of the new 5000's design, I do not think the design being old school is an issue if it performs well. The submersive is a fairly straightforward design, certainly does not have the engineering in it's drivers like a jl fathom, but by all accounts has killer performance. At the end of the day it is a products performance that should matter the most.


The Submersive HP costs $2300, it has dual 15" woofers, and a 2400 watt amp. The amp applies boost to the low end, it has a setting for smaller rooms (less boost) and large rooms (more boost). It can actually have a flat in room response without room gain.

The $3000 KK sub does not apply any boost, it has smaller drivers, and less power.


The fact that the submersive HP handles 3 times as much power, with larger drivers (more efficient), means these subs really aren't in the same performance category.
post #47 of 208
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay1 View Post

The Submersive HP costs $2300...

OK, I really didn't want to get pulled into this but inaccuracies need to be addressed since some folks seem hung-up on price:

Base cost for a Submersive HP per Seaton Sound is "$2,295 + shipping (typ. $135-160 ground shiping cost)" plus "Piano Black - +$600 (limited production - availability varies - TBA)".

The total delivered price is between $3025 - $3055 in Piano Black.

The MX-5000 Mk3 has a simulated black leather front/top/back with Piano Black sides for $2995 delivered.

Still not an apples to apples comparison but more accurate than just saying $2300 vs $3000.

Now, as the OP I'll remind people that I started this thread to share my experiences not start flame wars or compare the MX-5000 Mk3 to subs I have no experience with.
post #48 of 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by image1 View Post

OK, I really didn't want to get pulled into this but inaccuracies need to be addressed since some folks seem hung-up on price:
Base cost for a Submersive HP per Seaton Sound is "$2,295 + shipping (typ. $135-160 ground shiping cost)" plus "Piano Black - +$600 (limited production - availability varies - TBA)".
The total delivered price is between $3025 - $3055 in Piano Black.
The MX-5000 Mk3 has a simulated black leather front/top/back with Piano Black sides for $2995 delivered.
Still not an apples to apples comparison but more accurate than just saying $2300 vs $3000.
Now, as the OP I'll remind people that I started this thread to share my experiences not start flame wars or compare the MX-5000 Mk3 to subs I have no experience with.

SubMersive HP Subwoofer - (ships within 2 days to 1 week - finish dependent)

DSP Controlled (manufacturer only) 2400W high efficiency amplifier - fully assembled in the US.
120V nominal operation only.
Dual opposed, 15" sealed subwoofer.
$2,295 + shipping (typ. $135-160 ground shiping cost)
$2,195 each + shipping for multiples or for current SubMersive owners.
Dimensions: 24.25" W x 17.5" D x 25.5" H (including feet & grills)
Weight: 124 lbs
Packed for shipping: 29" W x 22.5" D x 30" H, 138 lbs
Black Satin - Non-stocking finish, replaced with our new Black Maple finish.
Real wood veneer options with magnetic grills
Black Oak veneer - standard price (ready-2 business days)
Black Maple veneer -standard price (ready-2 business days)

Maple veneer - +$100 (ready-2 business days)
Espresso stained cherry veneer + $200 (ready-2 business days)
Red stained cherry veneer + $200 (ready-2 business days)
Golden cherry veneer + $200 (2 business days)
Vintage cherry veneer + $200 (2 business days)
Rosenut (red stained walnut veneer) +$300 (2 business days)
Piano Black - +$600 (limited production - availability varies - TBA)

Where exactly did finish quality come into anything I commented on? It's up to the individual to decide if it's worth $600 to go from black wood veneer to piano black. That doesnt change the performance being available for a good chunk of change less, which was my point.
post #49 of 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by image1 View Post

OK, I really didn't want to get pulled into this but inaccuracies need to be addressed since some folks seem hung-up on price:
Base cost for a Submersive HP per Seaton Sound is "$2,295 + shipping (typ. $135-160 ground shiping cost)" plus "Piano Black - +$600 (limited production - availability varies - TBA)".
The total delivered price is between $3025 - $3055 in Piano Black.
The MX-5000 Mk3 has a simulated black leather front/top/back with Piano Black sides for $2995 delivered.
Still not an apples to apples comparison but more accurate than just saying $2300 vs $3000.
Now, as the OP I'll remind people that I started this thread to share my experiences not start flame wars or compare the MX-5000 Mk3 to subs I have no experience with.
. Looking forward to your impressions. When do you receive the sub?
post #50 of 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay1 View Post

The Submersive HP costs $2300, it has dual 15" woofers, and a 2400 watt amp. The amp applies boost to the low end, it has a setting for smaller rooms (less boost) and large rooms (more boost). It can actually have a flat in room response without room gain.
The $3000 KK sub does not apply any boost, it has smaller drivers, and less power.
The fact that the submersive HP handles 3 times as much power, with larger drivers (more efficient), means these subs really aren't in the same performance category.

Pure speculation based on specs, again. The MX-5000 actually has 3 settings for the output, but as you don't know the full details of the design, you wouldn't know that. Also, is the Submersive amp 2400w RMS or peak? As the MX-5000 amps peak at 2200w.

Bigger is not neccessarily better. I would expect the Submersive to dig deeper than the MX-5000, but that would only make it a better Subwoofer if depth was the most important thing. Generally, a design that maximises the depth tends to compromise other areas. So while the specs may look a little more impressive to some, and many people wrongly assume that 15" drivers are always better than 12" drivers, specualtion and assumptions really don't mean a thing.
post #51 of 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay1 
Where exactly did finish quality come into anything I commented on? It's up to the individual to decide if it's worth $600 to go from black wood veneer to piano black. That doesnt change the performance being available for a good chunk of change less, which was my point.

He was making the point that the MX5000 IS piano black finish, so he was comparing like for like prices, which was quite obvious.

I do find this obsession with specs quite amusing. Yes, the specs will tell you something about ultimate capability, but let's face it, when we get to this sort of price point, the performance you'll get is going to be top notch. it will then be down to how well engineered the products are, and what little extras the manufacturer has added in to improve things and make their products stand out from the increasingly 'samey' products we are starting to see.

I find the thread crapping I've come across on various threads today quite childish and unnecessary, and obviously goes to show there are individuals that have been made a little uncomfortable by Ken's return to an industry that he pioneered.
post #52 of 208
^^^

incorrect assumptuion on price point.... there are many rather expensive items that don't perform to their price point... subwoofers fall easily into that category... there's a real good reason why there is a thriving internet direct community for subs...

asking for proof of a claim isn't "thread crapping"... someone tossed out a "flat to 10hz" claim... proof was asked for... as many of us in this thread know (and as chu explicitly pointed out), that's a rather strong claim, and if someone is going to make it, they better bring something to the table to back it up...

it really has nothing to do with "comfort level"... i, and i'd guess the rest of the posters in this thread, don't really care one way or another if someone is returning to an industry... makes zero difference to me... if anything, as a consumer, it benefits me for there to be more players in the game...
post #53 of 208
I didn't say that that aspect was thread crapping. You seemed to jump to its defence though.
post #54 of 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dav1dF View Post

He was making the point that the MX5000 IS piano black finish, so he was comparing like for like prices, which was quite obvious.
I do find this obsession with specs quite amusing. Yes, the specs will tell you something about ultimate capability, but let's face it, when we get to this sort of price point, the performance you'll get is going to be top notch. it will then be down to how well engineered the products are, and what little extras the manufacturer has added in to improve things and make their products stand out from the increasingly 'samey' products we are starting to see.
I find the thread crapping I've come across on various threads today quite childish and unnecessary, and obviously goes to show there are individuals that have been made a little uncomfortable by Ken's return to an industry that he pioneered.

Price has very little to do with performance.
post #55 of 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt34 View Post

Price has very little to do with performance.
Agreed, but once you get to a certain price point, the well known subs are of a certain quality level, and will perform very well. It would have to be a real dog of a sub not to sound good at this sort of price point.
post #56 of 208
^^^

while true, not germane... this isn't a "well known" product... it's a brand new product from a well known name...

there's a reason why no one is questioning the performance numbers of some of the comparably priced subs noted in this thread... it's because they ARE well known products... not to mention they have the actual physical properties to support their claims...

the product in question has neither of the above... it is not well known, and let's just say that those numbers sound rather optimistic given the physical properties...

1 measurement... it's all that is being asked for...
post #57 of 208
So if it measures 1Hz lower at the same level than a Seaton or JL, it'll instantly be a better subwoofer?
post #58 of 208
How's about we get some measurements including some compression testing?
post #59 of 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dav1dF View Post

So if it measures 1Hz lower at the same level than a Seaton or JL, it'll instantly be a better subwoofer?

Once some measurements are published, then some reasonable assessment of the sub can begin. If it turns out to be better than the Seaton, its going to sell very well. If it doesn't measure better than the JL, then they have a problem as they are marketed toward different objectives as there is a significant difference in size.

I do find the lack of measurements and the response Chu received to be interesting. Does the statement "We do not have available for release the particular graphs and printed measurements you mentioned." indicate that they don't have the measurements, which is hard to believe, or that they aren't willing to release them, which indicates that they may not be as impressive as the web site claims.

Either way, KK and mx owners could put a quick end to this debate by releasing measurements.
post #60 of 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by image1 View Post

OK, I really didn't want to get pulled into this but inaccuracies need to be addressed since some folks seem hung-up on price:
Base cost for a Submersive HP per Seaton Sound is "$2,295 + shipping (typ. $135-160 ground shiping cost)" plus "Piano Black - +$600 (limited production - availability varies - TBA)".
The total delivered price is between $3025 - $3055 in Piano Black.
The MX-5000 Mk3 has a simulated black leather front/top/back with Piano Black sides for $2995 delivered.
Still not an apples to apples comparison but more accurate than just saying $2300 vs $3000.
Now, as the OP I'll remind people that I started this thread to share my experiences not start flame wars or compare the MX-5000 Mk3 to subs I have no experience with.

Simulated leather = soft plastic. From the front you can't even tell the sides are piano black.

Comparing base prices a Submersive HP is $2,450 while the MX 5000MK3 is $3,000.
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