Floor standing or bookshelf speakers for better control over dialog?

You definitely dont need floorstanders, if anything the added placement difficulties could muddy up the lower midrange. Get 3 of these Infinity Primus P153's for $50 ea. Then add a solid budget receiver with an auto EQ like this Denon 1612. This will ensure you're getting a flat response, but you can still adjust things to your liking if flat isn't working for your hearing. If you dont feel satisfied with the bass, add a budget sub later.

I find that horn loaded tweeters tend to bring vocals to life and can emphasize them better so I would check out these.

http://www.acousticsounddesign.com/c...pid=1765&sc=33

Something else that might be worth considering is the Harman Kardon SB16. It's similar to a 2.1 system, but with additional features. It also doesn't need a receiver, making it very easy to hook up. The sub is wireless as well, so you have flexibility of placement.

No matter what you purchase, you'll probably want to use the dynamic compression feature of your receiver (after setting up the receiver correctly). The Denon model mentioned above calls it "Dynamic Volume" but basically setting this will compress the sound levels (so whispers sound louder but explosions sound quieter). I use this setting at night to not wake up the kids, but it may help if you have a hard time hearing dialogue but don't want explosions to shake the house. Also, a center channel is a really good idea, in fact it's probably the most important speaker of them all so spend your money in the middle and you'll probably be fine.

Is that just for the speakers, or is the receiver to be included? For now, based on what you've implied, we all seem to be assuming that your budget includes the receiver.


Although there are some high quality soundbars, generally they are intended more for convenience than the best quality. Many of them don't even include an actual center speaker, since often the focus is on simulating a surround effect anyway. For your purposes, I think that we can do better with separate components.


In my opinion, you definitely need a center speaker to maximize dialogue intelligibility. This will also give you the option of increasing the volume of the center channel relative to the others, in case this should become necessary.


Not in your case and with your budget--having a good center speaker would definitely be higher in priority.


Great recommendations, as usual. The Primus series has very good midrange performance and dialogue intelligibility for this price point (especially with this discount). There may be a little bit of resonance in the mid-bass, but this should not affect the intelligibility of human voices.

One caution is that this speaker has limited vertical dispersion--it really likes to be positioned at ear-level. If you (speaking to taolit now) orient this speaker vertically, as I would normally recommend for bookshelf speakers being used as centers, then be sure to angle it upward toward the ear level of the viewers. If this is not feasible or you simply prefer to have a horizontally-oriented center speaker, then lay it on its side, and it should work fine for you as long as you sit in the central position horizontally (on-axis). Not that it wouldn't work for all viewers, but my focus here is to ensure that you get the best possible dialogue reproduction because obviously that's what you need.


For these speakers, I would definitely recommend buying the subwoofer from the get-go. Their bass capabilities are limited to the point where it may negatively impact dialogue intelligibility, especially since the midwoofer is crossed over at around 3300 Hz.


Excellent suggestion!

After poking around some more, I think it may be possible to allocate more of your budget to the center speaker with the following components (shipping included):

Denon AVR-1612 - $200 (with shipping estimated at $30)
Dayton Audio B652 - $30
Dayton Audio SUB-800 - $89

Total - $319

This leaves $181 for the center speaker. That's enough for an Ascend Acoustics HTM-200 SE center ($174 shipped), for example. If you could spring for a CBM-170 SE center instead, at $208, that would be advisable, albeit $27 over your budget limit. These speakers are known for their midrange performance, which helps with dialogue.

At $30/pair, the Dayton Audio B652 (for the left & right fronts) is understandably not the greatest speaker around, but to put things into perspective, non-audiophiles are often rather impressed by them (I'm sure some folks out there are rolling their eyes at me ). I don't know whether this system (not something I'd normally recommend) as a whole is better than the matched Infinity-based system recommended above (probably not), but it does place more emphasis on the center speaker, given your specific requirements and budget.

KEF iQ60
http://www.kefdirect.com/iq60c-center-channel.html

KEF iQ10
http://www.kefdirect.com/iq10-booksh...udspeaker.html
Or
KEF iQ30
http://www.kefdirect.com/iq30-booksh...udspeaker.html

Denon 1612, can do the job

In that case, if you wish to spend the least amount of money, then go with the Denon AVR-1612 (it'll do) for $200 (approximately, with shipping estimated at $30), and one of the speaker systems we initially recommended, which would place you under your receiver budget and near the low side of your speaker budget. That's one way to look at it.

Another way is to combine the budgets, making for a total budget of $500-1050, with an emphasis on the low side if possible. In this case, I would recommend the following system:

Ascend Acoustics CBM-170 SE (center) + HTM-200 SE (left & right front) - $498

I've used the CBM-170 SE myself for the past five years, and in my opinion it has the smoothest, most detailed midrange in its price class (I've never gone this long before without becoming irritated with shortcomings in my speakers). If it errs in any noticeable way, it may be a bit "forward" in the upper midrange, but I think this may be a good thing in your case. The HTM-200 SE provides a timbre-matched front soundstage, which makes for a better-sounding system overall, while saving $58 from having three CBM-170 SEs.

Dayton Audio SUB-1000 - $119
-OR-
Dayton Audio SUB-800 + Dayton Audio B652 (surrounds) - $119

For the same price, you could have either a larger, more capable subwoofer or a smaller one plus two surround speakers--this is to trigger the free shipping option for the latter. Or if you need speaker cable and/or other cables, you could buy those from Parts Express instead of the surround speakers and still get free shipping on the less expensive sub.

Denon AVR-1612 - $200

This is where you can go cheap, as the 1612 is still quite capable and feature-filled--including Audyssey MultEQ, which should make a positive difference. Or you could spend a couple hundred more to move up to a receiver that has MultEQ XT--I doubt that would be worthwhile, but others may feel differently.

The total comes out to $817, with the difference from the other system I suggested earlier being the timbre-matched left & right front speakers. If you don't care about that, then go with the $527 system, or mix & match as you please.


Well, the $527 system puts $208 into the center alone and $30 total into the left & right speakers. With such an imbalance, you'll probably want to use Dolby Pro Logic II (with the center width setting dialed all the way down) when listening to two-channel stereo music.

3 identical speakers, is the preferred way to go. Spending more on
a center, is no guarantee. 3 identical speakers, can give you a nice
balanced front stage sound - you can enjoy dialog and other sounds.
A nice timbre (voice) matched system, can be enjoyable.

Would you use a different speaker on the left than the right? Would you mount the left higher or lower than the right? Would you aim the left speaker differently than the right? Of course not. You wouldn't do any of those things. By the same logic, the CC speaker should be the same, identical speaker, mounted at the same height as the L & R, and aimed at the LP, same as the L & R. That is the *ideal* arrangement.

The problem is that many people can't physically accommodate a 3rd identical, vertically aligned speaker, so they get a horizontal CC. Also, because the display is usually located between the L & R speakers, the CC needs to go above or below the display, and not in-line with the L & R, (unless you use an Acoustically Transparent screen with a projector, in which case the CC can be placed behind the screen.)

Nonetheless, horizontal speakers are compromised designs. They exhibit lobing and comb filtering in the horizontal plane, so seats off-axis of center will get compromised sound.

If you can accommodate a 3rd, identical speaker for the center channel, that will provide the best front soundstage possible. Anything else is a compromise. Do what you need to do, but be aware of the compromises.

Craig

Basically, that's the ideal, but there may be exceptions based on a variety of factors. For example, if a person can afford a larger center speaker but only smaller speakers for the other channels, is not particularly into stereo music (only movies), and has a medium-to-large room, then it is usually advantageous to have a larger, more capable center speaker, even though it doesn't match the theoretically ideal configuration 100% (should be timbre-matched, but the ideal is 100% identical speakers). This is because the center channel typically carries the heaviest burden in movie soundtracks, including the vast majority of the dialogue, which at times needs to come through clearly during loud scenes.

Now, if a person can afford and accommodate three identical speakers across the front (especially if they can be oriented vertically)--all of which are capable of carrying the burden of the center channel individually--then I would definitely recommend the ideal configuration, and have done so on numerous occasions. I even use such a system myself, pointedly--my left, center, and right speakers are all vertically-oriented for the best horizontal dispersion (for viewers seated off-center), and they're even mounted at the exact same height (right above the TV).


What is optimal for a specific system isn't necessarily the same as what is ideal.

In your case, with you directing us to spend as little of your money as possible (nothing wrong with this), I wanted to devote as much as I could on the center speaker in order to make dialogue as clear and intelligible as possible for you. I also recommended a timbre-matched system, but wasn't sure how important this may be to you. A timbre-matched system would indeed have a more "cohesive" soundstage (i.e. able to "image" or place sounds in a realistic manner without calling attention to the individual speakers), and make for a better overall presentation, but in your case you'd either have to pay more for better left & right front speakers to match the center (being better also improves the system, of course) or buy less expensive, lower-end speakers for the front, including the center, which would compromise dialogue reproduction quality.


That's right, I have to use (not that I wouldn't want to anyway) a vertically-oriented center speaker because the seats in my HT room are up to 45 degrees off-axis. The sound quality at this extreme angle is still somewhat compromised, but far less than that of even the best horizontal two-way MTM centers at a mere 10-15 degrees off-axis. For those in my situation, I'd sooner compromise on size and output than off-axis performance, but for others who have a narrower seating area (most are no more than 15 degrees off-axis on either side), I may still recommend a larger timbre-matched MTM center. I'm afraid that not many home theaters in the real world, at present, are without compromises regarding speaker configuration.


Exactly. The choice in this case is between several different compromises--compromise on the quality of the center, compromise by not having a timbre-matched set, or compromise on the budget to get nicer speakers all across the front for a timber-matched set.

Oops, I should have refreshed the thread after coming back from lunch.


Tilting it upward toward the viewers' ear level would be a prudent measure, just in case it would help, although it is probably unnecessary. I'd still recommend it--couldn't hurt. Don't tilt it any higher than that, though.


You can use the System Advisor (yes, that's actually a valid spelling ) to calculate the price with the system discount:

http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages...isor.mv#bottom

By the way, if you can accommodate a vertical center, then you might want to request that the manufacturer's logo be placed on the grille accordingly; otherwise, the assumption is that it will be oriented horizontally (the speakers will be identical in every other way). Or you could have them leave it off entirely. Or you could take the grilles off. This doesn't really matter--I just thought I'd point this out.

One thing to consider is that if it is only you and perhaps one other person listening, and if you can arrange to sit in the middle of two front speakers, you don't really need a center channel speaker(you simply set your receiver/processor center speaker option to "none" in the setup menu).

My wife and I both have some high frequency hearing loss, and we find that dialog is more intelligible using just the front L/R speakers and sitting in the middle. And I have tried 4 or 5 center channel speakers, and in every case, dialog was not as understandable when using a center channel speaker. I think the benefit may be at least partly to the fact that when using the front L/R speakers, the dialog is coming at your ears partly from the sides, and as such has a more direct pathway into the ear canals.

Also, as others have mentioned, dialog clarity may be best when using a stand mounted monitor speaker since most tower speakers in your price range are not the best at limiting "boxiness" or what some refer to as "chestiness" in the vocal range.

You might want to use your available funds to pick up the best set of stand-mounted monitor speakers you can get. You can always later try out a center channel speaker and decide for yourself if it helps you with dialog.

This certainly is interesting and unexpected. All I can say is that with my normal (I presume) hearing, dialogue generally sounds more natural and intelligible from a single speaker, even with speakers that image very well like mine. Unless I lock my head in a vise, there will always be subtle phase shifts that I can pick up on--this is true of any speaker (that doesn't change its position relative to your ears ).

If it's possibly generally different for those who have some forms of hearing impairment, then we might want to do some experimentation before making any decisions.


You could also get a higher-quality speaker for the money, in terms of midrange performance (usually).


taolit, if you have a pair of speakers and a stereo to play them with, then you could run experiments to find out which configuration works better for you with respect to dialogue intelligibility--hook them up as a left & right pair, listen to some movie dialogue, then disconnect one of them and move the other to the center position (or move yourself--whatever works ) in order to compare. If you don't have the equipment, then order the receiver first, and ask Ascend Acoustics what they can do for you--I don't speak for them, but they may be willing to send you a pair to try out and then give you the system discount on the center later, should you decide to buy one (doesn't hurt to ask).

Do the test - however I do not see how you can lose, with having
a center channel. A good center channel, will produce good dialog.
Besides, Ascend has a 30 day return policy.