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First build: Dayton 15" HO and iNuke3000DSP

post #1 of 55
6/1/12 at 1:33pm
Thread Starter 
I originally started a thread over at HTS for this and a huge thanks goes out to Mike for helping me get started!

I'm moving the thread over here because there doesn't seem to be as much traffic over there and I still need some help/input.

My original plans included a 27"x21"x20" box, Dayton HO 15" and Datyon 240w plate amp. I plugged the amp in and found that it was dead, so I've decided to go with the iNuke3000 DSP instead.

When Mike first modeled this design for me he showed that a tuning of 22hz would require two 4" round ports each being 26" long, but this was with the 240w amp. My biggest question is, what is this going to look like with the iNuke hooked up to it instead of the Dayton plate amp?

Behringer rates the iNuke has having ~660watts RMS on a 4ohm load in stereo mode.

I just want to make sure that I don't need to change the box/ports since I'm adding the extra power.

Thanks in advance!
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post #2 of 55
6/1/12 at 3:39pm
"what is this going to look like with the iNuke hooked up to it instead of the Dayton plate amp?"

the box tuning, driver, ports, etc. all remain exactly the same and the sound will be the same, except louder.

the plate amp probably had a high pass filter in it for driver protection, and you will need to put one on with the dsp. use at least a 2nd order high pass butterworth filter at the tuning frquency.
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post #3 of 55
6/1/12 at 5:17pm
With your box being 27" and your ports being 26", you might have some issues with only giving .25" clearance for the ports inside the box. Are you able to modify anything, or is it to late?
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post #4 of 55
6/1/12 at 7:32pm
You could probably get by with a 1000dsp for that sub. However, i would still go with the 3000, since its not really that much more. I love the one that i have for my lms 12".

As for the modeling, just run winisd and see what it projects.
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post #5 of 55
6/2/12 at 7:25am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"what is this going to look like with the iNuke hooked up to it instead of the Dayton plate amp?"

the box tuning, driver, ports, etc. all remain exactly the same and the sound will be the same, except louder.

the plate amp probably had a high pass filter in it for driver protection, and you will need to put one on with the dsp. use at least a 2nd order high pass butterworth filter at the tuning frquency.

Ok thanks. I didn't know if I needed to change the ports or box size since I was putting more power to it. Also, I think the iNukeDSP has the filters built into it, I just have to set them.... I think


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay1 View Post

With your box being 27" and your ports being 26", you might have some issues with only giving .25" clearance for the ports inside the box. Are you able to modify anything, or is it to late?

The ports will have a long 90 degree elbow on them.
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post #6 of 55
6/2/12 at 7:58am
Thread Starter 
I am a complete idiot when it comes to WinISD, so bare with me lol.



Does that look correct? 110dB @ 22hz with a Highpass Butterworth filter applyed at 20hz.
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post #7 of 55
6/4/12 at 6:29am
Thread Starter 
Almost finished the box over the weekend.

Got most of the box assembled on Saturday:


Finished assembly on Sunday:





Filled all the holes with wood filler. Put on 3 coats of primer and sanded:



I think it needs one more coat of primer and another sanding then I can start laying on the final coat of paint.
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post #8 of 55
6/4/12 at 7:31am
That looks fantastic man. This gives me hope as I slowly build up the nerves to start a build. What finish are you going to give it?

And what sort or EQ are you using? I'm a noob when it comes to that and don't know if I'll be able to afford any right away so I was wondering what your plans are.
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post #9 of 55
6/4/12 at 8:20am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLaw612 View Post

That looks fantastic man. This gives me hope as I slowly build up the nerves to start a build. What finish are you going to give it?

And what sort or EQ are you using? I'm a noob when it comes to that and don't know if I'll be able to afford any right away so I was wondering what your plans are.


Thanks!

I'm not 100% sure on the finish yet, but I did buy a big thing of Valspar Satin black at Lowes, though I'm not 100% sold on it yet. I think I may like something with a hammer-tone finish to it.

As for EQ, I'm going to use the built-in DSP of the iNuke. I'm a complete noob when it comes to audio in general so I'm hoping the builtin DSP offers everything I need.
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post #10 of 55
6/4/12 at 10:31am
looking quite nice there. :-)

the inuke dsp has everything that you will need and more.

the second or third order butterworth highpass at 20hz is the key filter, as that is what will protect your driver once you start hitting it with big power and low frequencies. third will offer a little more protection.
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post #11 of 55
6/6/12 at 8:54am
Thread Starter 
Thanks!

I don't think I did to bad for my first build, even considering I've never built ANYTHING out of wood before. For the final paint job, I'm still trying to decide what I want to do. I originally planned to do an all Satin Black but now I'm not sure. I picked up a can of Rustoleum Dark Bronze hammer finish at Lowes the other day. I'm thinking about putting on a few coats of the black satin then doing a light coat of the dark bronze hammer finish. I might try this out on a few test pieces though.

Also, I went ahead and purchased the amp yesterday afternoon as well as a fan to do the fan swap mod. Also ordered Neutrik 2P Speakon connectors so that I can make my own cable so we will see how it goes.

I'm really excited to get hear this thing in action! I have high hopes for it, I've never actually heard a real sub before. Currently I'm using the Dayton HTP-3 5.1 setup, so this should be a serious upgrade from that biggrin.gif. Also, I'll be replacing all my speakers in the next few weeks with one of SVS systems. Can't wait!!!! lol
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post #12 of 55
6/7/12 at 6:03am
Thread Starter 
Added 1 more coat of primer then sanded.

Rolled on 2 coats of black satin, then sanded:
IMG_0763.jpg

IMG_0764.jpg

Then finally after 4 coats:
IMG_0765.jpg


It needs to be sanded again and probably at least 2 more coats. Not to bad considering I've never painted anything before lol.
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post #13 of 55
6/8/12 at 6:18am
Thread Starter 
Finally finished painting.

Sanded one more time then put on 3 more coats of the black satin.

1.jpg


2.jpg


Overall, I'm very happy with how it turned out, especially considering I've never built anything or painted anything in my life. The only two things left are to make the grill and put in the binding posts. This thing should come alive this weekend biggrin.gif
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post #14 of 55
6/8/12 at 7:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baleful View Post

Finally finished painting.
Sanded one more time then put on 3 more coats of the black satin.
Overall, I'm very happy with how it turned out, especially considering I've never built anything or painted anything in my life. The only two things left are to make the grill and put in the binding posts. This thing should come alive this weekend biggrin.gif

Box looks great, good job.

Regarding the extra power of the Behringer, things to consider are the increased port velocity (which can lead to chuffing if too high) and the increased cone excursion. You must make sure your HPF is adequate to prevent over-excursion of the driver near the tuning frequency.

WinISD Pro provides this information under the "Rear Port - Air Velocity" and "Cone excursion" graphs.
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post #15 of 55
6/8/12 at 8:18am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dboff01 View Post

Box looks great, good job.
Regarding the extra power of the Behringer, things to consider are the increased port velocity (which can lead to chuffing if too high) and the increased cone excursion. You must make sure your HPF is adequate to prevent over-excursion of the driver near the tuning frequency.
WinISD Pro provides this information under the "Rear Port - Air Velocity" and "Cone excursion" graphs.

I've got the graphs, but I have no idea what they mean.... Can someone help with this?

PortVelocity.png

ConeExcursion.png


Sorry for my complete noobness smile.gif
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post #16 of 55
6/8/12 at 8:28am
Are those graphs with the HPF in place or not? Hopefully not smile.gif First I thought the air velocity was way outside the limits of what's OK but then I realized that graph is in feet per second instead of meters per second. That should be OK - not ideal but OK. That said the cone excursion graph shows that you would be WAY over xmax below tuning with that much power. The red line on the graph is your driver's xmax, you don't want the white line to go over it or your driver goes "Clank!" biggrin.gif
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post #17 of 55
6/8/12 at 8:57am
Thread Starter 
Well crap....

If I'm doing this right in WinISD, it still shows that I'm over what I need to be frown.gif

CEHPF.png


So am I screwed now? Is this box not right/amp not right for the driver?
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post #18 of 55
6/8/12 at 9:13am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baleful View Post

Well crap....
If I'm doing this right in WinISD, it still shows that I'm over what I need to be frown.gif

So am I screwed now? Is this box not right/amp not right for the driver?

I don't have time to check your work right now but even if that's accurate you're not screwed. You'll just have to be more aggressive with the HPF if you want to make sure you're safe. You'll definitely be excursion limited with that amp though, it'll be important to keep that in mind.
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post #19 of 55
6/8/12 at 10:19am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baleful View Post

Well crap....
If I'm doing this right in WinISD, it still shows that I'm over what I need to be frown.gif

So am I screwed now? Is this box not right/amp not right for the driver?

Hit the drop-down for maximum power. It'll show you how much power you can apply across your frequency band. It looks like between 30 - 40hz, you won't be able to push to the max rms of your sub and the graph should show you by how much.
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post #20 of 55
6/8/12 at 10:40am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AVrebel View Post

Hit the drop-down for maximum power. It'll show you how much power you can apply across your frequency band. It looks like between 30 - 40hz, you won't be able to push to the max rms of your sub and the graph should show you by how much.


Ahhh ok, thanks for the explanation. All of this is new to me so I'm still learning.

Looks like my maximum power is around 400w. I think my iNuke should be delivered tonight, I'll just have to play around with the DSP settings and be sure not to get too trigger happy with the gain. Also, I really need to get the stuff to get REW up and going so that I can measure where I'm at.
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post #21 of 55
6/8/12 at 11:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baleful View Post

Ahhh ok, thanks for the explanation. All of this is new to me so I'm still learning.
Looks like my maximum power is around 400w. I think my iNuke should be delivered tonight, I'll just have to play around with the DSP settings and be sure not to get too trigger happy with the gain. Also, I really need to get the stuff to get REW up and going so that I can measure where I'm at.

From the looks of this link:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/class-d/213071-behringer-inuke-nu3000-measurements.html

you may be safer to run from a single channel of the amp. A spike in bridged mode might not be so good for your sub.
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post #22 of 55
6/8/12 at 12:55pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AVrebel View Post

From the looks of this link:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/class-d/213071-behringer-inuke-nu3000-measurements.html
you may be safer to run from a single channel of the amp. A spike in bridged mode might not be so good for your sub.

Oh yeah definitely, I was not going to run this in bridged mode. Sorry, I should have mentioned that earlier. I plan on getting another sub down the road which is why I went with the iNuke.
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post #23 of 55
6/8/12 at 2:38pm
xmax is the 10% distortion point, not the point where your driver gets killed. that is called xlim or xmech.

pro drivers have a ton of room after xmax before xlim. common values might be 8mm and 25mm.

i'm not sure about the ho driver, but xlim is definitely greater than xmax. with xmax around 12mm, xlim is probably up around 20mm, but that is just a guess.
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post #24 of 55
6/8/12 at 3:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

xmax is the 10% distortion point, not the point where your driver gets killed. .

Careful making such definitive statements LTD, I'm pretty sure you know better than that. There is no single standard method for measuring Xmax. It can be measured several ways, one of which is the 10% distortion point...even then, what frequency are we measuring the distortion at? Above 50Hz, the 10% distortion point is likely somewhere beyond Xlim. Most commonly, it's either spec'd from (gap_height - coil_height / 2) or the point where Bl drops by 10% from the rest position. I've never seen it stated, but I'd be inclined to believe the RSS series are 10% Bl spec'd.

And yes, your guesstimate of 20mm is pretty close. The designer of the RSS for P-E, at least back when they were introduced, put their Xlim at 21-22mm.

-Brent
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post #25 of 55
6/8/12 at 5:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by riverwolf View Post

Careful making such definitive statements LTD, I'm pretty sure you know better than that. There is no single standard method for measuring Xmax. It can be measured several ways, one of which is the 10% distortion point...even then, what frequency are we measuring the distortion at? Above 50Hz, the 10% distortion point is likely somewhere beyond Xlim. Most commonly, it's either spec'd from (gap_height - coil_height / 2) or the point where Bl drops by 10% from the rest position. I've never seen it stated, but I'd be inclined to believe the RSS series are 10% Bl spec'd.
And yes, your guesstimate of 20mm is pretty close. The designer of the RSS for P-E, at least back when they were introduced, put their Xlim at 21-22mm.
-Brent

I like the 10% BL method for xmax. Technically, one can run a bit outside of the magnetic field, but your speaker isn't really utilizing all of the power applied at that point, and when the magnetic field reverses the effect will be weaker to control the speaker. You're depending more on the suspension to bring things back in line and also the air spring in sealed designs if you choose to go over xmax. As long as the speaker is designed reasonably well, people won't hit Xlim following the base guidelines.
Edited by AVrebel - 6/8/12 at 7:02pm
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post #26 of 55
6/8/12 at 5:51pm
yeah, i wasn't trying to give a full explanation of driver limits. just wanted to let him know that xmax doesn't mean the damage point. heck some drivers don't even make it to their spec'd xmax.

for an overhung driver, broadly speaking, the various methods give pretty similar results whether one uses the 10% thd point, -10%bl, (hc-hg)/2+1/4hg.

av, it is BL (B is the magnetic field, L is the length of the coil in the field).
Edited by LTD02 - 6/8/12 at 6:00pm
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post #27 of 55
6/8/12 at 7:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

yeah, i wasn't trying to give a full explanation of driver limits. just wanted to let him know that xmax doesn't mean the damage point. heck some drivers don't even make it to their spec'd xmax.
for an overhung driver, broadly speaking, the various methods give pretty similar results whether one uses the 10% thd point, -10%bl, (hc-hg)/2+1/4hg.
av, it is BL (B is the magnetic field, L is the length of the coil in the field).

Thanks

I fixed it....... "BI" looks the same as "Bl" in the editor.
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post #28 of 55
6/8/12 at 7:48pm
Thread Starter 
Ok so I got everything hooked up. I haven't really changed to many options inside the iNuke software as I'm not really sure what I need to be messing with. But here's the settings I have so, please comment if you see something I should be doing differently.

Config.png

DEQ.png

FC.png

PEQ.png


The iNuke software is pretty slick though, I'm really liking it so far. I can't really crank it up to test settings right now as the kids are asleep smile.gif

I did set the gain on the Filter/Crossover tab to 6 and then turned up the gain nob for a second, it sound pretty damn good, then my wife yelled at me from the other end of the house biggrin.gif
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post #29 of 55
6/8/12 at 8:21pm
Thread Starter 
I think I may need an Art Clean Box Pro. Just sitting here watching The Chronicles of Riddic, non-Bluray (AMCHD) and I've got the volume on my receiver turned up to -24 which is where we usually have it when watching TV and I'm not even seeing the first blip on the Input Level indicator in the iNuke software. Reciever is a Pioneer VSX 1120k. My LFE settings were turned waaay down before. Right now I've got LFE set to 0 (high as it will go) and the SW gain set to 0 on the receiver (goes from -15 through +15).
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post #30 of 55
6/8/12 at 8:31pm
Thread Starter 
Ok, think I'm making some progress now. After changing what Behringer had set as the defaults for the PEQ, I'm getting some better output, but it definitely needs to be tweaked some more.

Also, I'm sure those settings I put in the PEQ are probably way to hot, I really need to get the stuff to get REW going so that I can actually see what levels I need increased/decreased.

PEQ1.png
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