KnoxVegas "Bang for the Buck" Theater

 

 

 

I have a Home Theater project that is "evolving". We moved into a house 7 years ago and my wife "graciously" let me have the "Bonus Room" above the garage for my Man Cave... temporarily. We were unsure how long we would be in the house and how many kids we waned to have.

Now that we plan on being here for another 5 or so years and we are not having anymore kids. I can take the room to another level... within reason.

I fell in love with "Surround Sound" and the concept of Home Theater about 15 years ago while in college. Through the years I have been buying, selling, trading and upgrading my equipment. I have built a simple setup in a "Bonus Room" above the garage in our current house (the house has no basement

The situations I could use some help with are:
1. $$$ Keep it within a manageable limit

2. Soundproofing - the room is on one end of the house, upstairs above the garage, attic above. The concern is the common wall attached to the second floor and to the rest of the upstairs... where the bedrooms are. THE CATCH the common wall cannot be knocked down to construct a detached wall (which would be the BEST solution) There is a bathroom on the other side that just got a facelift, wife would KILL me if I messed with it!

3. Acoustic treatments - make is sound good, kill the brightness of the drywall.

4. Control the reflection from the projector screen on the walls and ceiling.

I will and can post ANY photos that would help with the understanding of the project. I started messing with Google SketchUp (FREE) to design the room and post it for better understanding.

Any and I mean ANY suggestions that can be offered would be greatly appreciated.

Edited by Johnny14o - 11/19/12 at 7:37am

Current equipment (not REALLY subject to change)



Front L&R (double stack) JBL L820 (Total 4) (same channel different amp)

Center JBL LC2

Surround L&R JBL L820 & JAMO C400SUR (On same channel)

Rear Surround JBL S38II (Pair)

Sub JBL S120II



Projector: Sanyo PLV-Z3000

Screen: 106" Elite (NON Acoustically Transparent)



Reviever: Onkyo TX-SR805

Amp: Onkyo M-282



Google SketchUp of current setup is below:

Fortino HT current

http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehou...db885c135ec865



I did not draw in the 3 seat couch on the riser or the matching 2 seat loveseat that sits in front of the riser...

Edited by Johnny14o - 10/28/12 at 5:30pm

In nutshell I was figuring of constructing a false wall to cover/hide the speakers and mount the screen about 1-2" off the front of the false wall.

Adding my second JBL LC2 center to the mix and place them behind the screen. Reminder I do NOT have a AT screen at this time... MAYBE in the future and then I would like to go for a larger and curved screen. If I did the larger, curved AT screen, I am considering this in the construction of the false wall. (FEEDBACK on the good, bad, or ugly of this setup?)

Bass traps across the top of the screen and the top corners, and to the lower right corner.



Haven't quite settled on the design on how to cover up the subwoofer. I found a build from Chinadog where he had a similar design hurdle, and came up with a sweet solution that I am considering...



The Riser is slid back and the speakers in the side and surround adjusted accordingly.

I currently have acoustic panels (2' x 4') on the side walls to the left and right of the screen. They work, but I also have glare from the image reflecting off of the screen on the walls. Even though the walls are painted a deep brown and flat, distracting glare.

I was considering constructing wall panels from the false wall to the edges of the window (mirrored on the opposite wall) using the same outdoor (rubber backed) low-pile carpeting that I covered my riser. The carpet will be glued (I have extra GreenGlue) directly to thin plywood panels and then hung to the wall with elastomer washers between the panel and drywall.
The carpet "SHOULD" absorb quite a bit of sound and provide a similar acoustic deadening effect as well as absorb the ambient light from the screen.
Since this is not our final house, I have to be realistic about the modifications I make. If new owners did not want the room purposed for the same usage, these panels can be removed with a dozen or so screw holes to patch. The traditional wall carpet is expensive and not available locally, it also requires it to be glued DIRECTLY to the drywall and that would not make the wife happy.

The Google SketchUp is available:
http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehou...db885c135ec865

Like I said before. Common wall complete demolition, not an option. If it were, I would totally have at least a staggered 2"x4" stud wall on a 2"x6" top and bottom plate.

My thoughts are:

1. Demo the drywall on the Home Theater side (that I CAN do) and insulate with ROXUL Safe N' Sound (gonna use this for the Bass Traps too, got lots of it cheap) between the studs.

2. On the edges of the studs I got an elastomer based isolation tape. It just sticks on and you run it out across the studs and top and bottom plate.

3. 2 layers of drywall, staggered and with GreenGlue squished between them.

Like I said. I am limited as to exactly WHAT I can do, so I am trying to make the best of the situation.

I considered MLV in the project too. I'm not against it, but it is not locally available except for 1 place and they want a premium price for it. I can find it online, but the shipping cost is just as much as the materials, if not more.

PLEASE any input anyone can give, would I ever be grateful. I believe I am going to jump on this in about 3-4 weeks. Work will slow down a bit and I believe there is a weekend that my wife is going to visit her family (my outlaws). Perfect time to tear into the wall and get it back together. (OOPS forgot to mention, my wife has no idea I plan on tearing down an entire wall....)

Thanks for the feedback.
I have the extra center because my setup was a 6.1 awhile ago and it made a nice center rear. Since then I came across a pair of S38's, the 7.1 made a wider sound field and the S38's have more bass.

The reason I was considering the 2 center channel setup is that currently the center is below the screen and the second row has the sweet spot in the room, with the exception of the center channel dialogue.

I have played with a smaller JBL center (with the same drivers in it) mounted above the screen along with the LC2 below. I could hear a noticeable difference in the sound field being more spread out. They appeared to be sonically similar. No tone differences. On the surface it sounds better. I could tell that I could no longer tell that the sound was coming from below the screen, but admittedly it also did not appear to be coming FROM the screen.

I have heard of the "comb filtering" effect. I was listening for odd effects from the additional center channel. I could not hear anything strange, of course, I'm not really sure for WHAT I am listening.

I have been reading debates about what % loss by using a AT screen (not much, especially newer models), but people discussing what frequencies (usually higher ones) that are lost going through a Non-AT screen. I was wondering if using 2 centers would/could compensate for the frequency loss, or would I still loose the information and just end up with an over abundance of lower ones...

I have been looking at some, I and feel that if I am going to make the plunge into another screen, I would REALLY like to go a tad bigger and a curved version. Now I have just priced myself out of that option. I am just trying to make what I have currently work, until I can make another upgrade...

I also have added some info about the soundproofing plans. I agree, I am quite limited with choices/options due to the wall restrictions. Just wanted to get some advice on what works and what's a waste. MLV? Fiberglass insulation vs Rockwool type, GreenGlue, etc...

Thanks for your input!

Thanks for the input LeBon and dwightp.

After reading your suggestions and input I started doing some research on "stuff"

Nice article on the "comb filtering" principle and even how some of the "best" speakers can have a design flaw, just from the default driver orientation. I learned a lot and understand better the "canceling" effect. Find it interesting that it happens on a horizontal plane, but I guess that is due to the fact that our ears are horizontally mounted too.

http://www.audioholics.com/education...peaker-designs

One thing I learned is that, in many cases, turning your center channel "sideways" is the best position due to the linear orientation horizontally of the drivers. Sounds like a neat idea, however reading into it more, speakers with horn drivers suffer on the high end. Unfortunately the JBL LC2 has a "modified" ultra tweeter and the mid-tweeter has the EOS waveguide surround which is designed to disperse sound on a horizontal plane more evenly. Turning my Center sideways... bad idea...



Don't really have the space from the top of the screen to the ceiling to accommodate the center channel. If I drop the screen down anymore, the viewing angle will be off (I experimented upon initial hanging of the screen... LOTS of holes in the wall!)

Sooooooo.....
I have been looking @ screen options now. Don't really have the $$$ to make a big plunge into a screen, but looking at options. REALLY wanted a curved screen, but maybe in the short run I can use my 110" frame and upgrade the screen material until a large bag of money falls off a truck and onto my lawn...lol.

Anyone have a suggestion for a DIY or replacement AT screen?

Question about the anamorphic lenses... If I decide to change out my screen (which it looks like the STRONG possibility that I will) and decide to go from my 16:9 to a 2.35:1 ratio, would having the curved screen not be a bonus? If I am going wider, would the curved screen not help with trying to avoid the pincushion effect to the outside Left and Right sides of the picture?

Thanks for the info Steve.

Make sure I am following along with the feedback. If I used a curved screen with my current projector (non anamorphic lenses) the image stretching on the outside edges would actually be "compressed" because the factory lenses are designed to produce a FLAT image?

Also, checked out your build. Nice! Lucky dog, having the basement... Next house. No basement... no deal!

Have a question for you. Did you do anything "extra" for soundproofing? I saw the insulation in the walls and ceiling, and I see people installing RC channels, or "floating walls" to accomplish this. What, if anything, did you use?
I'm just asking because of my tight situation where I need to try to accomplish the max soundproofing in a standard 2"x4" common wall. What are your feelings on MLV? Worth it, or a waste?

Thanks again!

AWESOME, Bud. Would LOVE to hook up with you to get your input before I head down the "happy hammer" trail and start constructing something on "theory" instead of FACT.

With that being said, I've made progress in the realm of research and logistics.

I cannot thank the folks who contributed with feedback. You really set me in the right direction!


I ordered 25 IB-3 Brackets (A.K.A. IB-COOL) from the Soundproofing Company.

http://www.soundproofingcompany.com/soundproofing-products/soundproofing-clips/ib-3-clip/
I got a good deal too. I believe the only charged me double for the "noob" questions! LOL!

GREAT folks to work with, VEY helpful and paitent...

John Hile
Soundproofing Company, Inc.
800-397-8791 x-202
612-284-4066
john@soundproofingcompany.com
www.soundproofingcompany.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/johnhile

I have decided to go with auxiliary studs 24" o.c. and 3 IB-3's per stud (1x on top 2x on bottom) with 1/4" gap off the floor.


The Drywall will be pushed out 1/2" from the original wall. I talked to some sound guys ant they detailed the picture below of 1/2" - 1 1/2" because air can send "shockwaves" into the studs even if they are decoupled.

Solution to get it down to 1/4-1/2" is 2x:
1. Drill holes along the top plate into the attic space (like speaker ports) to give the "pushed" air some place to go when the wall is hit with sound.
2. I have 1/8" visco-elastic stud tape to be run down the face of the support studs. Again as air "shockwaves" are generated there is a non-energy transmitting surface present.

Sounds plausible to me..... NEXT WEEK ON:

Brackets will be here end of next week, get some Drywall and insulation from Lowe's next Friday. Saturday..... let the demolition egin!
Edited by Johnny14o - 10/28/12 at 5:31pm

The time has come...


I have in some of my "unique" items...

Take a trip from where this room has been... JBL S310II and and S-Center. Sanyo PLV-Z5 projector (720p)



But I REALLY loved the way these looked...


So, I MUST HAVE!!!


Tweak a few things.. move equipment to the back of the room in a closet and make some sound control panels...


New projector (Sanyo PLV-Z3000), JBL S-38II for the rear surround.... The room also doubles as my office...


hmmmm.. need a better place to sit...


Carpeted. homemade illuminated step edging. I used Waterproof Yellow LED strip lighting on a dimmer and an on/off switch. Also added LED Step lighting on single step. Harmony 1100 remote with RF to control equipment in the closet.


And for the most part, how it has been for a while...

Started taking down speakers and sound panels. Patching holes, getting stuff out of the room and sticking it EVERYWHERE in the house....


Even decided to take the cabinets out of the back and re-configure a built in desk in-between the Left and Right Cabinets. I still have to take them completely out, but you can see where I am going with this...


Ok... most of the equipment out of the way. Sound panels out, Projector (*sniff*) down...


Let the FUN begin...


A TOTAL of 20 minutes and TA-DA!


Closing shop for the day.... Do you like my DIY light up signage?

I don't pretend to have any answers. In fact, for every 1 question I get answered, I find I have 3 more! LOL!

Seriously, I got bitten with the bug in college when a buddy of mine got a Dolby Pro Logic HTIB and we hooked it up to a 25" CRT TV and watched a movie that we all must have see 100 times. I was blown away on how the depth of sound can bring a movie to life, even one on a crappy 25" Magnovox TV! LOL!

My thread is focused on a "Bang for the Buck" concept and do the room in such a way that:
1. Soundproofing - all the bedrooms are upstairs. And although the room is at the end of the hallway, you can still wake someone up. (Phaser blasts in the JJ Abrams Star Trek woke my wife up and I got a butt chewing.... )
2. if we sell it, and the new owners do not want a Home Theater, then everything can be taken out and everything "goes back to normal" with minimal effort.

3. And at the same time creating as much of a movie experience as possible with all these other factors.

My next house WILL have a basement (even if I have to dig it myself) to go "bonkers" with!

Please ask questions, we'll learn together. Please ask questions, you may point out something that I had not considered and save me A LOT of agony!

Ok... Work CRAZY, Me.... LAZY....BUT I'm moving forward again

I have supplies prepped:



I have carpeting ordered and hardwood for our hallway. Figured if I was doing some, do more. Thanks to aaustin for the feedback on his carpeting selection. I went with the same carpet/different color (Orchard Vase)





Wall has been framed up with IB-3 clips and used some MLV on the backside of a shower/tub surround. Figured is was not a bad idea since there was no drywall and the potential to resonate on and under the PVC void:



On thing I can say... building a whole NEW wall and laying out the studs HAS to be a lot easier than retrofitting and working around preexisting studs, receptacles, etc... It took my dad and I 2.5 hours to get the layout set (it really only should have taken 30 minutes to install these, but he and I argued about it and drank beer over it too much...)



With the additional 1/4" surrounding the doorways, I had to get creative to build it up for drywall and trim. The trick is to still maintain as much of the "decoupling" from the IB-3 clips as possible. I utilized some viscoelastic foam tape and a thin lattice strips to accomplish this:





Speaker wire and cctv wire being run in the walls:

Getting ready for Drywall, I figured it would not hurt to help any penetration I had via speaker wire and/or any other cables.

I got some wall plates and cut some MLV and a bit of contact cement to make a sort of "gasket" for wires to come through... I have NO clue if it will work, but HEY... I tried....

Dual purpose exhaust fan...

When the room is completed, the door to the room will be "airtight". Gaskets on 3 sides of the door an automatic, drop-down door sweep onto a hardwood transition.

Although the room has 2 ceiling HVAC registers, with people in the room and equipment running, the room can get a bit warm and stale in this situation.

I am installing a fireplace booster fan (from eBay) in the equipment closet. The fan will move 160 CFM. I figure that this is approx the airflow of the 2 ceiling registers TOGETHER (I said Approx... I have not, and have no intention to measure the actual airflow). The door to the closet will have two (2) 4x10" wall registers (one high, one low) to allow airflow from the Theater, through the equipment closet and into the laundry room which adjoins the Theater. I went with this fan for a few reasons. 1) Size low profile to be above door that opens into the closet. 2) Quite, it is VERY quiet. 3) 160 CFM.. there are not a lot of fans with that much air flow to start with, much less meeting the #1 and #2 requirements...

HOPEFULLY, even when the heat/AC is not blowing, this setup will have enough guts to pull air through the ducts into the Theater. Guess we'll see



Fitting a 12" fan into a 10" duct...





Few tweaks (and A LOT of metal duct tape)...





Time to fit into the wall...


I used a couple of strips of the visoelastic tape I am using around the doors as a compression gasket and vibration reduction (see thin strip of green tape on bottom of 3rd pic...)


The power will be supplied from a wall plug with a conditioned relay to my Onkyo receiver. When the receiver turns on, the blower turns on, and the conditioned relay keeps any buzz / hum from the blower being heard in the speakers....

CCTV wire.......Check
Speaker wire.......Check




Had to remount the receptacles and wall switches from a "New Work" box to "Old Work" boxes so they can be mounted onto the new drywall and not be connected to a stud (detached or not)...

Had a few minutes tonight to get some stuff done in a hurry...


Ripped up the carpet strip along the wall. Everything is moving out approx 1" and the strip would be in the wrong place.


Busted open my "discount" rockwoll / mineralwool packs of insulation... Interesting stuff. WAY denser than I expected and definitely denser than the fiberglass stuff. The price is right... FREE. There was debate if it is worth the extra cost, maybe not. But if price was a wash between it or fiberglass, I would go for the "WOOL".


I have just the right amount of the rockwool left
to do my bass traps up front...Sweeeeet.

Looks like tomorrow I'm-a-gitten-me-some-Drywall...Yeee-haaa!
Edited by Johnny14o - 8/27/12 at 7:08pm

Ahhhh..."progress". Local home improvement suppliers no longer carry the original "heavy" 1/2" drywall.
Everything is the lightweight versions.I went ahead and got it since I had help with me to load it, and did not have time to go across town to get the heavy stuff, and they were closed on top of that....nutz!

Never the less.... drywall purchased and began cutting. I decided to apply the visco tape to each of the detached studs. If I had to use the lightweight drywall, maybe an extra layer of this dampening stuff will help makeup for the difference in sound transmission . (trade dense for gooey)?

Pano shot from phone...



The code inspectors checking everything out prior to drywall going up..... ( "MEOW", I guess that means it passed... )



1st layer, attached vertically, all done with only a couple of hiccups.... (ran out of beer...)
.

Thats where I had to stop for the day. Getting ready to apply acoustical sealant and 2nd layer with QuietGlue Pro, but the stupid (and brand new) caulk gun was defective and would not pump.... Bummer, cause we were on a roll.

Getting new gun today and will get the second layer up tonight!
Edited by Johnny14o - 8/31/12 at 5:49am

Got new caulk gun... moving along...





Finished applying Acoustical Sealant around the perimeter of the 1st layer of drywall...





Began applying QuietGlue Pro... had a couple of air bubbles in the tube which allowed some of the carrier separate.... no big deal. Sopped it up with a papertowel




First couple of sections on...I decided to bevel the vertical butt ends of the horizontally mounted drywall. This way I can work the Elastopatch and joint tape a bit easier...




All sections up... and Elastopatch applied. Horizontal, joints taped. Vertical joints that I beveled, filled with elastopatch with a "slight" dip left into it for tape and a second layer of compound.

Whoo-Hoo. Hardwood for the hallway. Carpet and hardwood installation on Wednesday!



The ElastoPatch is GREAT in the DEEP joints. But it cannot be sanded. Switching "stuff" to finish off the job.


Next layer of Joint Compound (still wet)...


Shot of 1st coat of BLACK paint on ceiling...



I got 2 words for it.... HOT MESS.... Next time I get a "Wild Hair" someone PLEASE stop me!



Extra thickness of drywall forced me to build my own custom door frame.. It is hard to tell, but in the second picture, the horizontal wood is pine, the vertical is oak. The oak is supporting the hinges and the new door will be CONSIDERABLY heavier than the original.



OK, no pics (YET) Just got done with sanding the 3rd coat and touching up a couple random air bubbles in the joint compound. Applied second coat of black paint to the ceiling (need daylight to see if a 3rd will be needed, probably YES)

Tomorrow, getting "Mark Twain" color primer for new wall and get standard paint re-shaken. Pick up one final tube of acoustical sealant.
Painting Walls and maybe ceiling. Applying sealant and installing new door frame. Packing up tools and moving Couch, Loveseat and riser!

RUSH, RUSH, RUSH!!! Installers will be here on Wednesday morning to do carpet and hardwood. Need to get as much painting done before they show up!