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DIY LCR - Econowave, PI, or SEOS?

post #1 of 40
6/3/12 at 6:09pm
Thread Starter 
Greetings,

I am looking to build a LCR set of horn-based speakers. They are replacing an aged paradigm titan setup.

My eyes are crossed from reading all the econowave threads here and in other forums [I thought the DIY Theater Construction threads were bad ], and I could use some advice.

Given my "newbiness", I'm leaning toward a kit like Parham's PIs, but at the same time the econowaves look pretty straightforward.

So, here are my questions:

Is a PI kit worth the upgrade over an Econowave standard? I've seen Parham make a comment that some of the driver choices are like choosing between a Porsche and Ferrari (they both get you over 200 MPH). Is this the same thing between a 3 PI and an Econowave Standard? I estimate the cost of the Econowave standard (not including cabinet) at around $160 each versus $320 for the 3 PI. I realize that a large amount of the difference is due to the upgraded drivers, but is it a huge difference in sound quality to justify a 2x in cost? Said another way, I'm suspecting that there will be a huge leap in sq from my Paradigms to the econowaves, but maybe not as great between the e-waves and the PI's.

Are there Econowave "plans"? I've been through as much of the 968 pages of Zilch's AK threads as I can (as well as on PE, DIYaudio, here, etc.), but I haven't really seen any cabinet plans. I'm not planning on using the PE traps, so I realize I will have to design them myself. Got it that I need to use something like WinISD to optimize the box, but I also know that the front baffle is critical. Is there a plan for that?

SEOS Kits? I've sent Erich a pm, but are there details on potential SEOS kits? Sorry if I missed the details in the threads, but I hear mention of flats, driver, and kits, but nothing definitive. Given Erich is getting great deals on the material and even CNC flats, is this getting into the econowave standard zone on pricing?

Thank you for bearing with me on newbie questions.
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post #2 of 40
6/3/12 at 7:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Java View Post

Greetings,

I am looking to build a LCR set of horn-based speakers. They are replacing an aged paradigm titan setup.

My eyes are crossed from reading all the econowave threads here and in other forums [I thought the DIY Theater Construction threads were bad ], and I could use some advice.

Given my "newbiness", I'm leaning toward a kit like Parham's PIs, but at the same time the econowaves look pretty straightforward.

So, here are my questions:

Is a PI kit worth the upgrade over an Econowave standard? I've seen Parham make a comment that some of the driver choices are like choosing between a Porsche and Ferrari (they both get you over 200 MPH). Is this the same thing between a 3 PI and an Econowave Standard? I estimate the cost of the Econowave standard (not including cabinet) at around $160 each versus $320 for the 3 PI. I realize that a large amount of the difference is due to the upgraded drivers, but is it a huge difference in sound quality to justify a 2x in cost? Said another way, I'm suspecting that there will be a huge leap in sq from my Paradigms to the econowaves, but maybe not as great between the e-waves and the PI's.

Are there Econowave "plans"? I've been through as much of the 968 pages of Zilch's AK threads as I can (as well as on PE, DIYaudio, here, etc.), but I haven't really seen any cabinet plans. I'm not planning on using the PE traps, so I realize I will have to design them myself. Got it that I need to use something like WinISD to optimize the box, but I also know that the front baffle is critical. Is there a plan for that?

SEOS Kits? I've sent Erich a pm, but are there details on potential SEOS kits? Sorry if I missed the details in the threads, but I hear mention of flats, driver, and kits, but nothing definitive. Given Erich is getting great deals on the material and even CNC flats, is this getting into the econowave standard zone on pricing?

Thank you for bearing with me on newbie questions.

The Pi kits are the most established at this point. You can buy everything from Wayne including PCBs and even assembled crossovers.

The original Econowave was sort of a generic crossover that worked with a cheap JBL horn and vintage woofers. Zilch added many designs for different horns and woofers. Google Econowave Deluxe.

The SEOS waveguide, IMO is superior to the horn used in the Pi speakers but is still in its relative infancy. There are a few designs out there done by Bwaslo on this forum. The cost will be somewhere between a fully upgraded Pi4 and the Ewaves.

The route you take will depend on what you need and your budget. If you want a very complete kit, go with the Pi4. If you want a lower budget setup, try an Ewave or Ewave Deluxe variant.

If you aren't in a hurry, have a slightly higher budget and don't need the bundled kit like the Pi setups I'd suggest going with the SEOS-12 and Eminence Deltalite 2512 or Dayton Designer 12. Bwaslo has crossover designs for these.
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post #3 of 40
6/3/12 at 7:29pm
that is what i was going to suggest given the way that his post is written.

seos 12, de250 or clone, deltalite ii 2512 or designer 12 depending on how much sensitivity you want.

http://www.diysoundgroup.com/forum/i...f988&topic=9.0

http://www.diysoundgroup.com/forum/i...988&topic=10.0
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post #4 of 40
6/4/12 at 5:56am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

If you aren't in a hurry, have a slightly higher budget and don't need the bundled kit like the Pi setups I'd suggest going with the SEOS-12 and Eminence Deltalite 2512 or Dayton Designer 12. Bwaslo has crossover designs for these.

Thanks Coctostan. Funny, the SEOS-12 thread is what pulled me into this bottomless pit of DIY Waveguide. Full circle...

Looking at LTD02's suggestions, the cost will range from $270-345 each. Right in the sweat spot...

At the lowest point, for the LCR set they will be ~$150 cheaper than the PI3. Bwaslo's designs look pretty straightforward, but a full kit is looking nicer at that price difference.

Here's the key question. How much difference is there audibly between the designs. Is it huge or cutting hairs?

Trust me. I've guzzled the DYI Koolaide, so I have a long path of upgrades and tweaking. But as a start point, which is the best spot?
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post #5 of 40
6/4/12 at 6:01am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

that is what i was going to suggest given the way that his post is written.

seos 12, de250 or clone, deltalite ii 2512 or designer 12 depending on how much sensitivity you want.

http://www.diysoundgroup.com/forum/i...f988&topic=9.0

http://www.diysoundgroup.com/forum/i...988&topic=10.0

Thanks, LTD02

Interesting that Bwaslo actually liked the cheaper set up with the designer 12.

Do you know what Erich's price point is on the DE250 clones? That could be a big deciding factor given the relative price of the DE250.

If the DE250 clone comes in at a nice price point, the Designer 12 setup could be a killer "entry level" set up.
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post #6 of 40
6/4/12 at 7:35am
not sure. my spidey sense tells me half or less, but that's just a guess.

"Interesting that Bwaslo actually liked the cheaper set up with the designer 12."

be careful not to put words in his mouth. he noted the different frequency response and some other things as possibly influencing his perception. also, it gives up about 5db sensitivity and a big part of the original concept was high sensitivity. just say'n...
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post #7 of 40
6/4/12 at 10:18am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

not sure. my spidey sense tells me half or less, but that's just a guess.

"Interesting that Bwaslo actually liked the cheaper set up with the designer 12."

be careful not to put words in his mouth. he noted the different frequency response and some other things as possibly influencing his perception. also, it gives up about 5db sensitivity and a big part of the original concept was high sensitivity. just say'n...

Well, I like your spider sense!!

On Bwaslo's comment, below is what he initial said. To your point, there are other factors to take into consideration. Anyway, thanks for the clarification. My interest in SEOS and Bwaslo's designs have been rekindled!!

Quote:


I have to say that this one so far sounds the best to me. That is probably because it has bass in the given configuration (sealed box, no sub playing). But it does have a nice richness to it even with stuff that doesn't have bass. It took a long time between changes, so it might be mind tricks. Or it might be the steeper slope on the crossover. Or it might be that it's not as sensitive and the amp gets worked harder. Who knows. Anyway, I like it a lot.
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post #8 of 40
6/4/12 at 10:41am
I don't want to let the cat out of the bag too early on upcoming speaker designs and kits. But I just recently talked to a well known speaker designer and he will be making a speaker using the SEOS-12 model as well as a couple other forum members from AVS and PE.

The only reason it's not done yet is because I wanted to send him the actual waveguide and the correct compression driver. It should be an impressive speaker.

Forum member Bwaslo also has some very nice designs he worked on a couple months ago that are ready to go right now.

There's a chance I will contact a company to get some crossover boards made up so assembling everything is easier. There will also be flat packs for each design as well.
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post #9 of 40
6/4/12 at 11:08am
AH Man..... all these designs coming out..... Anything with the TD12m?

I have the TD12M and Beyma CP380M that I have Rick Craig doing the crossover for me.
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post #10 of 40
6/4/12 at 3:11pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

I don't want to let the cat out of the bag too early on upcoming speaker designs and kits. But I just recently talked to a well known speaker designer and he will be making a speaker using the SEOS-12 model as well as a couple other forum members from AVS and PE.

The only reason it's not done yet is because I wanted to send him the actual waveguide and the correct compression driver. It should be an impressive speaker.

Forum member Bwaslo also has some very nice designs he worked on a couple months ago that are ready to go right now.

There's a chance I will contact a company to get some crossover boards made up so assembling everything is easier. There will also be flat packs for each design as well.

Excellent. Just what I wanted to hear.

Very interested, like I'm sure many here are. Thanks!!
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post #11 of 40
6/23/12 at 10:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

I don't want to let the cat out of the bag too early on upcoming speaker designs and kits. But I just recently talked to a well known speaker designer and he will be making a speaker using the SEOS-12 model as well as a couple other forum members from AVS and PE.


The only reason it's not done yet is because I wanted to send him the actual waveguide and the correct compression driver. It should be an impressive speaker.


Forum member Bwaslo also has some very nice designs he worked on a couple months ago that are ready to go right now.


There's a chance I will contact a company to get some crossover boards made up so assembling everything is easier. There will also be flat packs for each design as well.

This excites me. Hopefully the kits and flat packs will be shipping by winter, this would be a great project to keep me inside biggrin.gif
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post #12 of 40
6/23/12 at 10:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by scotthulbs View Post

This excites me. Hopefully the kits and flat packs will be shipping by winter, this would be a great project to keep me inside biggrin.gif


It will be well before winter unless it takes the designer longer than I think.
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post #13 of 40
6/24/12 at 3:20pm
I was really impressed with my E'Wave Deluxe's as LCR (official E'Waver #92!). They were my first DIY speaker and first time going full time with a horn. I haven't looked back and have been patiently waiting for a DIY surround horn speaker to compliment the front stage.

My eWave Deluxe Pictures

"Build" thread - LCR & Sub for $1500
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post #14 of 40
6/25/12 at 3:56pm
greg, your speakers look great!
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post #15 of 40
6/25/12 at 6:57pm
I understand OP is settled on BWaslo's design but I figured I should try to ride the coattails.


For me it is between 4pi and SEOS-12/2226H design that is yet to be unveiled.

I want to understand how much of a difference the SEOS waveguide makes. I've seen the polar plots, they look impressive, but does it translate into noticeable audible improvement over Wayne's?

Another option I am greatly intrigued by is Bill Fitzmaurice arrays, specifically TLAH, SLA and, to lesser extend, DR200. What do you think about those?
Edited by zheka - 6/25/12 at 9:08pm
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post #16 of 40
6/26/12 at 4:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by zheka View Post

I understand OP is settled on BWaslo's design but I figured I should try to ride the coattails.
For me it is between 4pi and SEOS-12/2226H design that is yet to be unveiled.
I want to understand how much of a difference the SEOS waveguide makes. I've seen the polar plots, they look impressive, but does it translate into noticeable audible improvement over Wayne's?

I would bet that you couldn't hear the difference in a real room (blind testing). Of course that assumes the TBD SEOS 12 crossover is as well designed as Wayne's 4pi which is going to take someone some time and effort.
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post #17 of 40
6/26/12 at 7:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mobeer4don View Post

I would bet that you couldn't hear the difference in a real room (blind testing). Of course that assumes the TBD SEOS 12 crossover is as well designed as Wayne's 4pi which is going to take someone some time and effort.

thank you for the reply. I suspected as much.

I guess, unless I find compelling reasons to chose sealed design, then 4Pi it is.

Some argue that ported mains may be difficult to integrate in multisub set up ala Geddes. Wayne disagrees .

what do you think?
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post #18 of 40
6/26/12 at 9:26am
What would the eD cinema speaker qualify as? I know I like my DR-200 stacked better than my upgraded eD speaker but both would satisfy. The eD speaker I had used a DE-250 CD and the 3012HO woofer.
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post #19 of 40
6/26/12 at 9:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by zheka View Post

Some argue that ported mains may be difficult to integrate in multisub set up ala Geddes. Wayne disagrees .
what do you think?

As Bill said, *may* be difficult:

"you'll have an easier time with sealed mains or if the port tuning is way below where you'll be highpassing the mains "

I'd think the biggest problems would occur if Fb was at or near the XO freq where phase shift is greatest and would muck with summation with the sub's output.
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post #20 of 40
6/26/12 at 10:02am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

What would the eD cinema speaker qualify as? I know I like my DR-200 stacked better than my upgraded eD speaker but both would satisfy. The eD speaker I had used a DE-250 CD and the 3012HO woofer.

If I am lucky and eD gets my set (de250, stock woofer) build and shipped on time I might be able to tell soon. But to be honest I do not really expect this to happen. Something wrong is happening with that company.

James, did you have a chance to listen to Bill's consumer grade line arrays?
Edited by zheka - 6/26/12 at 10:26am
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post #21 of 40
6/26/12 at 10:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

As Bill said, *may* be difficult:
"you'll have an easier time with sealed mains or if the port tuning is way below where you'll be highpassing the mains "
I'd think the biggest problems would occur if Fb was at or near the XO freq where phase shift is greatest and would muck with summation with the sub's output.

Thank you, noah.

I am planning to run the mains full range and LPF on the flanking subs fairly high at 100-120Hz . This approach works well for Wayne, hopefully it will work for me too.
Edited by zheka - 6/26/12 at 10:26am
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post #22 of 40
6/26/12 at 10:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by zheka View Post

If I am lucky and eD gets my set (de250, stock woofer) build and shipped on time I might be able to tell soon. But to be honest I do not really expect this to happen. Something wrong is happening with that company.
James, did you have a chance to listen to Bill's consumer grade line arrays?

I have not heard the line arrays. I have dual stacked DR's which acts as a line array but probably overkill for most. Still cheap to built though. I don't see you losing out which ever direction you chose, same goes for the OP.
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post #23 of 40
6/26/12 at 2:27pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by zheka View Post

I understand OP is settled on BWaslo's design but I figured I should try to ride the coattails.
For me it is between 4pi and SEOS-12/2226H design that is yet to be unveiled.
I want to understand how much of a difference the SEOS waveguide makes. I've seen the polar plots, they look impressive, but does it translate into noticeable audible improvement over Wayne's?
Another option I am greatly intrigued by is Bill Fitzmaurice arrays, specifically TLAH, SLA and, to lesser extend, DR200. What do you think about those?

Yes, Zheka. I should have wrapped up my decision in this thread.

I decided to go with the SEOS12. I started a build thread here: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1417294/seos12-2512-build#post_22162888

Tough decision. It really boiled down to money, quality, and flexibility.

  • Money. On the money side, I could buy a PI 3 basic kit for $320, and upgrade PI 3kit for $645or a SEOS12 "kit" for about $280. Based on drivers, the quality should between the PI 3 basic and upgrade, but cost less than the basic.
  • Quality. Very subjective, but many feel that the SEOS design is an evolution and hence better quality than the PI's waveguide. [Just my "buying opinion" here. Not meaning to start a flame war]
  • Flexibility. Beyond the mains (LCR), I want to replace my dipole sides and eventually add rears and fronts. I didn't get much input from Wayne on surround designs. He felt the PI 1 or 2 should work, but I'm really interested in waveguide for surrounds. I already have a "diffuse sound field" with the dipoles and don't like them. I'm interested in the directionality and wide dispersion of the SEOS.

Depending on where you are coming from (me from Paradigm base level), any of these paths will likely be a marked improvement. No doubt the SEOS designs are not as tested as the PI's. That's a risk, but I think it's mitigated by the volume of E-wave designs/learnings and the growing SEOS designers (BWaslo being a very diligent and supportive key designer).
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post #24 of 40
6/27/12 at 8:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Java View Post

Yes, Zheka. I should have wrapped up my decision in this thread.
I decided to go with the SEOS12. I started a build thread here: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1417294/seos12-2512-build#post_22162888
Tough decision. It really boiled down to money, quality, and flexibility.
  • Money. On the money side, I could buy a PI 3 basic kit for $320, and upgrade PI 3kit for $645or a SEOS12 "kit" for about $280. Based on drivers, the quality should between the PI 3 basic and upgrade, but cost less than the basic.
  • Quality. Very subjective, but many feel that the SEOS design is an evolution and hence better quality than the PI's waveguide. [Just my "buying opinion" here. Not meaning to start a flame war]
  • Flexibility. Beyond the mains (LCR), I want to replace my dipole sides and eventually add rears and fronts. I didn't get much input from Wayne on surround designs. He felt the PI 1 or 2 should work, but I'm really interested in waveguide for surrounds. I already have a "diffuse sound field" with the dipoles and don't like them. I'm interested in the directionality and wide dispersion of the SEOS.
Depending on where you are coming from (me from Paradigm base level), any of these paths will likely be a marked improvement. No doubt the SEOS designs are not as tested as the PI's. That's a risk, but I think it's mitigated by the volume of E-wave designs/learnings and the growing SEOS designers (BWaslo being a very diligent and supportive key designer).

Your choice makes a lot of sense especially for a 12" woofer design.
I just want to quickly comment on the "money" point. One does not have to buy complete kits from Wayne. If I end up going this route I would buy only the waveguide and crossover (you can save $30 by assembling it yourself) .
Strictly speaking the only thing that makes Pi more expensive choice is the waveguide which costs $20 more than SEOS-12.
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post #25 of 40
6/27/12 at 8:23am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by zheka View Post

Your choice makes a lot of sense especially for a 12" woofer design.
I just want to quickly comment on the "money" point. One does not have to buy complete kits from Wayne. If I end up going this route I would buy only the waveguide and crossover (you can save $30 by assembling it yourself) .
Strictly speaking the only thing that makes Pi more expensive choice is the waveguide which costs $20 more than SEOS-12.

Understood. I never went the route of just asking Wayne for the plans and compiling the parts. I'm assuming he needs to make a profit somewhere in the mix. Crossovers cost $125 assembled. Does he sell his XO plans?

I also weighed the driver costs. Given Erich's group buy, you can get better/cheaper drivers. The waveguide and CD are cheaper than Wayne's. Arguably you could use a DNA-360 instead of a DE250 and make a cheaper (better?) PI.

I don't want any of this to sound like I'm negative on the PI speakers. I came very close to pulling the trigger on them. Wayne has built a great product and has a strong following.
Edited by Java - 6/27/12 at 10:49am
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post #26 of 40
6/27/12 at 10:19am
yes, i would definitely use DNA-360 instead of DE250.

Crossover details are included with the plan which is free as long as for personal use.

I will follow your build with great interest. Good luck!
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post #27 of 40
6/28/12 at 8:44am
Do the denovo CD's sound as good/better than the various JBL compression drivers? I'm trying to decide what to use with my 2226's in a 2-way config.

Also, can we bi-amp rather than use a passive crossover? I have a Marchand XM9 and a RANE AC23 at my disposal.

If not, is the Pi crossover a good match for a 2226+dna-360?
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post #28 of 40
6/28/12 at 8:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse S View Post

Do the denovo CD's sound as good/better than the various JBL compression drivers? I'm trying to decide what to use with my 2226's in a 2-way config.
Also, can we bi-amp rather than use a passive crossover? I have a Marchand XM9 and a RANE AC23 at my disposal.
If not, is the Pi crossover a good match for a 2226+dna-360?

What are you using them for? Biamping is fine.
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post #29 of 40
6/28/12 at 9:39am
Mains for HT, maybe a 3rd for a center channel. Right now I have 8340's sitting on top of a single 2226 in a sealed ~20" box crossed at 200hz with the Rane.

If I did three 2226+denovo as LCR, then I could move the 8340's to the side and rear surrounds. Full JBL action with my IB!
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post #30 of 40
6/28/12 at 10:17am
I have heard 3 different CD's from JBL and the CD in the SHO-10(selenium) and DE-250. The selenium and DE-250 had better HF extension and energy but the JBL's in their horns were very big and powerful sounding. For music I would take the DE-250 and selenium but for movies it is much tougher. BTW, the CD in the 4722N sound the best to me compared to the 3622N CD and the 4675C CD. The JBL's are more expensive though and require a much bigger horn but that is where the big sound somes from.
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