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Kinetic River Cinema - Page 19

post #541 of 592
11/10/12 at 8:36am
I really like your lighting plan and it is similar to what I want to do but mine will not be as grand.

I have a question about zone 5.

"5. ZONE 5 - Perimeter Soffit - Rope lighting - If you get the 120v. incandescent version of this "fixture", you can dim automatically through the Grafik Eye. RGB LED versions are available, but would have to be controlled via a separate credit-card sized remote."

First, will you be be using a Grafik Eye since it is mentioned? Second, does this mean that the Grafik Eye can only control incandescent rope lights but not LED rope lights? I would prefer to use LED lights for everything if possible for power consumption and heat issues. I am thinking of going with Insteon switches.

Just trying to pick up some pointers from your lighting plan.

I have found some of this information online but the end users often discover that things are not as advertised.
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post #542 of 592
11/10/12 at 12:54pm
Thread Starter 
Thanks Jedi-

Yes, I will be using the Grafik Eye QS, 8 zone.

I'll ask Tim about the rope lighting, he was the one that really helped me put the lighting plan together. I did here somewhere that the GE had issues with LED's, not all but possibly the LED ropes. I will pass the question on and let you know what I find out in this thread!
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post #543 of 592
11/10/12 at 4:37pm
Have been using a GE QS lighting controller (QSGRJ-6P) for the last year with two zones controlling RGB LED strip lighting. I haven't fooled with trying to dim these strips, I have them setup as "all on" or "all off" through switched outlets. The controller for the LED strips has shown to have a relatively non-volitile memory, so whatever color, sequence, or dimming, is retained between uses. The LED themselves are setup with the credit card remote that came with the controller, which I was able to teach to my AR ARRX18G universal remote, as well as the Lutron codes, so I can change GE scenes or the LED color/ intensity.
The strip LEDs come with a regulated power supply that probably wouldn't appreciate changing its incoming voltage.
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post #544 of 592
11/11/12 at 6:43am
Here is my reasoning:

* LED lighting fixtures and bulbs are still very expensive, especially if you are buying this many lights. So in a perfect world all of these fixtures would be LED to eliminate any potential extra heat load for this highly insulated room, but incandescent, halogen, etc. are significantly cheaper and let's face it - the lights will be off most of the time

* Using a single-color 120V LED or incandescent rope light will allow easy on/off and dimming through the Grafik Eye. Going with the LED strip light will only allow you to set that zone to "on/off" and require the use of the included secondary remote to independently adjust the light intensity which is not optimal when you are selecting "scenes". Of course the work-around is to have that LED dimming code issued through the IR control system. However, the control problem becomes worse if you move to any kind of RGB strip lighting control if you try to move beyond the preset solid colors which are accessible via IR.

* The Grafik Eye QS and the control module is significantly more expensive for purchase than the current Grafik Eye. This is especially true because the product is so new that relatively few could be sourced "used" or new open stock. Again, this plays into the overall system cost.

One point of note - a traditional Grafik Eye has a maximum of 6 zones. But what most people don't know if you can pair multiple Grafik Eyes together to function as a single zones unit. So in Dave's room he could actually have up to 10 different zones of lighting depending how he ultimately decides to break everything out.
Edited by TMcG - 11/11/12 at 2:45pm
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post #545 of 592
11/11/12 at 11:27am
Thread Starter 
That's exactly what I was about to say, lol. Thanks, Tim
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post #546 of 592
11/12/12 at 6:33pm
Thread Starter 
I finally figured out that dang chair rail molding. I got tired of testing with oak as its a hard wood with a tough grain. So i just took some of my Walnut and cut out the sap wood to use for blanks. There is still a bit of chattering in the profile, especially the cove section, but I think I can work that out, it could be sanded out but that would be a PIA. Once i get this down, I am going to move on to the Crown.

On a side note, it may all be for nothing as the wife is probably going to get me this

http://www.globalindustrial.com/p/tools/woodworking/planers-molders-jointers/jpm-13cs-13-closed-stand-planer-molder-1-1-2hp-1ph-115-230v?utm_source=shopping&utm_medium=shp&utm_campaign=Planers-PlanerMolders-PlanerJointers-shop&infoParam.campaignId=WP

Oh well, I enjoy figuring it out anyways. I can honestly say after mixing dyes and shellacs and working on finishes and wood, I am itching to actually start building out some of the room. I may just go ahead and start the riser and baffle wall

Pics.....





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post #547 of 592
11/13/12 at 7:26am
That looks pretty nice, though I think you will need to work on your dust collection if you are doing a whole room. wink.gif

What kind of router are you using for that? My old router I was using for table work burned out. I'm debating just getting another router or forking over some bucks and getting a shaper.
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post #548 of 592
11/13/12 at 10:44am
Thread Starter 
Half the time when I'm running the router I forget to turn on the shop vac....lol. And yes the saw dust gets thick, real fast.

I have a 2.5 HP Bosch for the table, and a bosh palm router for everything else.

You might want to consider a molder over the shaper. If your looking for decorative moldings then the molder is much better equipped for that purpose IMO. The shaper however is more versatile but definitly more difficult to make flat moldings.

If you plan on doing a lot of "flat" mouldings like baseboards, door casings and crowns (which are typically milled "flat") then a molder will be a better choice. These are difficult to mill on a shaper.

The advantage to the molder is the fact that it makes more than one cut at a time, has a wider capacity, and functions as a planer

But dont get me wrong, the shaper is a great tool and can do a ton, I just think that a Molder is better in this case. Of course this is just my opinion, others might argue otherwise
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post #549 of 592
11/13/12 at 10:47am
Thread Starter 
Forgot to mention, you will probably need a power feeder for the shaper, that is an added cost smile.gif
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post #550 of 592
11/13/12 at 11:08am
That Jet molder looks really nice and I could definitely see utilizing something like that. I'm thinking shaper for door production, although I didn't consider the power feeder aspect. I'll have to take a look at those.
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post #551 of 592
11/13/12 at 12:34pm
Thread Starter 
Door production would be done best with a Shaper, I totally agree. And I have to admit that a Shaper is more versatile. My logic behind it is this, i'll have the Molder for all the moldings, casings etc. And if I need to make raised panels and stiles I can do that on my router table. But if you go the shaper route, I would love to hear your experience with it.
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post #552 of 592
11/19/12 at 1:48pm
Thread Starter 
My Maple Burl veneer is in for the Wainscoting Panels. It looks fantastic, I couldn't have asked for anything better. Now I need to build my vacuum press so that I can glue up some panels!

Here are some pics, the great thing about burl is you usually get quite a bit of curly figure in it as well. This is especially true with Maple.....









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post #553 of 592
11/20/12 at 3:48pm
Thread Starter 
I started building a Vacuum Press tonight so that I can glue down the veneer. I could have used weights and clamps but decided that it would be worth it to go with the vacuum press. Maple Burl has a tendency to be a bit wavy in veneer form. I wasnt taking any chances. Below are a few pics if anyone is interested, ....probably not...lol FYI, I went with a venturi system so I could use my compressor and save money by not having to purchase a vacuum pump!

First built the manifold...





Then drilled and tapped the caps for the reservoir tanks.



Started assembly



To be continued........

EDIT: If anyone wants a step by step with materials let me know here, i'll post a more detailed post
Edited by fax6202 - 11/20/12 at 3:55pm
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post #554 of 592
11/20/12 at 4:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by fax6202 View Post

EDIT: If anyone wants a step by step with materials let me know here, i'll post a more detailed post

Silly, silly question.wink.gif
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post #555 of 592
11/20/12 at 5:38pm
I'm kind of surprised that this is such a DIYable process. I was going to ask you all sorts of technical engineering questions about your setup, but I figured it would be simpler for me to google it and see some designs and setups. (Google is awesome) I would have thought, for instance, that you would need a large compressor tank to have adequate air to draw a vacuum through the venturi, but it seems you don't.

Looks to me, after a cursory search, that the key is having adequate size and quality vacuum bags. What are you working with there?
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post #556 of 592
11/20/12 at 6:41pm
Thread Starter 
Ok....The build continues....

First thing I did was build a platform to support the tanks on the bottom and to provide a platform for the controllers/pump/valves on top. Im also going to wire up a simple switch in a one gang.

Nothing fancy here, just some scrap whiteboard. Piece on top, piece on the bottom. One piece in the middle perpendicular to the top and bottom..





Now to the important part, the guts/brains of the system. Everything this far has been a breeze.

This is a 3-way MAC valve, it controls the air flow from the compressor



Attached a quick connector. This is where the input from the compressor is



Now the venturi vacuum pump, it uses compressed air to create vacuum pressure



I just connected the vacuum pump to the 3-way MAC valve. The MAC valve will control the air flow into the vacuum pump. The pump will need 80 psi, the valve regulates that.



Attach the two of them to the platform, close to the manifold



Now to the vacuum pressure controler. Attached a brass nipple



Attaching the vacuum pressure controler to the platform along side the valve/pump assembly. This will monitor the pressure inside the system and recharge the vacuum as needed



This is where i quit for the night. To be continued tomorrow....

If anyone is wondering why I have those two big reservoir tanks, they are used to hold spare vacuum pressure. It prevents the vacuum source from having to cycle on and off all the time. Thetanks that are 3" diameter, solid core, schedule 40 PVC
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post #557 of 592
11/20/12 at 7:01pm
Is it safe to use PVC for vacuum air applications? I know that it is not recommended for compressed air due to bursting/shattering issues.
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post #558 of 592
11/20/12 at 7:47pm
Thread Starter 
Yes, its safe. Especially under the low pressures I'm dealing with. However, you cannot substitute any other type of
PVC for the solid core schedule 40 pressure pipe. Foam core PVC, sometimes called cellular PVC, and black ABS pipe will collapse under pressure.
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post #559 of 592
11/21/12 at 5:57pm
Do you have any plans yet for the rest of your room finishings (fabric, carpet, etc.)?
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post #560 of 592
11/22/12 at 8:35am
Thread Starter 
I have. Carpet will most likely be from Stanton, still looking at different styles, but maybe something like this http://www.stantoncarpet.com/ProductDetail.aspx?ProductID=25&SKUID=35

Still looking at fabrics. To be honest most of my time has been designing the woodwork for the HT, and testing different dyes for the Walnut and Maple Burl. That has kept me pretty busy
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post #561 of 592
11/23/12 at 4:50pm
Thread Starter 
Well I finished building the vacuum press, tested everything and it checked out fine. Will start veneering tomorrow on some test pieces, I just have to get some melamine so that I can make the Platens.

A few pics....

Screwed down a 1 gang box to house the switch...



Wired the switch



A simple drawing on how I wired the press...



And the finished product.....



The vacuum press needs to run right at or close to 21 inches of Mercury (Hg). The pressure can be adjusted on the controller by a little set screw. Pretty simple to do, just introduce around 100 psi and turn it on, the press will build pressure and the gauge will give you the Hg reading. If it is low then you just turn counter-clockwise to get to 21 Hg. Once the vacuum hits 21 Hg it turns off and will not come back on until it drops to about 4 Hg less than the set point. Cant wait to give it a shot tomorrow.

This was a very inexpensive project. The vacuum bag was by far the most expensive part.
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post #562 of 592
11/23/12 at 5:13pm
Pretty cool vacuum press. Please keep us well informed on how it works out. If you could provide the type of glue you're using, that would be helpful!

As for shapers and molders.. I had the pleasure of using the Delta shaper. Shapers are nice, but as you noted before, you really need the power feed to get quality results. The constant feed rate is what produces the professional results. Otherwise I would just stick with a router table. I've done all of my rails and stiles on my router table and they came out fine. Sure, the power feed on the shaper would have produced admittedly better results.. but at what cost.

In the category of molders, the Williams Hussey molders are pretty much the standard. My friend had one and he produced some amazing moldings. He even did curved moldings for circle-top windows. They are pricey though.

Tim
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post #563 of 592
11/23/12 at 6:14pm
Thread Starter 
Tim-

Most of the modern synthetics and especially the contact types and PVA types are bad choices for me, for this specific project. I will go with a water resistant 2-part urea. The reason for this is I will be wetting the wood quite a bit. First, I am doing a Ferrous Sulfate (FS) wash to enrich and bring the burl/curly figure to life and then work in a water-based Trans-fast dye. Also, since these dyes are pretty deep penetrating and they tend to raise the grain a bit I may have to precondition the veneer, although I think that I can get away with it because Maple doesn’t have extremely open pores/grain like oak for instance. I need to really experiment first. Hard maple is a very close grained wood, but burl might be a different animal. I will also need to veneer both sides to prevent warping. I’ll use a cheap veneer for the ‘back’ side, as to not waste my very nice burl. I just need to use a burl with the same thickness.

You’re spot on about the Williams Hussey molders, great equipment but very expensive. I am going with a JET planer/molder. It has good reviews and I can get it for 1k shipped! Add the fact that I am not doing a ton of moldings as a shop wood I think it will be more than enough. But I have to say that I have been eyeing the Powermatic Molders as well.
The original plan was to stick with my router table. I have a pretty good router table but it’s tough to mill those wider profiles, I learned that the hard way with a 2 ¼ inch Chair Rail bit. Besides that sounds like a great excuse to buy a new tool!

I will definitely keep everyone up to date with the vacuum press. I think the best way would be to just make a video and post on youtube.

One last tidbit, if I wasn’t exposing the veneer so many water based applications then I could have easily gone with a cold press veneer glue.

This is all just my opinion of course, as veneering is very new to me as well!
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post #564 of 592
11/24/12 at 4:07pm
Thread Starter 
Testing started this afternoon.

Before I got started it was necessary to make platens, so I picked up a sheet of melamine. I ripped it down to a more manageable and usable size



Used a straight cut router bit so that I could cut the required groves in the panels. There is not set pattern, you just need to have enough groves so that pressure will pull down evenly across the substrate you are veneering









Then used a 1/4" round over bit so that I did not have any sharp edges on the platen



Time to test with some scrap veneers



Im using a small piece of MDF as my substrate



Got out some cold press veneer glue. This is for a test only as i will be using a 2 part Urea as explained above





Rolled on the glue and placed the veneer on the MDF substrate





It's necessary to use another panel of MDF on top of the veneer, creating a sandwich. The vacuum bag will compress this top piece evenly across it.



Painters tape to hold everything together



The veneer sandwich then goes in the vacuum bag on top of the platen



Break out the vacuum press and hook up the hose





Sealed the opening of the vacuum bag



Turned on the press and it immediately started sucking the air out of the bag. I will need to run this for an hour

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post #565 of 592
11/24/12 at 4:44pm
Thread Starter 
Test results are in and all I can say is, I should have built one of these a long time ago. The veneer is very very flat. It was not that flat before it was pressed. Sky is the limit with this thing as some of the most exotic woods are only affordable for most, in veneer.



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post #566 of 592
11/24/12 at 5:00pm
Very nice! Where are you getting your veneers from-- locally or internet?

I would love to try this. I have a vacuum pump so really I just need the bag and a little motivation. Maybe after the theater is done.. Coffee table sub has been on my mind smile.gif

Tim
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post #567 of 592
11/24/12 at 7:38pm
Thread Starter 
Thanks Tim.

Veneers were bought from http://www.veneersupplies.com/ . The owner Joe, is great. He'll answer all of your questions through email, he's very helpful. I also got the plans to build the pump from him.

You'll need a little more than just the bag, but not much at all. It would be very inexpensive for you to get setup.

I too have a list of projects I want to get done after the basement is done! Some that include exotic veneers with solid stock where it is needed (i.e. table legs, rails)
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post #568 of 592
11/25/12 at 4:52am
Really nice work Dave! All that hands-on work with the veneer and wood finishing is really going to set your theater room apart.
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post #569 of 592
11/25/12 at 7:19am
Looks good Dave, can't wait to see what you do with the your woodwork (and maybe steal ideas from you).
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post #570 of 592
11/25/12 at 7:28am
Thread Starter 
Thanks Bill. Once I get going with the finishing your welcome to come by and see it in person
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