Best speakers (stereo) around ~$3000? - Page 3

I suggest you try the Canton 830.2 I just purchased a pair and they are outstanding. THe spes say it goes down to 27hz, dont know about that, but the mid bass is felt in my chest with certain music. Its an outstanding speaker. Here is a address to the site...http://www.canton.de/en/hifi/vento/produkt/vento830.2.htm

And too my review of them....http://forums.audioreview.com/speakers/canton-vento-830-2-a-38149.html

Excellent, always best to use music you are familiar with. That means you were hearing a much higher direct/reflected ratio, greatly mitigating the off axis behavior of each speaker and it's contribution to the perceived sound. Is this representative of how you listen at home? Nearfield in a larger room with the speakers several feet from the sidewalls?

cheers,

AJ

My room is 12x15 - speakers on short wall - speakers about 6'-7' apart - 3' from sidewalls and rear walls. I really enjoy sitting in an triangle with this setup.

Hi Rick We're on the same page, as it were. That's what I was looking at:

"4 ohms nominal
6 ohms average"

thats about how I listen too, but im 7.5 apart and 7.8 back the way the room works out, But I have 5 feet behind me, and there is about 6 feet to the side of each speaker from the walls. My rooms is slightly bigger at 14x17, but they are on the long wall the way the house is setup. I have never found the Contours to be great with rock music, they lack the fun, but great Jazz or Classical speakers, they dont lack bass, thats for sure, but half of what I listen to is rock music of various kinds, and I am much happier with the Focus then the Contours. The funny thing about those Totems, is they use a Dynaudio woofer, with a tweeter from SEAS, they are one of like 4 speakers that Totem uses the Dynaudio woofer for, its also the Winds midrange driver, the mid-woofer on the model-1 sig center, the mani 2, and the model-1 T(twin), the forest uses a hivi version. I got to hear a lot of totems at the place I bought the Excites, he sold both. I was between the Sttafs and Excites the whole time after hearing a ton of speakers. However, I ended up prefering the Excites more, esp for HT. Never heard a Nola. I know them by reputation tho.

Then I would expect those speakers to sound different in your room, since that size/distance is probably quite different from the showroom, yes?
Both rooms furnished like typical living room spaces (i.e., not empty)?

Check out GoldenEar Tritons Two.

After auditions, I passed on more expensive Salks and Dalis, and bought Tritons Two for $2,700.

Absolutely love'em.

Nuance, I don't follow your reasoning (or anyone else's) that [anechoic] measurements below 200 Hz are useless to the consumer. In order for a room to influence a speaker's output by boosting or attenuating certain frequencies, the output must be there. A speaker that is 20-30 dB down in an anechoic chamber at 40 Hz (or pick your bass frequency) will not reproduce music faithfully no matter what reinforcing effects a room has or that equalization applies. Bottom line is the higher the quality of the LF frequency response in an anechoic environment, the more likely it will be possible to approach a flat in-room response by applying equalization, bass traps, etc.

Likewise, a speaker that exceeds 10% HD at reasonable output levels in low bass will sound lousy no matter what room it's in. A speaker whose LF driver reaches its excursion limits at reasonable volumes will sound lousy no matter what room it's in. I'm not sure this point is relevant to what you were saying but it is another aspect of LF performance that buyers can translate into real world performance given good measurements.

The issue is the debate is more subjective than anything else.

When people say "extremely detailed" for two speakers, a lot comes into play, including biases. Which is "better", really boils down to your preferences...including your own biases.

Have you had a chance to get out and listen to different speakers and setup?

Unless you live on the moon get out there and audition. Nobody can describe a sound to you as you may perceive differently as stated. I'll take a crappy audition over no audition any day.

I think the only time I would buy without hearing is if under $1k and that is pushing it. My first speakers years ago were an ID brand. Axiom. They were the most Gawd awful speakers to me ever. I was a newbie and tried to tell myself I just need to adjust. Everyone else loves them. Must be me.
Missed my return window ( and what a hassle). I would have a drink on the weekend and listen and it got worse not better. Even alcohol couldn't fix this disaster.

A year later, auditioned many brands and fell in love with Dynaudio. It was a real toss for me as I liked Focal and Sonus Faber as well. It was fun to get out and listen. Axiom- give away at a yard sale. That's what you get sometimes for not auditioning. It may not be a perfect audition due to poor set-up or room but you should be able to get a feeling of the character of the speaker.

There have been some solid suggestions here for audition. Run with it.

Rick

I will paste a few links to start.

Music Lovers Berkely or SF
Paradigm Revel Sonus Faber
http://www.musicloversaudio.com/products/category.php/speakers/

AudioVision in SF. Where I purchased my Dynaudio set-up Focus then Confidence. You really might want to listen to Focus or Excite. Also for fun listen to the Contour S1.4 monitors. Do not let monitors scare you off. I use Confidence C1 monitors and I would take them over most towers in same price range. But that's me. If you can hear these too while there you might understand. Future upgrades are fun!

They have so many speakers. Kid in candy store. Dynaudio KEF PSB Dali
Try the Contour S 1.4:)
http://www.audiovisionsf.com/?page=loudspeakers

Century Stereo in San Jose
Bowers & Wilkins Totem others
http://www.centurystereo.com/audio-video-brands/reference-and-in-wall-speakers/

I will give you a few others later. Gets you started. ID no middleman that's great. Just like Axiom experience. It works for some but I think that middleman line is played out. Dynaudio makes their own drivers. As well as Focal. Not saying any negative here as I'm sure some listed here are very good but I will say it "resell value" and you live in the Bay Area like me. We probably have more stores to visit and audition then perhaps any place in the Country. How can you just let that slip by? The guy in small town USA would kill to have the stores that are available at our finger tips.

I will list a few others later.
Rick
Edited by Mr.SoftDome - 6/9/12 at 5:44pm

Measurements aren't useless; they are very important actually. I just meant that a nearfield measurement of a speaker's bass response may not mimic what you receive in-room. Some consumers (probably most) may night understand that. I'll try to word my statement more careful next time.

If you want proof just read the threads on Internet Direct companies. You get more for your money because there is no middle man, thus no markup. They generally use top of the line drivers too, but you don't get charged markup for them, so they are more affordable. Just look at the Ascend, Aperion or Salk threads - their popularity is huge. That doesn't mean you'll like their speakers, though, so definitely audition before you buy. They do offer a 30-day in-home trial period, though...

If you want to stick to only Brick and Mortar stores though - cool. Check out Revel, Kef and Dynaudio, then; you'll just pay a lot more for those brands than something ID.
Edited by Nuance - 6/9/12 at 5:53pm

Nuance,

I respect your replies in most posts but can't agree with you at all based on your last reply. I think it's very misleading to those whom have not performed an audition with speakers before. It's misleading to state that those IDs you mention are a better buy then Dynaudio Focal or others. I couldn't disagree more. Even though you do say to audition.

The respectful response to newer folks in audio is to say go audition and then try ID to see how they compare. Your teacher to student lesson should always be find a speaker brand you love and after hearing many brands then try ID and see if you get something close to what you loved. And I will repeat that most aren't going to stay with what they currently own including me at C1. See what you can sell these IDs for when the time comes. Like selling a Yugo. Your middleman just went out the window.

Rick
Edited by Mr.SoftDome - 6/9/12 at 9:17pm

Lets look at this, dynaudio vs SEAS

Dynaudio and SEAS makes a woofer for $400, that is Dynaudio's cost, SEAS sells it for $720. Dynaudio and SEAS makes a tweeter for $350, SEAS sells it for $630. So ID-X company buys these SEAS drivers, they paid $1350 for their 2-way speaker, add in they build their own crossover, for $200 and cabinet for 80. Dynaudio also builds the similar cabinet and crossover, so now the cost of each is $1580 v 1030. they both have a profit margin of 40%, so ID-X charges $2950 per speaker. Dynaudio gives it to the dealer at $1850, says the list price is $3300 per speaker another 40% profit margin. Both speakers cost the similar, they just came about differently. Say the dealer gives you 10% off, you pay $3k, youre about the same price.

(assuming a 1.8 markup in all senarios, which is roughly a 40% profit margin)
Edited by callas01 - 6/9/12 at 8:54pm

Answer to your first question, no it does not... depending on the setup that is. Idealistically, one driver that could play flat from 20hz-20khz would have perfect imaging; however, these do not exist.

The thing is, 3 drivers tends to be the norm (with the exception of an extra bass driver). Each driver optimized to play low, medium, or high. 2 way's are not as common but are at no disadvantage. As long as the system is optimized to use 3 drivers, then its on the same playing field as anything using less (maybe at the cost of some imaging and dispersion (which is hard to notice)). More drivers also allow less distortion, which is why its quite common to see two bass drivers. Each driver can run less to produce the same spl compared to just one driver.

In short, amount of drivers is not important, 3 drivers vs 2 drivers that are optimized in a system to play flat will most likely not sound much different.

Answer to your second question, its not plain black and white. I personally own the Swan T900F's. Swan is the in house speaker company owned by the parent HiVi who produces the drivers. Their speakers have received much praise. Their speakers are sold at a great value from the start, and keep that great value even when they come to the US. Do I think they are better then salk/phil? I wouldn't know. I have not heard them yet, although I'd love too. I love my T900F's and don't find anything "lacking". Since I find them perfect, its hard to imagine the phils or salks sounding "better". Until I hear "better", I'll live contently thinking that I am hearing the "best". Technically in America Swan is ID but they're not the same kind of company like salk and phil are. They are much larger, so you may jump to the conclusion that because they are a much bigger company, they probably offer a worse deal. I beg to differ.

So is it safe to say that ID companies are always better? No, its more common than not. Brick and mortar in my opinion should never be considered. Many people however may prefer B&W sound over salk's. It's all subjective. Take all the recommendations and proceed to do your own research. Would I personally say you can find a better deal than salk/phil/ascend/swan? Nope, but that's simply by word to mouth and not by ear.

You are already interested by the Phils/Swans/Ascends. If you are looking for flat clean sound, then any of those will do.

The Sierra RAAL's should sound exceptionally well, although I know of no description of their sound.

You mentioned you prefer black so the T900F's are out of the question.

Good Luck!
Edited by Khaos - 6/9/12 at 7:47pm

Give those Wharfedale Jade 3's a listen, along with the many other speakers likely carried.

Atlantic Stereo
445 E 17th Street, Suite A
Costa Mesa, CA 92627
(949) 646-8895

Audio FX
3013 D Street
Sacramento, CA 95816
(916) 929-2100

Audio Symphony
1525 Van Ness Ave
San Francisco, CA 94109
(415) 292-3300

Axiom Home Theater
501 Lighthouse Ave, Suite 300
Monterey, CA 93940
(831) 645-9900

Brooks Berdan Ltd.
110 West Olive Ave
Monrovia, CA 91016
(626) 359-9131

Lavish Theaters
402 Moore Lane
Healdsburg, CA 95448
(707) 433-9199

Soundscape
Audio & Video, Inc.
1044 4th Street
Santa Rosa, CA 95404
(707) 578-4434

I went through similar experience with Salk Song Towers, I wouldn't say they are "Gawd awful", but instead of listening to what I like I had to start listening to what sounds good on my speakers. I still think they are awesome at some stuff and might make some1 very happy, but after 4 month trying to convince myself that they are worth keeping I gave up and switched to KEF. Some people tried to "help" my with STs by saying the problem is in either my recordings, AVR or the room.

O yeah, be careful with "30 days trials", you might have to pay for both ways shipping with will make free=$400 and it may only cover standard versions of the product. The real free I know of are Aperion and NHT, and I think bookshelfs only from EMP.

For the price/value argument I think at the lower end of price point (which covers my $2K/pair budget) the big companies would almost always win. You will pay for middle man, marketing overhead and all that. With ID companies keep in mind that they buy their parts from Parts Express or some1 like that who in turn gets those from manufacturers. For cabinets making those individually in US is way more expensive than factory made boxes at big companies. So while you are saving by eliminating the middle man and all other overhead big companies have the cost of ID companies parts & labor may run the price up more than the "middle man". Exception maybe the Philharmonics because those use china made cabinets and Denis is selling them really close to his cost. I was trying to do math on the speakers in my price range, ID vs big guys, so KEF R500 ($1900 street price) and Song Towers $2000 price. STs use $70/piece drivers (MSRP on Madisound) from that $70 Madisound gets a cut and SEAS gets a cut, so whats the true value of that driver? Now if KEF would offer their drivers through Madisound my guess is that R series drivers would run WAY more than $70.
Another example KEF Q100 is $375/pair, big company, so should be bad value. There is an ID company that uses drivers from Q100s in their bookshelf speakers, add 8" woofer, plate AMP and sell for $1300 i think. Everybody hails that $1300 as a great value.
Than there is a question of the R&D available for big companies vs what ID companies have.
So the whole "ID offers more for your money" is arguable as a least. I think it's fueled by one audio enthusiast support for another. Of course I would want to believe that a fellow audiophile in his garage can make a better speaker than a faceless corporation, but if it was true we wouldn't have a problem with big corporations running small companies out of business.
Now it might be different with $10K budget, I dunno.

So I'd say ID is an interesting option and with their customers being their fans as well customers will be willing to open their home for an audition. But I would definitely not buy anything just because people on this forum says it's a best option in your price range.

There is just no way around auditioning for yourself. Or actually after a month in your home you will know for sure if you love the speakers or not.
Edited by yveletnik - 6/9/12 at 9:47pm

I can tell you that with Ascend Acoustics, drivers are purchased directly from manufacturers, and cabinets are not made individually (whether overseas or in the USA).
Edited by cschang - 6/9/12 at 10:30pm

I told him to audition both, so I'm not sure where you're coming from. I also explained the ID model, and then gave my opinion on it; you're free to have a differing opinion. I don't recall saying any brand was better than Dynaudio, though; I was simply speaking of the ID model vs. B&M. In my opinion you do get more for your money from certain ID companies, but that doesn't mean you'll agree, which why I said definitely audition.

Almost forgot, the resale value on Salk or Ascend is very high. Just look at previous sales. Also, yveletnik listens to primarily rock, and most of that is poorly recorded. A good speaker will reproduce the recording as is, so the speaker isn't at fault if the sound is bad with a poor recording. If you listen to lousy recordings perhaps a speaker that doesn't measure flat on and off axis is not the best choice.
Edited by Nuance - 6/9/12 at 10:16pm

Your hypothetical assumes two things. 1) That Seas charges that much markup. How do you know what they charge and what their actual cost is? 2). You assume the Dynaudio driver is superior; it very well might not be. I really like Dynaudio, so just know I'm just using them as an example because you did first. Also, many of the ID companies purchase directly from the driver manufacturer, not some vendor.

honestly, I dont know what either company uses as a mark up, however I do know that most MFGs I work with, operate on a 30-40% profit margin. I dont know the cost of either of their drivers, cabinets or crossovers, I was gonna use a generic name, B&M MFG & ID-X, but since I didnt know how to classify SEAS, (I guess I could have used OEM Driver MFG, but that was too long to type, and then someone could have said, Focal/Dynaudio are OEM driver mfgs as well, you know forum people can be). I have no idea whos driver is better or worse, which would probably be subjective anyways, that is why I assumed that each driver is equal performance-wise, based on cost.

it is purely hypothetical, but that was the point, your original blanket statement lumped all brands sold by B&Ms into a category opposite that of IDs. You could be very right in some ways, say a B&M brands uses the same drivers as an ID brand example the same as above, now the cost of the speaker to the consumer is $2950 v $5000.... that is a huge difference. Anyways.... Cant wait to see what AJ will say.... Im sure he'll write a novel including pie charts and graphs and post it as a pdf file so we can save it to our laptops for future discussions. (j/k AJ, if you write something that long I wont read it.)
Edited by callas01 - 6/9/12 at 10:20pm

This is very key. Just like there are some B&M brands that seem to give you more for your money than others, the same holds true for ID brands.

There are some B&M brands that go on a "fire" type sale once in a while. When this happens, I think bang for the buck is high and competing with the better ID brands.

LOL, good one. Although, AJ's style is more of the dodge and jab type.

As you said, each scenario is different, but all I was doing was explaining the ID model vs. B&M. There are exclusions, of course; I don't care for Axiom or some of the Aperion stuff, but that doesn't mean you won't like it. Auditioning is key to buying speakers and should always be done. Fortunately ID companies offer the in home trial period, though you may be out shipping costs if you return them. Whether that's worth it or not is up to each individual.

To the original poster of this thread, there are ton of speaker comparisons on this forum, many including the brands you're interested in, and some are full fledged reviews. Happy reading, hunting and listening. I'm sure you'll find an amazing setup that'll bring you years of enjoyment.

Honestly, I have no issue with IDs, I think they can offer great bang for the buck, but I think some B&M brands can too. As you said, its all about hearing and deciding for oneself what makes that person happiest.

I think that the customer support provided by these ID companies,especially Salk, Selah, Philharmonic and Mark seaton are impeccable. No big companies can provide this kind of support to the customers.
Of course, there is a real price advantage with ID companies. For example, No large company can compete with Seaton or JTR or SVS or Rhythmic or HSU in PRICE to PERFORMANCE ratio. Unless you spend at least twice the price, you cannot find a sub that can match the performance of any of the subs manufactured by these companies.
So, there has to be good price benefit with even speakers bought from ID companies. Not to forget the outstanding custom finishes provided by these speaker manufacturers, which can never ever be matched by any big non ID company.

what kind of support is that exactly?