Panasonic ST50 image retention, please help! - Page 5

Originally Posted by oztech 

You assumed that because a few posted this that all of us owners are experiencing this if that were really the case then the forum would be flooded with bad experience one right after another .

Originally Posted by falconman515 

No because for some reason people here feel that if they get the blackest blacks and a flawless high source content picture it's a trade-off for them to have to go through the mess of only watching specific material so they can avoid the Complete And Utter Obvious fact that this TV is an IR magnet waiting to happen ... those who know like you all here are aware of this so all you watch is 1080P with no logos, no sports, no games, and no regular HD TV on the lowest backlight and brightness setting possible ... So you can say "Well Mine Doesn't Have IR" ... of course it doesn't cause you don't do half of the things you should normally do on a regular TV so you Don't get this problem.
A TV is to watch TV ... watch ANYTHING .. regardless of logos on channels and sports, so you can play games if and when and for how long you want without having to worry about a game HUD burned into your screen forever, and set your brightness and settings wherever you feel gives you the best picture even if its in "torch mode" as you nerds call it ... You guys are nuts to have to limit your content just cause the TV can't handle it!
A TV is meant to be a Television ... Watch what you want, play what you want, for however long you want, whenever you want, as bright as you want, with as many logos as you want!
This is not a standard TV .. it's a luxury TV .. for those who watch perfect source 1080p movies ... in that case this TV win hands down (the reviews reflect that of course).
I want a nice tv with a Good picture and something I can do what I want to do on it whenever I want.
People need to stop defending the complete FACT that this TV is the worst hands down for IR (this has been proved even by cnet) ... you guys just don't do anything on it at all that is considered "bad" for this TV ...so of course you don't have the problem cause you do EVERYTHING possible to not get it just to say ... "well I don't get IR so you are all wrong".

Originally Posted by olyteddy 

Who said it isn't? Over 3100 threads with 'Image Retention'. How many more would there be if I searched for 'IR' instead? Hard to say because 'IR' also brings up lots of remote control threads...

Originally Posted by vilago 

I don't understand the relevance of the last couple of posts...
well anyway, played an online game early on in the life of my VT, thinking that in between matches i'd be fine if i used the scrollling bar. nope. even after nearly 36 hours of continuous running of a moving full screen image, on a solid colored background (green/gray etc) i can see where the bright white numbers have aged those pixels. i thought that since the tv was still somewhat new, i still had a chance to even out the pixels. i'm pretty sure at this point it's permanent. i don't like that there's this new rumour going around that plasma is safe from permanent burn-in. no way.
maybe after another 1000 hours of continuous use it will fully even out but even then, i just don't know.
i am pretty tech saavy and thought i was taking the proper precautions, using zoom feature, scrolling bar and a lower contrast/brightness mode that it would be ok. truth is, i'm starting to understand why some people run their sets for a few days non stop to age it. maybe i can use DSE or banding as a reason to return it and get new 30 day replacement. sort of dishonest i know, but since panasonic didn't make it perfectly clear in the user manual exactly how to use the tv when new, i put the blame on lack of communication.

Originally Posted by Michael2000 

I sincerely doubt it is burned, or permanent. You didn't have it on that long. This sounds like IR caused by MgO sputtering. The fix is to run a full white screen, not the scrolling bar. How long depends on the level of IR. That will distribute the MgO. Someone else tried this, and it worked great.
Michael

Originally Posted by falconman515 

....A TV is meant to be a Television ... Watch what you want, play what you want, for however long you want, whenever you want, as bright as you want, with as many logos as you want!
....I want a nice tv with a Good picture and something I can do what I want to do on it whenever I want.
People need to stop defending the complete FACT that this TV is the worst hands down for IR (this has been proved even by cnet) ... you guys just don't do anything on it at all that is considered "bad" for this TV ...so of course you don't have the problem cause you do EVERYTHING possible to not get it just to say ... "well I don't get IR so you are all wrong".

If you're buying a TV and want to use it as an occasional PC monitor I would still recommend using an LCD, but gaming and occasional Web browsing on a plasma is fine.
The fact that these effects faded over time should give you some reassurance that this is not a permanent issue for a modern plasma TV. If it doesn't, by all means get an LCD.

But despite the ever-decreasing concerns about burn-in there's one reason I will always pick a plasma over an LCD: Image quality. For the money nothing can beat a plasma for deep black levels, wide viewing angles, uniformity, and motion-blur-free gaming.

Originally Posted by robnix 


Put it in Quotes and you get 2200. Sort them by date and they go back 10 years. Here's a few of the threads that pop up on the first three pages of my results:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/337725/weird-lcd-image-retention
http://www.avsforum.com/t/160260/dila-image-retention
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1131444/what-image-retention-on-led
http://www.avsforum.com/t/954645/enough-with-all-the-clutter-graphics-on-my-hd-screen
http://www.avsforum.com/t/686371/dynaudio-owners-thread
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1365649/what-features-would-you-like-in-your-next-oppo-br-player-and-discussion-on-when-it-may-be-released
http://www.avsforum.com/t/678260/anthem-d2-d2v-avm50-avm50v-arc1-tweaking-guide
You can look at the URL and figure out which forums they were posted in and how much relevancy they have. I didn't even cherry pick all the non plasma threads. Some of those didn't even have the phrase "image retention' in them, so I'd take the search results from this forum with a grain of salt,

Originally Posted by Dierkdr 

Have you read the CNET report article that "proved" that the ST50 is "the worst hands down for IR" - ??
If so, your memory seems a bit faulty. If NOT, perhaps you should take the time: "Samsung plasma wins....".
First thing you might notice is that the ST50 was NOT one of the panels "tested." Oops.
Second thing is that precisely THREE panels were involved in their Accidental Test: it would take a larger number than One Each to even pretend that any given trait - Positive OR Negative - was "Proven."
Third: All of the panels were new: It has long been a given that plasma panels are more susceptible to IR until they've been "aged" for a while. (Admittedly, the definition of "a while" varies....)
Fourth, consider the concluding remarks:

Originally Posted by falconman515 

De-Fense (clap,clap) De-Fense (clap,clap) De-Fense (clap,clap)
ST and GT are the same panel .... Oooopps! (your credibility just stepped out the door after first comment ..lol)
3 panels that you can buy today ... sorry I wasn't thinking about other panels from years past and low grade panels ... they tested the top 3 ... what more do you need.
So they we're new .... ya exaclty what the normal person would do that doesn't nerd out and read these forums ... set it on game settings and play a game (then get IR), set it to vivid cause it looks great and watch sports center (ESPN IR), watch a movie on their favorite network station (Logo IR).
"Normal" users don't "AGE" there televisions ... hell I wouldn't even buy a TV that I have to "Age" ... what the hell is this TV a vintage bottle of wine???
Users need to be aware that this TV is not the TV to buy for the average user![/quote

nevermind

Originally Posted by vilago 

I don't see what the big foo foo is about with the aging thing. used to be, when you bought a car new, you didn't drive it steady for the first 1000 miles or so. and you didn't rev the crap out of it either. it was something EVERYONE had to deal with, in effect, "aging" the engine.

Originally Posted by vilago 

Interesting theory...Can you point me in the direction of more information? I didn't want to leave an all white screen on too long, as I've heard mixed things about it causing heat damage etc.
I did feel like it shouldn't be burned in at this point. I didn't keep the static image on the screen very long at a time, it seemed to be the repetition of it that caused the problem. thanks for the response.

Originally Posted by Michael2000 

This was posted on the VT50 forum:

---

Forget the confusing terminology that is constantly interchanged and mixed up. Here is the scientific info you can trust:
Burn-In, Image retention, image sticking, image ghosting, residual image....etc are all terminology that is constanly interchanged even though there are several mechanisms involved.
Here is a list of the actual mechanisms that I know of in order of probability (most probable first)
1 - phosphorescence - there is a long afterglow component of phosphors that can be seen even when the display is off. It is very very faint however and eventually dissipates.
2 - Residual charge - Plasma displays use dielectric charges to control the on or off states of the pixel. If there is a slight residual charge left when the pixel is turned off the next time it turns on the pixel will be slightly brighter than normal. This will show up as a ghost image on a dark screen. You can tell it is residual charge because the ghost image is slightly brighter than the dark background. This ghost image is transient and easily removed by either a full white screen or watching full screen material for a few hours.
3 - MgO Sputtering - High energy discharge in Plasma displays causes Magnesium Oxide to sputter and deposit onto the phosphor and adjacent pixels. The result is a long lasting ghost image that can take many days to remove. It can be seen as a slightly darker image on a full white screen. Ironically, a full white screen for many hours is the best course of action to resolve this issue as it normalized the deposition of MgO to all pixels (evens it out)
4 - Phosphor aging - Permanent aging of the phosphor material that causes a slightly darker ghost image that is irreversible.
Finally, the screen wipe feature is not useless and will not aggressively "age" your display. It is there to normalize wall charge and MgO deposition (see why above). Remember, plasma displays use dynamic brightness control, so a full white screen or a scrolling white bar should not aggressively age your display.

---

So the first thing to do is to determine is the IR is lighter or darker than a grey screen. If lighter, go to #2. If darker, go to #3.
Michael

Originally Posted by sonyfan 

I don't know about the newer models but In the case of the older Land Rover's the company encouraged buyers
to beat the hell of of them when new and break em in hard.
They were made to take a beating and it had something to do with increasing the life time of the engine, etc.

Originally Posted by kfox203 

I was all set to buy the ST50 until I found this thread.
Plasma seems to be be the best performer for sports content however IR has me worried because I watch a lot of hockey---hockey has a lot of uniform white screen (ice) where I fear any IR will be clearly visible (like on the solid grey/green slides)
Am I right to be concerned?

Originally Posted by kfox203 

I was all set to buy the ST50 until I found this thread.
Plasma seems to be be the best performer for sports content however IR has me worried because I watch a lot of hockey---hockey has a lot of uniform white screen (ice) where I fear any IR will be clearly visible (like on the solid grey/green slides)
Am I right to be concerned?

Originally Posted by kfox203 

I was all set to buy the ST50 until I found this thread.
Plasma seems to be be the best performer for sports content however IR has me worried because I watch a lot of hockey---hockey has a lot of uniform white screen (ice) where I fear any IR will be clearly visible (like on the solid grey/green slides)
Am I right to be concerned?

Originally Posted by kfox203 

I was all set to buy the ST50 until I found this thread.
Plasma seems to be be the best performer for sports content however IR has me worried because I watch a lot of hockey---hockey has a lot of uniform white screen (ice) where I fear any IR will be clearly visible (like on the solid grey/green slides)
Am I right to be concerned?

Originally Posted by Michael2000 

The LCDs have a similar problem called Dirty Screen Effect on white screens (ice). The difference is that is built into the screen, and it is permanent. It's a matter of "pick your poison".
Michael

Originally Posted by DR.DTS 

It's not the uniforms or ice to be concerned about as much as the stationary logos (ESPN, CNN,etc...) and tickers like scores, stocks, news that you need to be worried about. The first 80-100 hours especially where you need to be cautious of your viewing content for extended periods. Just vary your channels a bit to break it in and you'll be fine.

Originally Posted by BriscoCountyJr 

Not an issue from my own hockey viewing with an ST50.
Any slight temporary IR I can only see on the darkest gray slide image, not lighter gray or white background - those are completely clean!

Originally Posted by Michael2000 

This was posted on the VT50 forum:

---

Forget the confusing terminology that is constantly interchanged and mixed up. Here is the scientific info you can trust:
Burn-In, Image retention, image sticking, image ghosting, residual image....etc are all terminology that is constanly interchanged even though there are several mechanisms involved.
Here is a list of the actual mechanisms that I know of in order of probability (most probable first)
1 - phosphorescence - there is a long afterglow component of phosphors that can be seen even when the display is off. It is very very faint however and eventually dissipates.
2 - Residual charge - Plasma displays use dielectric charges to control the on or off states of the pixel. If there is a slight residual charge left when the pixel is turned off the next time it turns on the pixel will be slightly brighter than normal. This will show up as a ghost image on a dark screen. You can tell it is residual charge because the ghost image is slightly brighter than the dark background. This ghost image is transient and easily removed by either a full white screen or watching full screen material for a few hours.
3 - MgO Sputtering - High energy discharge in Plasma displays causes Magnesium Oxide to sputter and deposit onto the phosphor and adjacent pixels. The result is a long lasting ghost image that can take many days to remove. It can be seen as a slightly darker image on a full white screen. Ironically, a full white screen for many hours is the best course of action to resolve this issue as it normalized the deposition of MgO to all pixels (evens it out)
4 - Phosphor aging - Permanent aging of the phosphor material that causes a slightly darker ghost image that is irreversible.
Finally, the screen wipe feature is not useless and will not aggressively "age" your display. It is there to normalize wall charge and MgO deposition (see why above). Remember, plasma displays use dynamic brightness control, so a full white screen or a scrolling white bar should not aggressively age your display.

---

So the first thing to do is to determine is the IR is lighter or darker than a grey screen. If lighter, go to #2. If darker, go to #3.
Michael

Originally Posted by andy sullivan 

Unless for some reason we don't believe Michael2000 I really don't understand the continued concern about IR. Step 2 or step 3 both require the use of a white screen to remedy the IR problem. One just requires a little longer procedure.

Originally Posted by kfox203 

I was all set to buy the ST50 until I found this thread....

Originally Posted by HLdan 

Well despite all the positive reviews from the experts along with great online reviews and great reviews from the actual owners you can respectfully thank FALCON-TROLL for single handedly turning your head in the negative direction because he knows better than the rest of us and knows what's best for us.

Originally Posted by falconman515 

No I made him realize that this technology may not be for viewing habits based on what type of programming he watches!
I could Care Less about the positive reviews by all you owners defending it till die and the expert reviews on on the amazing picture quality etc. etc. ..... that has NOTHING to do with the Image Retention / Burn-In issue that this Tv Suffers from more than any other at the moment it looks like!
You can call me what you will but more than likely I saved this guy and many others in making the mistake in buying this line of panasonic plasmas!
If you want to do nothing but watch movies with no logos, no sports, no games then I would GO FOR IT! But if you watch normal TV like many others with static logos and like to game for a few hours at a time .... then STAY AWAY!
You guys and defending this TV just baffles this hell out me cause you like to sit in dungeon with low brightness settings and choose to not run the default settings they all say are bad watching movies with no bars, no logos, nothing static and then you say .... "Ohh no this TV doesn't have Ir" ... Cause you NEVER do anything like normal people do to ever even see it!
If you are a standard TV watcher then it seems obvious it's gonna happen at some point.
Stop trying to defend this crap and saying it does not suffer from IR ... CAUSE IT DOES!
And I will continue to "Troll" on as you nerds say so people are made aware of this issue before they spend a couple thousand dollars of their hard earned money on something that has a major issue for normal tv viewing.
Now it's your turn to "Defend" this TV and say I the tons of people online that have this issue have no clue what their talking about.

Originally Posted by HLdan 

Well despite all the positive reviews from the experts along with great online reviews and great reviews from the actual owners you can respectfully thank FALCON-TROLL for single handedly turning your head in the negative direction because he knows better than the rest of us and knows what's best for us.