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Panasonic ST50 image retention, please help! - Page 2

post #31 of 756
So far I have only watched Hugo. That was my first 3d experience so I can't really compare it to anything or know what crosstalk even looks like. I think it looked good.
post #32 of 756
Quote:
Originally Posted by vanillacoffee View Post

Wow, lots of discussion here. Thanks to everyone for their input.
The CNET post makes a very compelling argument for the E6500. After reading both reviews, it seems that the main difference is the E6500 does not get quite as bright as the ST50.
To the people saying that my IR will fade: No, I really don't think it will. I have run about 60 hours of content after I noticed it, including slides, random noise, regular TV, and the inverse image of the IR. It has not faded at all. I doubt that it will ever go away. And, it is NOT just visible on slides. I can see it during regular TV depending on what color is behind it. It's actually pretty noticeable.

60 hours isn't very much over the course of a TV's life. You're probably going to have to get another 100 hours before it goes away. Early in a panel's life, nasty IR takes awhile to go away. But the longer you have the set, the more hours you put on it, IR becomes less of a problem and goes away much faster. That's just the nature of the technology.
post #33 of 756
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by QuiGonJosh View Post

60 hours isn't very much over the course of a TV's life. You're probably going to have to get another 100 hours before it goes away. Early in a panel's life, nasty IR takes awhile to go away. But the longer you have the set, the more hours you put on it, IR becomes less of a problem and goes away much faster. That's just the nature of the technology.

You definitely could be right. But I am about 20 days into my 30 day return period, and I would rather just return this set now and not take a chance.
post #34 of 756
Just out of curiosity, how do so many people on forums know how many hours they've put on their TVs? Does plasma software keep track of that so that you can always find out?
post #35 of 756
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kehakas View Post

Just out of curiosity, how do so many people on forums know how many hours they've put on their TVs? Does plasma software keep track of that so that you can always find out?

I'm not aware of such a feature, although that would be great!

My hours are only approximate. I kept a text file log of the break-in process, so I know about how many hours I was running the slides. I then just add a few hours of normal TV watching each night. So when I say 60 hours I really mean something like 60 plus or minus 10.
post #36 of 756
Quote:
Originally Posted by kehakas View Post

Just out of curiosity, how do so many people on forums know how many hours they've put on their TVs? Does plasma software keep track of that so that you can always find out?

In fact, the answer is YES. All TVs have a record of how many hours it has been on and how many times it has been turned on and off. It's in the Service menu but I wouldn't recommend anyone with no experience messing with it.
post #37 of 756
I remember when Chad B did the calibration on the Panasonic at that other forum he also had the Samsung there. He stated that overall he preferred the Panasonic.
post #38 of 756
What does that have to do with IR?
post #39 of 756
This is a good thread. I was in a similar situation a few months back with "image retention" from the netflix pause button. It's still slightly better after probably a 700 hours (including days of slides). I posted a question about it in the Panasonic ST50 owners thread and was basically attacked. Too many Panasonic fans I guess!?!

It doesn't bother me that much now, but I can't see it during normal viewing. If a display technology gets loooong lasting image retention from only pausing content 10 minutes at a time as in my case, maybe it shouldn't be sold to consumers?!?!

I've been told by many on here that what I have is not burn-in bla, bla, bla. Really, how does anyone know without destroying the display and checking the chemical composition of the pixels? And who cares if it's burn-in or IR if it's going to be there for MONTHS and is still there. If any one on here says Panasonic STxx plasmas have a "uniform" picture, I challenge them to put a light grey or green slide!

Many of the reviewers online (except c-net apparently) must be biased because I read several glowing reviews about the ST50 before buying it and none of them mentioned IR. I've even seen IR from just switching sources. I also babied it and ensured a screen saver was set on my Google TV box. I think whatever Panasonic has done to "improve" these recent displays causes our issue, this is my opinion after owning one. I agree with others that traditionally these types of issues may not be as bad on other plasmas, and the C-Net review confirmed it!

Perhaps in 6-8 years when I buy a new TV these issues will be gone and a better display option will be present. I'm not buying another Panasonic anything in the mean time! The display has too many integration issues to list, so if you want a display with discrete commands or IP control, look else where. These are not like the older Viera displays that had discrete codes for aspect ratios etc... Yes, the display has a lot of good points, but something better will come along in a year or so.
post #40 of 756
Thread Starter 
Listen to this person! I could hardly agree more.

I now have a replacement ST50. I ran break-in slides for 110 hours before normal use. It still definitely has IR.

For example, last night, I watched a baseball game and there was IR from the score box. It wasn't really visible during normal viewing, but it was pretty noticeable on a solid color background. I ran slides overnight and it vanished.

Sometimes I notice faint IR just from the TV menus. They are only on screen for probably less than a minute, but it still happens. It does fade away quickly though.

If any prospective buyers are reading this, here's my advice: The IR is not a dealbreaker. It's kind of annoying, but on the other hand, the picture quality is spectacular. Just be careful. Check for IR after displaying anything static, and if you see it, run slides until it vanishes. It will be easier to get rid of if you catch it early.
post #41 of 756
Quote:
Originally Posted by vanillacoffee View Post

Listen to this person! I could hardly agree more.
I now have a replacement ST50. I ran break-in slides for 110 hours before normal use. It still definitely has IR.
For example, last night, I watched a baseball game and there was IR from the score box. It wasn't really visible during normal viewing, but it was pretty noticeable on a solid color background. I ran slides overnight and it vanished.
Sometimes I notice faint IR just from the TV menus. They are only on screen for probably less than a minute, but it still happens. It does fade away quickly though.
If any prospective buyers are reading this, here's my advice: The IR is not a dealbreaker. It's kind of annoying, but on the other hand, the picture quality is spectacular. Just be careful. Check for IR after displaying anything static, and if you see it, run slides until it vanishes. It will be easier to get rid of if you catch it early.

The 2012 Samsung image/signal processing is vastly better than the current Panasonics.
Just a guess but it probably limits IR to the point where it's not an issue.
How carefully the break-in was done is not going to ward off IR when the signal processing is the week link in the chain.

http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-33199_7-57449881-221/samsung-plasma-wins-cnets-accidental-burn-in-test/
post #42 of 756
Yeah, I like the picture quality too. I looked a long time to find a display that could surpass my projector (Sony VPL-VW200). The ST50 actually is slightly better, but at a much cheaper price!

To me the IR isn't as annoying as the typical LCD issues (off axis viewing, black detail, clouds, flashlighting etc...), but for people to say it's not there or not an issue is insane. Any honest review should at least evaluate it. Honestly, I just got sick of waiting for the new display types that will be coming out soon and settled on the 60" ST50 for $1540. If it was any more expensive I would have kept waiting.
post #43 of 756
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sonyfan View Post

The 2012 Samsung image/signal processing is vastly better than the current Panasonics.
Just a guess but it probably limits IR to the point where it's not an issue.
How carefully the break-in was done is not going to ward off IR when the signal processing is the week link in the chain.
http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-33199_7-57449881-221/samsung-plasma-wins-cnets-accidental-burn-in-test/

I saw that article too. The Samsung E6500 is also $150 more than the ST50 and according to Cnet can't get as bright. So take your pick. For me, I don't mind so much being careful about the IR. Hopefully it will get better with time.
post #44 of 756
Quote:
Originally Posted by sonyfan View Post

The 2012 Samsung image/signal processing is vastly better than the current Panasonics.
Just a guess but it probably limits IR to the point where it's not an issue.
How carefully the break-in was done is not going to ward off IR when the signal processing is the week link in the chain.
http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-33199_7-57449881-221/samsung-plasma-wins-cnets-accidental-burn-in-test/

Signal/image processing can't be used to reduce IR (except an oribiter, which many say is not very effective), it is a chemical process that occurs in all plasma panels to some degree. There is evidence from the Samsung D series that 2 panel versions were used, one of which contained a revised electrode composition (generally there is no way to determine which version you have) which is chemically different from the other. The presumably new version (aka, "ITO_less") was supposed to have significantly reduced IR, and its possible these are now the panels being used in the E series. Regardless, from what I've seen posted over the last 8 months, Samsung (D and E series) has far fewer complaints of long term IR/burn. Additionally, I'm not sure I've ever seen reports of short duration IR on a Samsung, which seems relatively common with Panasonic.
post #45 of 756
Quote:
Originally Posted by AvidHiker View Post

Signal/image processing can't be used to reduce IR (except an oribiter, which many say is not very effective), it is a chemical process that occurs in all plasma panels to some degree. There is evidence from the Samsung D series that 2 panel versions were used, one of which contained a revised electrode composition (generally there is no way to determine which version you have) which is chemically different from the other. The presumably new version (aka, "ITO_less") was supposed to have significantly reduced IR, and its possible these are now the panels being used in the E series. Regardless, from what I've seen posted over the last 8 months, Samsung (D and E series) has far fewer complaints of long term IR/burn. Additionally, I'm not sure I've ever seen reports of short duration IR on a Samsung, which seems relatively common with Panasonic.

The 2012 E8000, E490, E450 use the 'Clear Image' panel.
Is the 'Clear Image' panel the 2 panel version you are talking about
also what does "ITO_less" mean?

Only very basic info from them.
"Clear Image Panel
Samsung's new single-filter clear panel design eliminates the off-angle reflections
that cause picture blurring of images and details.
Images and text look great straight on or at any angle".
post #46 of 756
I don't think that has anything to do with IR either, like they say, it's simply to improve the picture quality and reduce reflections. If you want to learn about ITO (indium tin oxide), google it. wink.gif (in fact, if you google ITO-less, you will find the exact information I'm referring to)
post #47 of 756
Quote:
Originally Posted by AvidHiker View Post

I don't think that has anything to do with IR either, like they say, it's simply to improve the picture quality and reduce reflections. If you want to learn about ITO (indium tin oxide), google it. wink.gif (in fact, if you google ITO-less, you will find the exact information I'm referring to)


Correct sir.
ITO-less is da bomb!

02-02-2012, 03:56 PM #3703
zoyd

Re: Official Samsung PNxxD7000 and PNxxD8000 Owner's Discussion Thread

After some more research I've figured out the difference between the two files available for 59" and 64" panels, it's not a difference between the names DeepBlack and lessDeepBlack but rather ITO and ITOless. ITO refers to the inner structure of the pixels, it's an electrode within the pixel. There are also ITO-less pixels that use a different electrode structure (I know, your eyes are glazing over at this point). Anyway the major difference between ITO and ITO-less pixels is that the ITO-less ones exhibit about 1/3 less image retention. So there are two different types of larger panels in circulation right now with different IR characteristics.
post #48 of 756
I was very close to pulling the trigger on the 60st50 today from Amazon. However, the Image Retention reports from this thread have been a deal breaker for me.

I don't care if the image quality is superb, it won't be enjoyable to me if I can see distinct images on the screen. I'll notice them and I'll never un-notice them until they're gone. I also plan on using an HTPC for this, and I know that despite my best efforts to turn off the monitor and have a screen saver, at some point I'll leave the desktop on for an extended period of time just before I want to watch a movie that I'm excited about, ruining the whole experience.

I can't believe that this is a legitimate issue with a brand new television, and I can't be the only one. Deal breaker for anyone else?
post #49 of 756
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by letsgetsilly View Post

I can't believe that this is a legitimate issue with a brand new television, and I can't be the only one. Deal breaker for anyone else?

Frankly, I am about ready to return my ST50 to Amazon yet again and get the E6500 instead. It's incredibly annoying to be constantly worrying about IR. And it happens so easily. Every time I turn the TV on, the stupid "smart viera" logo gets burned in a for a few minutes. It's only on the screen for a few seconds, that's all it takes.

The advantage of the ST50 is that it can get brighter, right? Well what is the point of that if you have to turn the contrast down to avoid IR?
post #50 of 756
Hi, on another forum, somebody said that slides and scrolling bar are pretty useless for stubborn IRs on 2012 Pana's but analog static noise on Dynamic Mode make them go away in about 10 mins. Is that true? Can any owner verify this?
post #51 of 756
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartquake View Post

Hi, on another forum, somebody said that slides and scrolling bar are pretty useless for stubborn IRs on 2012 Pana's but analog static noise on Dynamic Mode make them go away in about 10 mins. Is that true? Can any owner verify this?
This is definitely not true for me.

I don't have access to analog noise but I wrote a simple script that generates digital noise. It just gives each pixel a random color. It can generate 4 or 5 frames per second. I have run this for several hours and it doesn't work any better than anything else.

Really, I have tried so many different tricks to make the IR go away. Nothing really works particularly well. It just takes a lot of time.
post #52 of 756
I got the 55ST50 and have no regrets I bought it for screen size,picture quality and price and as for IR so far so good but I don't set my picture for torch mode and used the Spears & Munsil Blue Ray
for setting up .
post #53 of 756
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by oztech View Post

I got the 55ST50 and have no regrets I bought it for screen size,picture quality and price and as for IR so far so good but I don't set my picture for torch mode and used the Spears & Munsil Blue Ray
for setting up .

Are you sure? Check it on a solid-color background. You might not see it during regular viewing but I bet you have some IR. Of course if you don't notice and it doesn't bother you, then obviously that's fine. But it does bother some people.
post #54 of 756
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartquake View Post

Hi, on another forum, somebody said that slides and scrolling bar are pretty useless for stubborn IRs on 2012 Pana's but analog static noise on Dynamic Mode make them go away in about 10 mins. Is that true? Can any owner verify this?
I've done both.
Its quite easy to get analog static noise - just tune to an analog channel with the TV tuner to one that doesn't exist.
But I found using the bright white scrolling bar or a full screen bright white image to work the best.

There is also an "aging" function in the service menu of the TV that can select between a bunch of test patterns including full white screen and the scrolling bar too - thats what I end up using now if I notice any IR particularly from the word "Menu" from the picture menu in the upper left corner of the screen.

The only time I can only notice any slight IR on my ST50 (about 10 days old now) is on the darkest gray slides, not with regular video content. And the only IR I have seen is from the bright white text "Menu" from the picture menu, none so far from channel logos or black bars on movies.
I recommend using the menu system as little as possible during the critical first 100-200 active hours when the set seems more susceptible to longer term IR from that.
Also run the slides or the aging function white or scrolling bar screen periodically in between regular TV use during the critical first 100-200 hours to keep any early IR at bay.
post #55 of 756
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joxer View Post

The only time I can only notice any slight IR on my ST50 (about 10 days old now) is on the darkest gray slides, not with regular video content. And the only IR I have seen is from the bright white text "Menu" from the picture menu, none so far from channel logos or black bars on movies.

What tends to do it for me is anything bright white on a dark background. So I have definitely seen the same IR as you, the "Menu" text. Semi-transparent channel logos are fine. Opaque channel logos are also ok as long as they are dark. It's the bright white stuff that's trouble. I have not had any problems with black bars on movies either.
post #56 of 756
Quote:
Originally Posted by vanillacoffee View Post

What tends to do it for me is anything bright white on a dark background. So I have definitely seen the same IR as you, the "Menu" text. Semi-transparent channel logos are fine. Opaque channel logos are also ok as long as they are dark. It's the bright white stuff that's trouble. I have not had any problems with black bars on movies either.
Yep - exactly, bright white text.
The only bright white text channel logo I have noticed so far is on Encore movies.
I wish Panasonic would have used more of a transparent menu system like Samsung has.
post #57 of 756
The ESPN logo in the lower right corner of the bottom line.
post #58 of 756
Quote:
The only bright white text channel logo I have noticed so far is on Encore movies...
Quote:
The ESPN logo in the lower right corner of the bottom line.


Combination of the Encore HD logo (from a SINGLE MOVIE ), AND the ESPN 2 logo (from Mike & Mike), created a mash-up on our ST50 that has remained stubborn as all get-out.

After several weeks, including 2 weeks of Very Careful Babying, the other Persistent Images we had - Uverse "GUIDE," and the "M" from the Uverse time display (up whenever the Guide is) - have All-But-Disappeared, although the area where the "Guide" heading shows up seems fussy.

The Encore/ESPN mash-up is MOSTLY gone, but it can STILL be made out, however faintly, on many advertisements that feature a largely white or light-colored background. Frankly, most people would not notice it even then: I, of course, happen to KNOW where it was / is.... eek.gif


To be fair, this panel does seem to have grown a BIT less prone to Quick Onset, Medium (or longer....) Duration IR, as compared to, say, roughly the 250 - 400 hour usage period.
Currently, Quick Onset IR (that is, IR from images that are NOT on the screen for an extended time period), appears to have reverted NEARLY to the "Short Duration" variety that we are accustomed to on our other plasma sets.

Am hoping that this trend will continue as the panel further ages - but am still taking precautions, just in case....
post #59 of 756
No such thing as burn in imo. Only really persistent IR in my opinion, & then only if you have abused your set imo (videogames, web browsing, sports, news, television stations with logos, entering the menu etc.), in my opinion only.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chunon View Post

I've never had any IR problems with my 2011 Panasonic either. Alot of opinions being stated as facts here. For every person having an IR problem I bet there are 10 plus that have had no problems what so ever. But to condemn a whole line based on a couple of bad experiences is not cool.

I know, imo! I really don't like it when people state their opinions as facts either, in my opinion. Everyone should be- & this is in my opinion only- but every one of us should be identifying ALL of our opinions by following each opinionated statement with an "in my opinion" (or appropriate acronym) disclaimer. Otherwise, there is no possible way for an educated adult who learned the difference between a statement of fact & one of opinion in grade school, there is no possible way for them to tell which is which, in my opinion!

Think how much nicer it would be to read professional product reviews, if they remembered to add "imo", "imho", "imnsho", or "ymmv" after every sentence in the article, imo. But unfortunately even they continue to state their opinions as facts, imo!

Stop stating opinions as facts imo!
post #60 of 756
Well, if you see IR on your screen then that's a fact not an opinion. When somebody sees the IR after several weeks of doing every recommended fix and it's still there that's a fact. It may be only his fact but a fact non the less. That's why people come here. To find out if a specific TV has problems. The obvious question from the threads concerning the 2012 Panasonic Plasmas is, is this IR concern a by-product of the new for 2012 panel? Question number 2 is why do some have the problem and some don't? Quality control or just a few poor panels? The die hard Panny folks cam poo poo the IR concern but those of us in the market really do care about this. I've never seen IR mentioned in a professional review so that too adds to the confusion. Did they just not have the TV long enough or is the problem really very very random?
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