Panasonic ST50 image retention, please help! - Page 14

Originally Posted by vilago 

i've tried it. it doesn't work any better than normal fullscreen content. trust me, i'm not making this up there isn't any "sputtering" effect. first hand experience talking here.
just watch normal programming and if it isn't gone within 1-2 weeks of normal viewing then for all intents and purposes it will be there in some form or another for the life of the set. it's the uneven pixel aging that is the biggest problem. which is why it is imperitive to allow the set to age in the beginning.

Originally Posted by Big Lebowski 

As a last resort I tried full screen white image to remove that burned logo. I ran it for two hours and it nearly cleared it. Then I ran it another three hours but it did not make any difference. So in the end it is nearly gone but I can still find it so it is better avoid channels with bright logos even after 1000 hours use.
I have contacted Panasonic support and first person told me this is abnormal but second level engineer says it could be within specs. I ask them to send engineer to confirm but they said it cannot be done on site because they need dismantle it first to be able to evaluate picture...
If they found it faulty they will change the screen or what ever part they think is faulty but they will not send me a new unit, great.
It is confusing how some peoples here report having IR and burn-in problem even after going through several units and some never seen any. Sound like there are good and bad units but then again considering some have tried several units from different batches it does not sound possible.
I cannot remember seeing anyone who has been suffering from these problems reporting that they have found a new unit without this problem or that their set was serviced and problem is gone. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
I really don't know what to do.

Originally Posted by allWhiteMeat 

Update:
I went into Best Buy, talked with the floor manager and had the TV replaced. Set it up last night, put it through its paces and here is my conclusion.
Old tv build date April 2012, new TV October 2012
rapid onset IR- old set would retain any still image onscreen for more than 5 seconds, i.e., HDMI labels, stationary objects ect ect. New tv shows no sign of.this issue. This panel is only about 5 hours old, and some people say the problem got worse before it got better. Will keep an eye out for it.
Vertical Bands, right side of screen- old tv had 2 distinct bands, visible in most solid color backgrounds (every commercial out there). New tv, none present
Dirty Screen Effect (DSE)- didnt realize the old tv had this issue until I saw the new one do the IR sweep. Cant describe the difference, but the new TV is clean, white, and consistent during the IR sweep. Old tv (by memory) looked dusty dirty during the sweep.
Electric Hum during bright scenes- no change. I tested for all external variables and interference. I the tv though. Not as bad as the whine old CRT's used to have, but I hear it still. Might consider some fabric on the wall behind the TV to cut down on the echo/projection of sound.
Green sparkles: old tv had green sparkles in any dark colors past brightness 58. The repairman and repair call center said this is not normal, however, the new tv is doing the exact same thing. My LG 55lm7600 is broken and they will be here monday to look at it. Im going to have this guy look at this issue again. I requested a new repairman as the last guy was more.concerned with watching CNN on election day that looking at my TV. Ill update you, but I assume this is probably a normal (ish) function of the tv. From a great enough distance you dont see it, but the effect is still felt. If my wife can feel it, its happening.
Line bleed- hard to describe effect, but I saw it constantly, was hard to accept that it was normal. Repairman said line bleed is something Id have to live with to a degree, but it was excessive i tbought. As it turns out, the new tv has like 10% of the line bleed the first one did. Its there if you really look hard to find it, ut I in no way see it in regular programming anymore. Im extremely pleased with the improvement and assume this is what was considered normal mild line bleed in the official reviews.
Test patterns: i never knew what test patterns the old tv failed or why, just that it did. The repair guy told me it failed and I believed him. I will update this monday as well if the repairman for my LG set has anything to add.
Pixel Orbiter Random Functionality: using the factory firmware on the first set, I found that the pixel orbiter was not functioning consistently in "size 2" mode (no trimming of borders). I did this by placing a small spot of silly putty on a fixed point in the image. It never moved on the first set unless I switched back and forth between size 1 & 2. After switching back and forth and observing I saw the image move relative to the silly putty. I still need to perform this check, but Im going to assume its working for now.
Conclusion:
The new set looks brighter and more clean/crisp. This could be from the panel being so young again, or the old panel just stunk. Its not so bright clean or "poppy" as my LCD, but its alot better than the original. Without the rapid onset IR occurring Im hoping the set will not be susceptible to burn like the first. Havent played Borderlands 2 yet (source of original burn), nor am I going to baby this panel for a hundred hours. Im going to use it like my brother did on his 55ST30 and expect the same results. In addition, the guys at best buy pricematched the set and threw in an extra 20bucks for my troubles, so i used the 80dollars to buy halo4 and some candy for the kids.
Its fair to say the last tv had aome issues that were addressed in the later production runs. Not sure what firmware Im using, but with an Oct build Im assuming its the 1.2version
Good luck all, and thanks for reading

Originally Posted by olyteddy 

I've been following this thread (non-plasma owner, sorry) and I have to ask: If the solution is that simple, why the hell don't the panel makers pre age their panels? I mean if you're going to pay a couple of KiloBucks for a high end device, shouldn't you expect it to just work? I believe you guys when you say plasma has great PQ but I still can't convince myself that it's worth the hassle.

Originally Posted by vilago 

sure by that mentality if you pay 1 million dollars for a house you just expect everything to be in perfect condition with no work or input. or buy a used farrari for 100,000 and expect there to be zero problems or maintenance. the truth is, sometimes the more expensive items require MORE effort than the cheap stuff (even though these tvs are priced very competitively imo)
these tvs require something like 500+ hours to age. just think about how much that would cost a manufacturing plant? time=money plus these things don't use a negligible amount of power therefore they will just ship the units out and let the user deal with it. the "aging" thing seems to be a hot topic but in my experience at least has a moderate effect on IR. plus, what GOOD reason do you have NOT to do it?

Originally Posted by olyteddy 

If I bought a new house or a new Ferrari I would expect it to work properly. Why would you age a plasma for 500 hours if it only has a 'moderate effect'? Most of the other posts claim the amount of aging to be around 100 hours or less. But if aging isn't the answer to IR, then what is? I for one believe that crippling your viewing options isn't a viable solution either.

Originally Posted by allWhiteMeat 

I just posted my response to this stuff. Wanted to point out my experience and summation directly to you. Obviously some sets are good some are bad. Some people have a hard time admitting that because they feel their one set out of the thousands of sets out there is fine. The new.set I just got shows vast improvement in some areas. Its been one day so things could always change. When my brother came to help me carry the old set to the store he remarked on how bad the rapid IR was. Like switching the HDMI input back and forth left a mark. Went away after a few minutes. My new set has no issue so far. I mean none. I dont remember if the first set was the same in the beginning, but this one is better than the first one was in the end.
It still buzzes, and its not outside interference or the wall outlet. Ive troubleshot it to death

Originally Posted by Big Lebowski 

Thanks for posting this reply. You are the first one I've seen confirming that replacement set was much better and that it cured IR problem. It would be nice if you could report if IR is still gone after you have used it over 100 hours. Mine started IR problem after first 100 hours.
Still your new set seems promising since no vertical bands, DSE or line bleed. Mine has those three features too and they were there from the day one and no change in over 1000 hours of use.
Seems that you got very recently build set. I wonder if they have done some improvements in latest batches or were you just lucky to get good unit (or perhaps they send you a golden sample).
Descripition of your previous set matches to my set precisely. Basically any bright objet (like any bright TV OSD) leave a mark that clears out within couple of minutes.
I wish I could have my set replaced with the new one but it seems impossible. Only possibility is to take it to repair shop and let them first dismantle it and then evaluate image and see if they think it is within specs or not.

Originally Posted by Pyrophoric 

This whole thing seems absurd. 500 hours to break-in? I agree that at this point the manufacturer should break-in and the consumers are making the issue much worse by playing it down.
If I left this thing on for 14 hours a day, that would be over a month to use it. Think about that, you buy a TV and essentially should not use it fully for an entire month, longer if you clock less break-in hours per day.
I just pulled the trigger on a GT50 which is ready for pickup tonight... I am honestly thinking about initiating a return immediately. I may sacrifice a SMALL amount of image quality for the piece of mind of never having to worry about IR or worse yet, full burn-in.

Originally Posted by vilago 

100 hours is too short. 200 is better but really you want more than 500 before you really notice a difference. this is also why calibrators recommend waiting this long before calibrating. really, what is a few hundred hours out of thousands anyway? if you have a problem with it then get LCD that's why they were invented, for people who don't care about picture quality and "just want it to work"

Originally Posted by Pyrophoric 

This whole thing seems absurd. 500 hours to break-in? I agree that at this point the manufacturer should break-in and the consumers are making the issue much worse by playing it down.
If I left this thing on for 14 hours a day, that would be over a month to use it. Think about that, you buy a TV and essentially should not use it fully for an entire month, longer if you clock less break-in hours per day.
I just pulled the trigger on a GT50 which is ready for pickup tonight... I am honestly thinking about initiating a return immediately. I may sacrifice a SMALL amount of image quality for the piece of mind of never having to worry about IR or worse yet, full burn-in.

Originally Posted by chunon 

I would witness it for yourself, many have zero IR issues. You can listen to the mass hysteria or take some of the reports here with a grain of salt. Just my 2 cents

Originally Posted by rogo 

I did about 0 seconds of break in...
... and have 0 image-retention issues.

Originally Posted by Big Lebowski 

Thanks for posting this reply. You are the first one I've seen confirming that replacement set was much better and that it cured IR problem. It would be nice if you could report if IR is still gone after you have used it over 100 hours. Mine started IR problem after first 100 hours.
Still your new set seems promising since no vertical bands, DSE or line bleed. Mine has those three features too and they were there from the day one and no change in over 1000 hours of use.
Seems that you got very recently build set. I wonder if they have done some improvements in latest batches or were you just lucky to get good unit (or perhaps they send you a golden sample).
Descripition of your previous set matches to my set precisely. Basically any bright objet (like any bright TV OSD) leave a mark that clears out within couple of minutes.
I wish I could have my set replaced with the new one but it seems impossible. Only possibility is to take it to repair shop and let them first dismantle it and then evaluate image and see if they think it is within specs or not.

Originally Posted by markrubin 

posts deleted: a member given a time out for a few days
in the future: report a problematic post: please do not quote or respond to it: you guys should know better

Originally Posted by RandyWalters 

You're right - i do know better. I apologize.

Originally Posted by TennisFreak 

I can totally see someone who constantly watches sports, movies with black bars, or games (with huds fixed on screen) all the time without watching some regular viewing content that entirely fills the screen getting some severe IR or even burn in.
People like this of course are going to get pissed, blame the tv, and assume that their viewing habits are normal and its not their fault.
In reality these people are at fault for not researching the technology behind the purchase they made and realizing that plasma is not suited for their intended usage model.

Originally Posted by HLdan 

I can't say that your post is being fair. Those viewing habits you mentioned ARE normal viewing habits. For the most part, unless you're watching Blu-ray content or movies ordered through Netflix or the like you're going to experience logos that cause IR. Even those Blu-rays and Netflix movies have letterbox and some of the more recent movies such as The Artist which is a silent movie in 4:3. Normal viewing habits are turning the TV on and watching it, period. Hitting the Zoom button to stretch out the screen to avoid the black bars, trying to find channels without station logos, turning down the contrast during the "break-in" period, having to educate your entire family on how to use a Plasma by doing all of the above and knowing they will do just the opposite when your back is turned IS NOT NORMAL.
It IS exactly the manufacturer's fault, why should the customer be blamed? It's not like the TV stations give a damn about your TV getting IR from those ridiculous logos. Plasma technology should be built better to withstand such programming. We're almost into 2013. Plasma has been out long enough and the technology should've been improved.

Originally Posted by HLdan 

I can't say that your post is being fair. Those viewing habits you mentioned ARE normal viewing habits. For the most part, unless you're watching Blu-ray content or movies ordered through Netflix or the like you're going to experience logos that cause IR. Even those Blu-rays and Netflix movies have letterbox and some of the more recent movies such as The Artist which is a silent movie in 4:3. Normal viewing habits are turning the TV on and watching it, period. Hitting the Zoom button to stretch out the screen to avoid the black bars, trying to find channels without station logos, turning down the contrast during the "break-in" period, having to educate your entire family on how to use a Plasma by doing all of the above and knowing they will do just the opposite when your back is turned IS NOT NORMAL.
It IS exactly the manufacturer's fault, why should the customer be blamed? It's not like the TV stations give a damn about your TV getting IR from those ridiculous logos. Plasma technology should be built better to withstand such programming. We're almost into 2013. Plasma has been out long enough and the technology should've been improved.

Originally Posted by allWhiteMeat 

Green sparkles: old tv had green sparkles in any dark colors past brightness 58. The repairman and repair call center said this is not normal, however, the new tv is doing the exact same thing. My LG 55lm7600 is broken and they will be here monday to look at it. Im going to have this guy look at this issue again. I requested a new repairman as the last guy was more.concerned with watching CNN on election day that looking at my TV. Ill update you, but I assume this is probably a normal (ish) function of the tv. From a great enough distance you dont see it, but the effect is still felt. If my wife can feel it, its happening.

Originally Posted by chunon 

Which calibrator recommends a 500 hour break in ? 150 to 200 hours is generally recommended.

Originally Posted by vilago 

http://www.tweakguides.com/HDTV_14.html
go down to initial steps, it's the second bullet.
I'm not saying treat the thing like a bomb that's about to go off for 500 hours then let loose, i'm saying treat it like a sheet of glass for 100-200 hours then gradually let up until 500 hours then "be mindful" after that. quite simple and it worked for me.

Originally Posted by HLdan 

I can't say that your post is being fair. Those viewing habits you mentioned ARE normal viewing habits. For the most part, unless you're watching Blu-ray content or movies ordered through Netflix or the like you're going to experience logos that cause IR. Even those Blu-rays and Netflix movies have letterbox and some of the more recent movies such as The Artist which is a silent movie in 4:3. Normal viewing habits are turning the TV on and watching it, period. Hitting the Zoom button to stretch out the screen to avoid the black bars, trying to find channels without station logos, turning down the contrast during the "break-in" period, having to educate your entire family on how to use a Plasma by doing all of the above and knowing they will do just the opposite when your back is turned IS NOT NORMAL.
It IS exactly the manufacturer's fault, why should the customer be blamed? It's not like the TV stations give a damn about your TV getting IR from those ridiculous logos. Plasma technology should be built better to withstand such programming. We're almost into 2013. Plasma has been out long enough and the technology should've been improved.

Originally Posted by chunon 

I guess that is one viewpoint but sounds pretty conservative definitely not the generally recognized recommendation. You do not need to wait 500 hours to have you set pro calibrated despite what Tweak TV says.

Originally Posted by vilago 

What I do is keep the settings on "standard" mode when watching tv or playing video games where a possiblility of burn in exists, and full brightness thx/cinema or calibrated custom mode when watching my WDTV, blu ray or netflix. I understand that some people have problems regardless of what they do but for the record this worked for me after i had exchanged a set for burn in from NOT following this method. if you keep the tv on standard mode and still get burn in either you are lying to yourself or the tv really is defective.
I get that 500 hours is too "conservative" but do you really want to have to pay to send someone in to calibrate the set twice?