PANASONIC PT-RZ470 FULL HD LED LASER - Page 3

I've had 3x different DLP projectors in the last 10 years. 2 of them were the NEC PC portable DLP projectors ( which I assume had 2x-4x CW speed). My family and I have not seen/noticed andy RBE at all. Even with our relatives and friends watched them without complaining a single RBE issue. Wow, people have such sensitive eyes? Really?

I sort of feel the same way. I've had an Optoma HD80 for five years and have shown movies to countless people. Not once has anyone ever said anything about RBE. Granted, this is a 6x speed projector. I recall when I got my first DLP, an Optoma HD70, a 4x speed 720p projector. I remember seeing rainbows and getting a kind of sick-to-my stomach feeling. After a couple of weeks, that all passed. I think it's a matter of your brain getting used to it. I love DLP.

Just wondering:

Is LED the next step for Panasonic?

Yes, REALLY!

I had a very expensive Optoma DLP projector, great picture. I started reading about RBE on this forum. I would say what are they complaining about? I don't see anything?

Then, members here would describe in detail how to look for it.

I finally kept looking and saw it. Hooray wow! There it is just like forum users said it was.

I should have never learned how to see it, because after you discover RBE it will forever ruin your viewing experience to keep looking for it during shows.

I think DLP with no RBE would be the best picture. I will buy a new LED if this problem is solved:)

Thats a good story, its almost exactly the same as how I discovered RBE.

The only difference for me was I realized I had been seeing it all the time from the beginning but I never knew what was going on. every time I moved my head the colours I saw was actually RBE, I thought it was something wrong with my eyes or brain.

Just cant go anywhere near a DLP projector today, love the image but hate the RBE.

that is exactly how I first came to know what it was. I though the tV was broken! lol

Yes I hate to see even expensive DLP projectors at art gallery and museum exhibitions, the RBE is shocking!

Viewsonic makes pretty good projectors as well. I can attest to that owning a Pro8200 DLP and a JVC RS-45. The Pro8200 is a bargain for the PQ you get, even though it has a few minor issues as all projectors do in the sub-$1000 price range.

If Viewsonic came out with a new model and it was reviewed well, I would not hesitate to consider it as the VS brand is fine.

Interesting, but how does it work?

The +10 and -10 deg mirrors would send the images in very different directions.

Perhaps another mirror converges them almost but not quite together for 3D, and fully together for 2D.

Otherwise I wonder how 2D wouldn't be handicapped by a 50% light loss.

IMO, I believe most people see RBE but have not been trained to either look for it or had the phenomenon shown to them or some just ignore/deal with it as "normal."
Once you see RBE, you can not unsee it.

Laser DLP? That would be something worth to see.

I can see RBE, and could see it from the time I got my first projector with a 1X color wheel back in 2000. That being said, it doesn't bother me. To see it, you have to do something which people generally don't do while watching a movie, and that is to dart your eyes around quickly. That, and it has to be a high contrast scene to really see the effect. But as long as I'm focusing on the movie, which is what people do naturally, I don't see it. What gets me is nobody ever complained about scan lines on CRT televisions. If you darted your eyes fast enough, the picture would break up on you. But then again, those screens were so small it was difficult to do.

What bothers me is misconvergence. And that's an artifact you can see while watching a movie normally. Single chip DLPs cannot have misconvergence, so I've owned only DLP projectors for 10 years and counting.

I do have high hopes for LED projectors making RBE a non-issue so that we don't have engage in these discussions any more. I've heard numbers as high as an equivalent 48x color wheel bandied about, so we'll see (or rather, we hopefully won't see).

The various times I have seen RBE has been done so by watching as one usually does. I have never even tried to dart my eyes around quickly. RBE sensitive viewers certainly dont have to try and see this artifact by watching in some odd means like darting your eyes around.

My projector is supposed to be 6x, and I can see RBE. It has never caused me headaches, and I've been kind enough to never point it out to anyone else watching. I agree, once you know it is there, you can never "unknow" it. While I wish it wasn't there, I don't see it so much during a movie that it bothers me. I do kind of disagree that you don't "dart your eyes around" during a movie. It depends on what is going on. I have certainly changed my focus from one area of the screen to another because "someone came in a door" or some character off to the side suddenly does something significant, and you change your focus to go see what it is. For me, if there is some bright vertical light in between where my focus was and where it changes to, like a candle or cracked door with light coming in, that is when I'll see it. But I can go through several movies without seeing it, or at least no longer pay enough attention that it registers. All that said, I still look forward to a 20x plus colour wheel which will reduce the effect far enough that I doubt I'll notice it even if I try.

I was talking about darting your eyes around in some abnormal way just to TRY and see RBE which is what I thought he was talking about.

Well said. Before I owned the DLP projectors, I had also owned a CRT projector. Even with a certified dealer installed the projector for me, the mis-convergence of the projector was bad enough every time I turned on the projector, I could see rainbow (green, blue, white, red colors) around the edges of the screen. I had to fine tune it every time I watch a movie. And then, when I looked at the LCD projectors, oh my god, the picture was soft and the screen door effect was so overwhelmed that I decided to stick with the DLP tech and I have not regretted since then. The PQ is sharp, clear and vivid which always gives the image a pop out. Even my top of the line Samsung 59D8000 Plasma TV has no match for my current DLP projector which costs the same price.

And I agree with you. My comment was actually directed to DanLW.

Edit: Now that I read it, saying "directed to" sounds like it is personal or something. That was not my intent. Sorry if anyone misunderstood. Perhaps I should have said "in response to".
Edited by sstephen - 7/13/12 at 8:23am

Any word that these will be at CEDIA?

Another video:

I do agree with you. But....a lot of people have the "once you see it, you can't unsee it" mentality. I myself am unfortunately one of those people. RBE is the single most bothersome aspect of DLP to me personally. The most troublesome aspect is that even at the mega cineplex, using multi thousand dollar DLP projectors, I'm able to see separation artifacts (and yes, I do realize these are 3 chip DLP projectors, whre RBE isn't "possible"). Not classic RBE, but a different aspect to the picture that noticeable to me.

Once again, this is a personal problem I have (lol), and I wish I didn't see it at all. There's something about digital/DLP/LED and the "pulsing" that's going on that I'm picking up on...maybe a frequency based thing? I even saw some sort of framey/split looking effect on a JVC HD250. Yet I've never noticed any artifacts whatsoever with my epson 6500ub/LCD. Of course, the only problem there is lack of black level and color.

Nothing other to say really, just 'venting' about my personal quirks

Are you sure you're not confusing this with DLP projectors using color cycling LEDs? Though those have much faster effective cycling rates than color wheels, yes, I even see something strange going on -- not color separation, but the image kind of 'breaks apart' & flashes when my eyes dart around the screen. I saw this with a Runco LED DLP projector at a local Magnolia, & was very surprised. I don't see how there could be any such artifacts in a 3 DLP system... those should essentially behave like your LCD/LCOS projectors.

And, yes, I'm extremely sensitive to RBE. Maybe some people's eyes just operate differently; i.e., those who are sensitive to RBE just dart their eyes faster? Because of super muscles in their eyes?

Also a function of screen size & viewing distance. On my 120" screen where I sit up pretty close, my eyes dart quite a bit. I'd imagine the RBE would be less significant if I sat further away or had a smaller screen.

http://www.tomshardware.com/news/pixelworks-soc-ARM-3D-projector-LED,16321.html

Pixelworks Launches SoC for Next-Gen LED, 3D Projectors

Pixelworks has said it has begun shipping a new SoC that is targeting next-generation, mainstream LCD or DLP projectors for the education, business and home theater segments.

The Topaz SoC supports 1080p and WUXGA (1920 x1200) resolutions as well as standard and non-standard 3D content, including 3D format decoding with a universal 3D glasses interface.

The SoC also comes with a video decoder that supports 8/10 bit analog inputs or HDMI/DVI digital inputs (HDMI 1.3, 1.4 3D), a USB 2.0 host controller, Ethernet MAC, an on-screen display menu controller and an ARM9 processor to enable projector vendors to use customized applications.

"Current projector technology is undergoing a significant transition as more diverse and sophisticated applications become available, creating expanded opportunities for our newest family of products," said Pixelworks senior vice president Graham Loveridge in a prepared statement.

"The evolution in illumination engines and light source technology is migrating from traditional lamp-based light sources to LED and laser technologies, which will enable a lower cost of ownership as well as more compact and portable designs."

I pretty sure the mega cineplexes aren't using LED based projectors. There's not way (at least to my knowledge) that LED based projectors are bright enough for commercial cinema applications. So I was assuming they are just really high end/expensive 3 chip DLP lamp based projectors. Like I was saying, it's not color breakup, but something else I can't put my finger on. It may be a frequency thing and the mirrors of the dlp's or something. Also, being at the movies, the screen is usually huge, and you are forced to dart your eyes around

All I know is that when I'm at a theater, I can always tell if they are using a digital projector or not by the way it "feels". It's really bizarre.

The edge blending feature is something I've wanted for a long time, 3 of these with a monster PC setup would be as close as you can get to a hollodeck right now.

Are you talking about misconvergence, where a white line on the screen looks more like a green/white/red line? I have seen this in the cinema, and it is annoying. But it's not native to the disply technology, because LCD projectors have this problem also. I remember seeing a James Bond movie in a theater powered by a DLP projector. In one scene, a character is wearing a black shirt with white vertical stripes. Except on screen it looked like green/white/red stripes. This isn't the DLP projector's fault, it's the fault of the theater for not paying to have the projector properly maintained. I'd be shocked if a $30K Christie projector had no way for a maintenance tech to perform a panel alignment.

Which begs the question... how long between when manufacturers get their hands on this to the time we are able to buy affordable LED 1080p projectors?
Edited by DanLW - 8/6/12 at 12:02pm

I don't think processing chips are the holdup in solid state light sources.

I believe you can even perform panel alignments on low-end projectors like the Panasonic PT-AE900U. It outlines the procedure in the service manual... wonder if you can do it with other LCD projectors. Though I hear something about chips being 'glued' so that they're held in place after initial alignment. Don't think that's the way it is on the PT-AE900U anyway given the instructions for panel alignment in the service manual.

Not misconvergence......it's literally an RBE 'type' of effect. It's hard to describe. All I know is that there's a frequency/breakup/split look to the picture if I dart my eyes around. I have no idea what it is. I'm a stickler when it come to convergence, so that's not it.

That's exactly what I'd describe the effect was when I saw the Runco LED DLP. But you may be right about LED DLPs not being installed in theaters due to brightness... I just don't know.

The picture did break up into what felt like multiple images when I darted my eyes around w/ the Runco. But they weren't really different colors, like w/ color wheel DLPs. It was mildly annoying but I could probably live with it, unlike color wheel DLPs.