AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › 2 Channel Audio › Yes you CAN hear jitter!
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Yes you CAN hear jitter!

post #1 of 134
6/19/12 at 1:37pm
Thread Starter 
Yes you CAN hear jitter!

And it's bad for the sound of your main stereo system.

It's hot here in Chicago today; 88F in the house (fans on!); outside it's 92F (down from 94F an hour ago).

So I thought: don't run any extra gear today; copied a bunch of stereo .flac files (16/44.1 quality rips from my best CD discs) to my trusty external USB HDD.

Played it via my new 2012 Panasonic DMP BDT500 blu-ray player with these combos:

1. Using the DAC(s) inside the BDT500 player; output via the BDT500's rear 7.1 RCA outs via two RCA cables (length not that important as it's an analog signal being carried).

2. Using an external Bel Canto DAC3 via a single 7' digital coax cable for the signal in S/PDIF format.

3. Using an external Benchmark DAC1/HDR via a single 7' digital coax cable for the signal in S/PDIF format.

4. Using same external Benchmark DAC1/HDR via a single 2' digital coax cable for the signal in S/PDIF format.

My impressions/opinions:

1. The BDT500 player is one sweet player for top sound quality, both figuratively and literally. smile.gif

2. My external Bel Canto DAC3 has a slight "solid state" sound; noticeable in that I didn't find myself tapping my foot (tonality not as good as with the BDT500's DAC), and perhaps most noticeably with transient triangle and cymbal sounds. Time to sell the DAC3.

3. My external Benchmark DAC1/HDR is the equal of the BDT500 player; or close enough that it's not worth worrying about. smile.gif

4. Using a single 2' digital coax cable for the signal in S/PDIF format gives same result as with my external Bel Canto DAC3. Probably slightly worse with the 2' cable.

There's also a recent/short AVS thread on "Coaxial Audio: Special Cable?" at http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1412447

My own personal preference for RCA interconnect cables (either analog or digital) is the reasonable http://www.bluejeancable.com/store/digital-audio/index.htm
(fixed address)

I see zero reason to spend more for an interconnect cable than the above no matter how into high end audio you are.

It isn't just the RCA connectors used, *everything* in the circuit affects impedance.

That ref that amirm gave is worth reading if only for the impedance match/mismatch explanation: http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue14/spdif.htm
Edited by OtherSongs - 6/19/12 at 1:56pm
Reply
Reply

AVS Top Picks

post #2 of 134
6/19/12 at 2:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by OtherSongs View Post

Yes you CAN hear jitter!
And it's bad for the sound of your main stereo system.
It's hot here in Chicago today; 88F in the house (fans on!); outside it's 92F (down from 94F an hour ago).
So I thought: don't run any extra gear today; copied a bunch of stereo .flac files (16/44.1 quality rips from my best CD discs) to my trusty external USB HDD.
Played it via my new 2012 Panasonic DMP BDT500 blu-ray player with these combos:
1. Using the DAC(s) inside the BDT500 player; output via the BDT500's rear 7.1 RCA outs via two RCA cables (length not that important as it's an analog signal being carried).
2. Using an external Bel Canto DAC3 via a single 7' digital coax cable for the signal in S/PDIF format.
3. Using an external Benchmark DAC1/HDR via a single 7' digital coax cable for the signal in S/PDIF format.
4. Using same external Benchmark DAC1/HDR via a single 2' digital coax cable for the signal in S/PDIF format.
My impressions/opinions:
1. The BDT500 player is one sweet player for top sound quality, both figuratively and literally. smile.gif
2. My external Bel Canto DAC3 has a slight "solid state" sound; noticeable in that I didn't find myself tapping my foot (tonality not as good as with the BDT500's DAC), and perhaps most noticeably with transient triangle and cymbal sounds. Time to sell the DAC3.
3. My external Benchmark DAC1/HDR is the equal of the BDT500 player; or close enough that it's not worth worrying about. smile.gif
4. Using a single 2' digital coax cable for the signal in S/PDIF format gives same result as with my external Bel Canto DAC3. Probably slightly worse with the 2' cable.
There's also a recent/short AVS thread on "Coaxial Audio: Special Cable?" at http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1412447
My own personal preference for RCA interconnect cables (either analog or digital) is the reasonable http://www.bluejeancable.com/store/digital-audio/index.htm
(fixed address)
I see zero reason to spend more for an interconnect cable than the above no matter how into high end audio you are.
It isn't just the RCA connectors used, *everything* in the circuit affects impedance.
That ref that amirm gave is worth reading if only for the impedance match/mismatch explanation: http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue14/spdif.htm

Looks to me like a large collection of exceptional claims with no support whatsoever, other than a badly-written article.
Reply
Reply
post #3 of 134
6/20/12 at 6:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by OtherSongs View Post

Yes you CAN hear jitter!

How do you know that any sound differences you think you heard were due to different amounts of jitter? Did you measure the jitter with an audio analyzer?

--Ethan
Reply
Reply
post #4 of 134
6/20/12 at 10:20am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethan Winer View Post

How do you know that any sound differences you think you heard were due to different amounts of jitter? Did you measure the jitter with an audio analyzer?

I did not use any measurement tools to determine presence of jitter.

The only difference in the #3 vs #4 setups/tests, in my OP, was the length of the digital coax interconnect carrying the S\PDIF signal. Namely 7' vs 2'

I was fairly surprised that the difference in sound quality was more than just subtle.

Anyway I took the writeup at http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue14/spdif.htm at face value.

So if not jitter then what?

Again the cable length was the only key difference; namely 7' vs 2'

Yes I know I did a sighted test, which is suspect.

So if the sound difference really is there, what else can you think of besides jitter?

All ears. smile.gif

Meaning please give a thoughtful response in kind; don't just attack some short phrase from my above words.
Reply
Reply
post #5 of 134
6/20/12 at 10:28am
300
Reply
Reply
post #6 of 134
6/20/12 at 10:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by OtherSongs View Post

I did not use any measurement tools to determine presence of jitter.

That wouldn't be a problem if you had done something that was reliable.
Quote:
The only difference in the #3 vs #4 setups/tests, in my OP, was the length of the digital coax interconnect carrying the S\PDIF signal. Namely 7' vs 2'

It is hard to take someone doing tests like this where the difference should not even be measurable, as anything but a sign of gullibility.
Quote:
I was fairly surprised that the difference in sound quality was more than just subtle.

Two words: Sighted evaluation.
Quote:
Anyway I took the writeup at http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue14/spdif.htm at face value.

The first question that crossed my mind when I read it was who is more gullible - the guy who wrote it or anybody who believed it. Maybe the author was given a writing project scored on how many audiophile myths he could pack into the fewest words.
Quote:
So if not jitter then what?

You said sighted evaluation, right. Well, that's what!
Again the cable length was the only key difference; namely 7' vs 2'
Quote:
Yes I know I did a sighted test, which is suspect.

Saying that sighted listening tests for jitter like the ones you did are suspect is like saying that Greenland is north of Cuba. ;-)
Quote:
So if the sound difference really is there, what else can you think of besides jitter?

Most likely answer: The sound differences were there alright, they were right there in your imagination.

If you repeated them as time-synched, level-matched, properly blinded tests, the results are quite predictably: random guessing.
Quote:
All ears. smile.gif

If you were really interested in proving something with your ears, you would do things just a tad different.
Quote:
Meaning please give a thoughtful response in kind; don't just attack some short phrase from my above words.

Thanks for the reference to the piece from Positive Feedback. I had forgotten how far out-to-lunch some of their stuff is.
Reply
Reply
post #7 of 134
6/20/12 at 11:13am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

That wouldn't be a problem if you had done something that was reliable.
It is hard to take someone doing tests like this where the difference should not even be measurable, as anything but a sign of gullibility.
Two words: Sighted evaluation.
The first question that crossed my mind when I read it was who is more gullible - the guy who wrote it or anybody who believed it. Maybe the author was given a writing project scored on how many audiophile myths he could pack into the fewest words.
You said sighted evaluation, right. Well, that's what!
Again the cable length was the only key difference; namely 7' vs 2'
Saying that sighted listening tests for jitter like the ones you did are suspect is like saying that Greenland is north of Cuba. ;-)
Most likely answer: The sound differences were there alright, they were right there in your imagination.
If you repeated them as time-synched, level-matched, properly blinded tests, the results are quite predictably: random guessing.
If you were really interested in proving something with your ears, you would do things just a tad different.
Thanks for the reference to the piece from Positive Feedback. I had forgotten how far out-to-lunch some of their stuff is.

arny, my one request is to desist in this thread that I started.

Your *repetitive* posting is already 1/3 of this thread.

I can take it once, but not 1/3.

Thank you in advance.

FWIW I placed a complaint against you in the "USB or SPDIF to DAC Questions" thread where you've done 16 of the 48 posts, which by my count is 1/3.

If others on AVS get the feeling that AVS has become "the world according to arnyk" then I urge them to communicate with the AVS moderators.

Meaning the "2 Channel Audio" AVS forum is the American Wild West when it comes to borderline posting.

So arny, please go away from this thread that I started and please don't come back.
Reply
Reply
post #8 of 134
6/20/12 at 11:43am
You get to control who posts in threads you start? Wow, I don't remember reading that in the forum rules! rolleyes.gif
Reply
Reply
post #9 of 134
6/20/12 at 12:05pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by beaveav View Post

You get to control who posts in threads you start? Wow, I don't remember reading that in the forum rules! rolleyes.gif

Amusing. smile.gif

Maybe I didn't make myself clear?

arnyk is so far over whatever "the limit" might be in his posting that it raises questions in my mind about AVS itself.

But again the 2 Channel Audio forum is the American Wild West when it comes to borderline posting.

I'm still waiting for a response from Ethan Winer who is one of the few that I trust to respond with straight thoughts/info in this thread that I started.

He gave a short question (the most dangerous) and I gave a fairly long reply which is the easiest to attack.

Meaning I've made a serious effort to post something meaningful and I'm hoping to see meaningful responses.
Reply
Reply
post #10 of 134
6/20/12 at 12:13pm
I'm with Other Songs on this one. Arny's consistent 'in your face' method of multiquoting and dissecting a post is getting tiring. It's every thread just about.
Reply
Reply
post #11 of 134
6/20/12 at 12:16pm
Why is this even an argument? That jitter exists is known, the effects maybe not but as owners of gear and listeners isn't the next step simply to avoid it rather than argue its existence?

Just a thought.
Reply
Reply
post #12 of 134
6/20/12 at 12:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by OtherSongs View Post

I did not use any measurement tools to determine presence of jitter.
The only difference in the #3 vs #4 setups/tests, in my OP, was the length of the digital coax interconnect carrying the S\PDIF signal. Namely 7' vs 2'
I was fairly surprised that the difference in sound quality was more than just subtle.
Anyway I took the writeup at http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue14/spdif.htm at face value.
So if not jitter then what?
Again the cable length was the only key difference; namely 7' vs 2'
Yes I know I did a sighted test, which is suspect.
So if the sound difference really is there, what else can you think of besides jitter?
All ears. smile.gif
Meaning please give a thoughtful response in kind; don't just attack some short phrase from my above words.

Exactly how much jitter do think 5 ft of cable induces?
Doesn't the Benchmark DAC1/HDR re-clock S/PDIF?

Here's their marketing shtick: "All digital inputs on the DAC1 HDR (including the USB) feature Benchmark's jitter-immune UltraLock™ clock system".
Reply
Reply
post #13 of 134
6/20/12 at 12:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nethawk View Post

Why is this even an argument? That jitter exists is known, the effects maybe not but as owners of gear and listeners isn't the next step simply to avoid it rather than argue its existence?
Just a thought.

Avoiding jitter is like avoiding entropy. You aren't going to avoid either in this universe. Jitter has been around since the advent of the Edison phonograph, if not earlier. When the speed that the LP turns past the needle is not perfectly stable, there is jitter. Ditto for analog tape. Fact is that the jitter in digital equipment is generally far less than either analog tape or the LP.

There is even acoustical jitter. The speed of sound in air is dependent on temperature. There are air currents in every room that constantly swirl and change the temperature distribution of the air in the room. As the air changes temperature, the speed of sound varies and the music that is passing through the air undergoes changes in frequency.

To do away with jitter, you'd have to do away with sound...
Reply
Reply
post #14 of 134
6/20/12 at 12:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nethawk View Post

Why is this even an argument?

Because fear of jitter has been one of the larger scams perpetrated on the world of audio.

Once upon a time I asked a bunch of audiophiles what jitter sounded like. I got as many answers as there were audiophiles.

Unlike them I actually know what jitter sounds like. I have the ability to add variable amounts of jitter at different frequencies to musical signals. I have several ways to do this, some I do with signal processing that is applied to a digital signal in a cable, and some that I do by making changes to .wav files. None of the audiophile's answers seemed to indicate to me that they knew what jitter sounded like.
Reply
Reply
post #15 of 134
6/20/12 at 12:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by OtherSongs View Post

Amusing. smile.gif
Maybe I didn't make myself clear?

Your position is very clear. You're a true believer in what many audiophiles have been told about jitter.
Quote:
arnyk is so far over whatever "the limit" might be in his posting that it raises questions in my mind about AVS itself.

How so?

Quote:
I'm still waiting for a response from Ethan Winer who is one of the few that I trust to respond with straight thoughts/info in this thread that I started.

Breace yourself, you are proably not going to get much of a different answer from Ethan than you've gotten from me.
Quote:
He gave a short question (the most dangerous) and I gave a fairly long reply which is the easiest to attack.

The word is correct, not attack.
Quote:
Meaning I've made a serious effort to post something meaningful and I'm hoping to see meaningful responses.

Trouble is, you have taken the approach of attacking posts that contain correct information, and were put up to help you.
Reply
Reply
post #16 of 134
6/20/12 at 12:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by glangford View Post

I'm with Other Songs on this one. Arny's consistent 'in your face' method of multiquoting and dissecting a post is getting tiring. It's every thread just about.

The above is a personal attack, but I don't care about that, other than it is a very inappropriate way to respond to people who are trying to help you.

You are only sensitive to what I say because you disagree with it.

I can and have proven what I say. Can you say the same?
Reply
Reply
post #17 of 134
6/20/12 at 12:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swampfox View Post

Exactly how much jitter do think 5 ft of cable induces?
Doesn't the Benchmark DAC1/HDR re-clock S/PDIF?
Here's their marketing shtick: "All digital inputs on the DAC1 HDR (including the USB) feature Benchmark's jitter-immune UltraLock™ clock system".

I suspect that Benchmark's claims are factual. Buffering and reclocking signals to reduce jitter is far older than digital audio. I worked on IBM tape drives in the middle 1960s that used this approach to accurately read magnetic tape.
Reply
Reply
post #18 of 134
6/20/12 at 1:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by beaveav View Post

You get to control who posts in threads you start? Wow, I don't remember reading that in the forum rules! rolleyes.gif

The need to control their environment is one of those things that obsessive people sometimes feel in overwhelming ways. [-)

In this case, they don't want to hear the truth. The reason why I've posted so much truth is because they posted so many claims that are easy to prove to be false.
Reply
Reply
post #19 of 134
6/20/12 at 1:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Because fear of jitter has been one of the larger scams perpetrated on the world of audio.
Once upon a time I asked a bunch of audiophiles what jitter sounded like. I got as many answers as there were audiophiles.
Unlike them I actually know what jitter sounds like. I have the ability to add variable amounts of jitter at different frequencies to musical signals. I have several ways to do this, some I do with signal processing that is applied to a digital signal in a cable, and some that I do by making changes to .wav files. None of the audiophile's answers seemed to indicate to me that they knew what jitter sounded like.

Are you a recording engineer professionally, or is it a hobby? Just curious. smile.gif
Reply
Reply
post #20 of 134
6/20/12 at 1:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg121986 View Post

Are you a recording engineer professionally, or is it a hobby? Just curious. smile.gif

I do recording professionally. IOW people pay me to record things for them,. I've recorded over 1,000 different musical groups in the past 10 years. I've made over 6,000 recordings in that time. All of my recordings sell in very small quantities because they serve instructional and religious purposes.
Reply
Reply
post #21 of 134
6/20/12 at 1:26pm
Hi OtherSongs,

Trying to get back on track . . .
Quote:
Originally Posted by OtherSongs View Post

So if not jitter then what?
One possibility is that the added cable-loss is causing you to drop bits.

The S/PDIF signal over coax is specified at only .2 volts. If the source is weak, the cable/connector loss too high, or the receiver not sensitive enough, then the added length could be pushing you over the edge.

I wouldn't discount jitter, but the signal travels at a speed of roughly one foot per nanosecond. So the added 5 feet would only add 5 nanoseconds to the propagation delay, so the added jitter should be less than that. That should be small compared to other jitter sources in the chain.
Reply
Reply
post #22 of 134
6/20/12 at 1:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by glangford View Post

I'm with Other Songs on this one. Arny's consistent 'in your face' method of multiquoting and dissecting a post is getting tiring. It's every thread just about.

The above is a personal attack, but I don't care about that, other than it is a very inappropriate way to respond to people who are trying to help you.

You are only sensitive to what I say because you disagree with it.

I can and have proven what I say. Can you say the same?

It's not that you can't. I don't mind opinions, its your delivery that could use some work (tact).
Reply
Reply
post #23 of 134
6/20/12 at 1:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

The above is a personal attack, but I don't care about that, other than it is a very inappropriate way to respond to people who are trying to help you.
You are only sensitive to what I say because you disagree with it.
I can and have proven what I say. Can you say the same?

I haven't even responded to this post and have not levied an opinion on jitter so I'm not sensitive to what you've said, just how you say it. As far as proving what you can say, I assume you can but you seem to take the opposite approach by instead pointing out how wrong someone else's is with a dissected multi-quote of their post. So who knows?

As far as trying to help, please stick to the facts or even your opinions and focus less on your rejection and belittling of others.
Reply
Reply
post #24 of 134
6/20/12 at 1:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by glangford View Post

It's not that you can't. I don't mind opinions, its your delivery that could use some work (tact).

It is interesting to see what some people call tact. Threats, false claims and personal attacks... Oh, its all about whose ox is gored - I get it! ;-)
Reply
Reply
post #25 of 134
6/20/12 at 2:31pm
I would believe you but only if your wife can clearly hear the difference as well...that's always the deal closer for me for audiophile claims.
Reply
Reply
post #26 of 134
6/20/12 at 3:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by OtherSongs View Post

arny, my one request is to desist in this thread that I started.
Your *repetitive* posting is already 1/3 of this thread.
I can take it once, but not 1/3.
Thank you in advance.
FWIW I placed a complaint against you in the "USB or SPDIF to DAC Questions" thread where you've done 16 of the 48 posts, which by my count is 1/3.
If others on AVS get the feeling that AVS has become "the world according to arnyk" then I urge them to communicate with the AVS moderators.
Meaning the "2 Channel Audio" AVS forum is the American Wild West when it comes to borderline posting.
So arny, please go away from this thread that I started and please don't come back.
OtherSongs, other forums are out there for your choosing. Many of them don't have arnyk and Ethan Winer posting so feel free. Here's a sample of one that will suit your taste:

It's about cable.
OP: "I have been proven wrong.
I have always thought that the IC, power cable, speaker wire "improvements" was a bunch of crap to seperate fools from their money.
Well I was sitting in a 3rd world hellhole with a big chunk of money burning a hole in my pocket, feeling foolish enough to waste some cash on some new IC's. The wierder the better. I decided on Mapleshade's ribbon IC's, nothing is wierder than copper foil running through baggies.
Well, they arrived today, I plugged them in, and BOOM! Right out of the box they kicked ass. I am truly amazed.
There is none of the "Well It sounds less muddy" crap. There is a night and day difference. I can truly hear further into the music. Wow!
I have had my head buried in the sand for far too long.
You are free to ridicule me."

Reply 1: "Won't ridicule you, will just say "Welcome to the club." Cabling does make a difference, as does power products, and isolation. Explore away! "

Reply 2: "Which Mapleshade IC"s did you get? Considering a pair myself."

Reply 3: "Donnie got to love your honesty. I concur just received first pair of ic's from *****. First sacd I listened to was Benny Carter cuz I wanted to compare a trumpet solo where it previously sounded a little muffled at one point...was shocked to hear the clarity come through my horn speakers and that was just the FIRST time!
LIFE IS GOOD...now how to figure out how to spend more time listening "

and so on...

Would you like to join them? Just say the word and I'll PM you the link so that arnyk and Ethan Winer won't find out and possibly follow you. wink.gif
Reply
Reply
post #27 of 134
6/20/12 at 4:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Twylight View Post

I would believe you but only if your wife can clearly hear the difference as well...that's always the deal closer for me for audiophile claims.
From the driveway? wink.gifbiggrin.gif
Reply
Reply
post #28 of 134
6/20/12 at 4:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by OtherSongs View Post

Yes you CAN hear jitter!
And it's bad for the sound of your main stereo system.
It's hot here in Chicago today; 88F in the house (fans on!); outside it's 92F (down from 94F an hour ago).
So I thought: don't run any extra gear today; copied a bunch of stereo .flac files (16/44.1 quality rips from my best CD discs) to my trusty external USB HDD.
Played it via my new 2012 Panasonic DMP BDT500 blu-ray player with these combos:
1. Using the DAC(s) inside the BDT500 player; output via the BDT500's rear 7.1 RCA outs via two RCA cables (length not that important as it's an analog signal being carried).
2. Using an external Bel Canto DAC3 via a single 7' digital coax cable for the signal in S/PDIF format.
3. Using an external Benchmark DAC1/HDR via a single 7' digital coax cable for the signal in S/PDIF format.
4. Using same external Benchmark DAC1/HDR via a single 2' digital coax cable for the signal in S/PDIF format.
My impressions/opinions:
1. The BDT500 player is one sweet player for top sound quality, both figuratively and literally. smile.gif
2. My external Bel Canto DAC3 has a slight "solid state" sound; noticeable in that I didn't find myself tapping my foot (tonality not as good as with the BDT500's DAC), and perhaps most noticeably with transient triangle and cymbal sounds. Time to sell the DAC3.
3. My external Benchmark DAC1/HDR is the equal of the BDT500 player; or close enough that it's not worth worrying about. smile.gif
4. Using a single 2' digital coax cable for the signal in S/PDIF format gives same result as with my external Bel Canto DAC3. Probably slightly worse with the 2' cable.
There's also a recent/short AVS thread on "Coaxial Audio: Special Cable?" at http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1412447
My own personal preference for RCA interconnect cables (either analog or digital) is the reasonable http://www.bluejeancable.com/store/digital-audio/index.htm
(fixed address)
I see zero reason to spend more for an interconnect cable than the above no matter how into high end audio you are.
It isn't just the RCA connectors used, *everything* in the circuit affects impedance.
That ref that amirm gave is worth reading if only for the impedance match/mismatch explanation: http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue14/spdif.htm

Why do you think it is jitter? Did you try another 7 ft cable top see if it is not a faulty cable you have? You already said you didn't measure anything and just know from a sighted listening. Why is this not the first question in your own mind and do a DBT no matter how much you think it might be a slam dunk?
In the end, one believes what they want to, what is easy and is not against their belief engine.
Reply
Reply
post #29 of 134
6/20/12 at 7:34pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkHotchkiss View Post

Hi OtherSongs,
Trying to get back on track . . .

Thank you very much!
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkHotchkiss View Post

One possibility is that the added cable-loss is causing you to drop bits.

Doubtful.

FWIW I have had one experience with bad sound due to a faulty interconnect cable, so I do have a small amount of 1st hand negative experience.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkHotchkiss View Post

The S/PDIF signal over coax is specified at only .2 volts. If the source is weak, the cable/connector loss too high, or the receiver not sensitive enough, then the added length could be pushing you over the edge.
I wouldn't discount jitter, but the signal travels at a speed of roughly one foot per nanosecond. So the added 5 feet would only add 5 nanoseconds to the propagation delay, so the added jitter should be less than that. That should be small compared to other jitter sources in the chain.

I'm a math guy. You seem to be an engineer? Work through the math at: http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue14/spdif.htm

Jitter is the only answer I see that explains a noticeable sound improvement by changing from a 2' coax interconnect length to a 7' coax interconnect length for stereo S/PDIF signal. Everything else was the same, only the cable length was changed.

A few side notes:

Still waiting to see a meaningful response from Ethan. I made the effort, so where is Ethan?

I think I got a PM, but can't figure out this new bloody AVS setup for PM messages! MAJOR grumble!!

I also note that arnyk is now over 1/3 of the responses in this thread. frown.giffrown.gif
Reply
Reply
post #30 of 134
6/20/12 at 8:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by OtherSongs View Post

Thank you very much!
Doubtful.
FWIW I have had one experience with bad sound due to a faulty interconnect cable, so I do have a small amount of 1st hand negative experience.
I'm a math guy. You seem to be an engineer? Work through the math at: http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue14/spdif.htm

I see no relevant math in that article. I see some boiler plate such as the calculation of characteristic impedance. But even this information is abused because the article seems to atribute audible faults to circuit board design features that are way too small to matter.

The cited article has many technical problems. It contains facts, such as the effects of FCC-mandated design features of commercial DACs, that preclude the very problems that it seems to claim create audible effects.
Quote:
Jitter is the only answer I see that explains a noticeable sound improvement by changing from a 2' coax interconnect length to a 7' coax interconnect length for stereo S/PDIF signal. Everything else was the same, only the cable length was changed.

The fact that this was apparently a sighted evaluation explains it all. The listeners believed that an audible difference existed, they did a test that is well-known to be highly susceptible to false positive results, and they obtained positive results for which no actual true explanation exists other than things like simple equipment failure or human error.
Quote:
I also note that arnyk is now over 1/3 of the responses in this thread. frown.giffrown.gif

Just keep up your "good work" of repeating the same potentially faulty information over and over again, and I might get to 50%. ;-)
Reply
Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: 2 Channel Audio

AVS Top Picks

AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › 2 Channel Audio › Yes you CAN hear jitter!