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The Terminator New Release - Page 18

post #511 of 640
It's not a question of working with "what little there was" because the foley and effects are almost entirely new and the music has been re-recorded. THAT'S my main beef with the the 5.1, OTT nature of the mix aside, it just doesn't sound like the same movie that I grew up idolising. They've literally binned the existing effects and populated the mix with loads of cast-offs from T2.
post #512 of 640
I hear ya, hence why I agree they should have included the original mono mix. I really don't get why the studios do that.
post #513 of 640
Nothing like superb hyperbole from some of the best lol. It really ain't that bad of a mix at least in headphones. I don't really have any need to hear a mono put to 5.1 though as I don't think it gonna be that good to begin with. The bass isn't that boomy. I rarely even heard it being boomy compared to just about ANY modern film where the bass is completely compressed and ridiculous in many sequences. In my Beyerdynamics the bass was appropriate the whole way through.

And the guns sounded fine to me. Just about any other film from the period sounds worse or the same.

Again, people just want to bitch so let them bitch. I thoroughly enjoyed my time with the film. The color timing is excellent and the fidelity of the image is about as good as blu gets.

I don't have time to sit and whine about miniscule things from a 1984 film when it looks and sounds great to my ears and eyes. Yes, they should have put the mono in. We all know this. Jimbo just being a douche if you ask me. Did it hurt me one bit? No. I'm just glad they chose not to release this in some shoddy 18Mbps transfer with the red push.

And to you teal people seriously.... my god. 80s red push FTW I guess. Terminator looks utterly amazing.
Edited by khronikos - 3/12/13 at 6:00pm
post #514 of 640
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff D View Post

It's not a question of working with "what little there was" because the foley and effects are almost entirely new and the music has been re-recorded. THAT'S my main beef with the the 5.1, OTT nature of the mix aside, it just doesn't sound like the same movie that I grew up idolising. They've literally binned the existing effects and populated the mix with loads of cast-offs from T2.

Perhaps because the creators didn't like the original effects or Jimbo is still burned from not getting his 4 track stereo.

Also: "Again, in mono what separation would there be? None. I'll take the 'amateurish' remix over boring mono any day."

People are giving MONO WAY TOO MUCH CREDIT here. And this is from people who have never even heard an uncompressed mono track to compare I take it. Mono blows in films with effects. It really isn't THAT amateurish considering what they were working with. I'd like to see you people take a mono track and create a stereo master from it. Yeah. Not happening and it's not easy at all.

I never once stopped to say OMG that sound is off in the police station. I was too mesmerized by the detail in the picture and the fact that the red push from 80s was GONE BABY GONE. And all these weapon whines are ridiculous. As if people want this to sound like some 2010 film with perfect weapon sounds. And again, the bass in many modern films is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO much boomier than ANYTHING in T1.
Edited by khronikos - 3/12/13 at 5:57pm
post #515 of 640
You do realize misusing capitalization for emphasis is rather puerile. Then the hypocrisy of berating those who care about one aspect of picture quality over your own in regards to bit-rates is obnoxious and undermines whatever argument you are attempting.

Next films from the 80's were not all color timed to red, what is observed is more than likely an issue with telecine process used to make HD masters years ago; whereas current revision trends are to retime everything to be cooler or bluer color palatte. More than anything they were more 'natural' or warmer but not necessarily redder.

Now Cameron has tended to work with a cooler color palatte in his films but the teal, or what have you, that has been applied to Aliens, Terminator, Titanic to a lesser degree, are not representative of their original color timings. They are however more tastefully done than Micheal Bay's usage of T&O dialed beyond 11.

Best Regards
KvE
post #516 of 640
I think everyone is aware not all 80s films are red pushed into oblivion. The style don't fit these sci-fi films and it seems the creators of some of the biggest and best, BR and T1, seem to agree with me. Thanks CAPTAIN OBVIOUS. Oh, and uh, your forum name is pretty cool, NOT. How's that for puerile champ? I seriously cannot STAND posts like this. Uppity attitude telling people how they should act and write, then goes on to state the most obvious things in the world. Sweet, thanks for that. I feel better reading your post and now I know how to act so you can feel alright again. MY capital letters were sarcasm. Don't care one damn bit what you think of them so let's hope this is the last post from you informing me on etiquette, DAD. FYI people put capital letters in sentences on forums because they are talking with emphasis as in real life when people emphasize certain words. I know, crazy huh? Damn kids.

As I said people can bitch about what they want and I can disagree with it. Josh and the rest have a point and they made it. I don't agree with all of it. I'm tired of people coming into this and whining about the most stupid things imaginable when in reality this remaster is awesome in almost all respects. At some point I don't F'ing care that some dude thinks a sound effect needs a .8 dB increase in the bass frequencies or some other effect is gone and oh god the whole film is ruined now. Mono has a ton of drawbacks.

As for the teal people? I don't care anymore. I am over it. Deal with it. Things change things fade. Not like they digitally replaced the entire film with another one or gave us some shoddy bitrate with artifacts all over the place or a crappy grain structure. It's there, it looks fantastic, and the hyperbole on this site is amazingly ridiculous to me in this case. I don't live in the past and I certainly don't tell other artists what they can and cannot do with their own material. Color timing as far as I am concerned is up to the creator of the film. As long as they show good taste I have no bones about what they do. Even if I do it's not my place to tell them how they make their vision. It's theirs, not mine. I don't feel entitled to see things from only my point of view in this world. And it's not natural to have red tinted skin. Seriously, just drop that natural adjective because it doesn't make any sense. It's not natural. It's red, or pink, or whatever you want to call it and it looks horrible and totally clashed with the film and its tone. Someone I guess must have agreed.

I've been there myself, though, in the whine boat. I whine and moan about bitrates and detail missing. It happens. I've learned to deal with it. We all have something to say. So be it. What you won't find me doing is trying to tell people how to say what they want to say on a forum. I respect that people have problems here. But I can't let that opinion take over the forum without a counter point because in my world that opinion is nuts. Over and out.
Edited by khronikos - 3/12/13 at 8:21pm
post #517 of 640
There is a difference between discussing emphatically versus inflammatory.

Reviewing recent posts the sole individual reliant on hyperbole is yourself currently, never mind now the ad hominems.

Unlike other forums where the majority of discussion lies within unquestioning sycophantic praise of anything thrown on BR and ad nauseam analysis of packaging and tchotchkes, this one generally at least attempts to discuss the quality of the content itself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by khronikos View Post

I think everyone is aware not all 80s films are red pushed into oblivion. The style don't fit these sci-fi films and it seems the creators of some of the biggest and best, BR and T1, seem to agree with me.

This is not what you were communicating in your prior posts.
Now the filmmakers are not agreeing with you it happens to be their current revisions coincide with your particular bias or preference rather.
It is short sighted to argue that all Sci-Fi films should follow a cool palette in production and/or color timing, that is the same as saying any 'period' film should be colored a particular way such as sepia or what have you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by khronikos View Post

The new transfer looks amazing. If ANYTHING, the new color timing ADDS to the transfer and the futuristic setting and takes this film out of the 80s and into a more timeless view. That is just an opinion. But people who are all for this ****** 80s color timing are starting to annoy the hell out of me. It's obvious hardly any directors out their want films to look like that and they do whatever is possible to negate that look. Overgreased reds does not equal the holy grail. Please stop trying to downplay how AWFUL red push is in films.
Quote:
Originally Posted by khronikos View Post

I was too mesmerized by the detail in the picture and the fact that the red push from 80s was GONE BABY GONE.

I responded by addressing what you conveyed that you believe the 80's were color timed red or exhibited a reddish push. Many films in the 80's tended to side in more 'natural' or warmer color timings than the current fashion of making everything cooler.

Film has tended to follow trends, some periods everything was about really saturated colors, other periods warmer or natural, whilst now T&O reigns supreme. A few years from now it will be something different again which is why it is better to side with remaining faithful to the original appearance in the most pristine manner possible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KMFDMvsEnya View Post

Next films from the 80's were not all color timed to red, what is observed is more than likely an issue with telecine process used to make HD masters years ago; whereas current revision trends are to retime everything to be cooler or bluer color palatte. More than anything they were more 'natural' or warmer but not necessarily redder.

Now Cameron has tended to work with a cooler color palatte in his films but the teal, or what have you, that has been applied to Aliens, Terminator, Titanic to a lesser degree, are not representative of their original color timings. They are however more tastefully done than Micheal Bay's usage of T&O dialed beyond 11.

I have seen a good quality print of Blade Runner a while ago and it's color timing is not what is currently found on the Final Cut. Although it does work for the film, that is up for debate and it happens to be a case where I do not mind, similar to my opinion of Aliens but regardless those films are now different from what they were timed to originally.

As many other well informed members have mentioned if Directors had originally intended their films to be teal and orange back in the day that could have been accomplished.

Digital color grading has opened up the possibilities, good and bad, in how to adjust the appearances of each respective work but again the current trend right now is T&O, which is a shame that catalog titles are being conformed to a fad. Already we are seeing some catalog titles being redone with a different trend Jurassic Park, Raiders of the Lost Ark, and Willow for example are shying away from the T&O trend to something more warmer.

Best Regards
KvE
Edited by KMFDMvsEnya - 3/12/13 at 11:06pm
post #518 of 640
"A few years from now it will be something different again which is why it is better to side with remaining faithful to the original appearance in the most pristine manner possible."

Good god. Why it is better? No thanks. We are done here. Take your fascist agenda somewhere else. I'll decide, and everyone else will decide, FOR THEMSELVES without your input on the proceedings making any consideration as to the choice on the matter.

I guarantee you are wrong and that these films will not be changed again in any significant way. Of course it is possible and also highly unlikely. For all intents and purposes these people are now happy with their films and have other things to do. For one a rerelease with ANY changes is only going to happen under certain circumstances anymore. The home market for 4K is going to be niche at best. By the time anything major happens I seriously doubt people are going to have changed their films yet again. At best all you are doing is making every filmmaker who was not happy with their 80s releases seem predisposed to changing their films every couple years. This is patently false. Color grading in the 80s with fairly low budgets was not easy at all and prone to a producer's intent. Making this out to be something that was easily done then is another ruse of yours.

No one has changed the color timing but once in any kind of major way. BR was never finished. The Alien franchise again was the product of two people who don't seem to agree with you that the 'natural' red skin tone suits their films. They aren't going to go back and forth. And they haven't really been making any large scale changes to any of their films but giving them a proper once through for the 1080p releases. For all the information we have there will never be any more cuts of these films or major color timing changes. But your innuendo is fascinating in how much you think you know about these individuals. Thanks for that. I bet you're wrong though.

A good quality print of BR? What does this even mean? You tend to speak like everything you type is the absolute truth. The Final Cut I saw in theaters looked almost exactly like the Blu release. For one the prints are higher quality. The home release was a 16Mbps trashbag in the HDDVD era. In no way does that release represent the definitive release and yet there are going to be no major changes done to that version. Why? Because Ridley has repeatedly said he is very happy with it. All there is left to do is higher bitrates, resolution, etc. Seeing The Final Cut with the original version's color timing would be asinine, insipid, and completely backwards. Going by your agenda they would have changed each and every version of the film to another look. They didn't. It's safe to say by reason through induction they won't be making any more changes to the film but what can be accomplished with better video standards.
Edited by khronikos - 3/13/13 at 6:16am
post #519 of 640
It is evident that reason is lost upon you with all the false equivalency, fallacious, and contradictory logic that you pose.

Best Regards
KvE
post #520 of 640
LOL. Okay Professor. Your veneer wears thin. Pretty easy to pick apart your own contrived opinions that you give to the forum as relative truths that we need to respect and obey just because.... you are right and I am wrong. Maybe next time restructure your sentences so you don't sound like a program and I'll take what you say with any kind of respect.

There is no contradictory logic in my posts. There really isn't any at all but in the last paragraph of the post above and it abides by logic to the T. Nothing said or done by these directors or their peers suggests they will be changing or recutting these films in any way going forward but by video standards changing and improving.

I don't trust people who tell me what is 'better' and the right way to think and feel based off their own absurd predictions.
Edited by khronikos - 3/13/13 at 7:54am
post #521 of 640
"Amazing, amazing, amazing!!!"
Why would we want movies on Blu too lOOk & sound like they originally did?!?!
Why should directors want their movies too lOOk & sound like they originally did?!?!
"T" lOOks "amazing" that it doesn't lOOk like it use too & it's sounds "amazing" w/it's wimpy gun sounds.
"Amazing" that any one would want anything different than this "amazing" release!
"Amazing"!
post #522 of 640
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

I don't know what is up with all you guys. It looks fantastic!!! If you watch the movie and not just look at cherry picked (and possible edited) pics on the internetz you might enjoy the product.

Right, because there's SO much time to go in and edit pics ever so slightly into a haze of teal with everything else involved in the process.
post #523 of 640
Quote:
Originally Posted by khronikos View Post

People are giving MONO WAY TOO MUCH CREDIT here. And this is from people who have never even heard an uncompressed mono track to compare I take it.
My remuxed BD with the uncompressed Laserdisc mono track begs to differ.
post #524 of 640
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamereviewgod View Post

Right, because there's SO much time to go in and edit pics ever so slightly into a haze of teal with everything else involved in the process.

Lol really?

Some people have plenty of time for such things. However cherry picking the most teal pics and only showing those is a bit easier.
post #525 of 640
And it's obvious what is being done here. I thought the whole film was going to be a mass of teal from the giant hyperbole on this site. I watched it and was surprised at how damn fine it looked. Never once did the teal bother me because in reality it isn't really teal. It's a very marginal change to a bluish/greenish shade, honestly would not call it teal, which gives the film an aesthetic where before it looked like random 80s film shot on ****** camera. It also mixes well with the future sections.

I never thought skin tones were out of whack on this one. Also paid close attention to the whites as well when they appear. A tiny bit of difference. And one I think this film sorely needed in the end.... One the old 'purists' are never going to like for various reasons mostly nostalgic. They want their 80s back and someone is stealing it from them or something. That is their complaint and it can remain a valid one but in end I feel retiming these films is the right thing to do when it comes out like this. I still have yet to see the Alien films where it could look a bit different but again I never liked the old color timing on those films either. I just cannot stand a red-tinted image and that is about that in my opinion.

Maybe if it were in between the present two timings people would not be so angry IDK. I'm not saying they could not have done better I'm saying I think they did a great job here for what it is. Honestly, I watch this film like once a year. It's not going to affect my everyday life.

This wimpy gun sounds BS is ridiculous. Maybe you guys need to recalibrate your sound systems because I never heard many wimpy gun sounds. This is a 1984 film done on a small budget. No 1984 film to my knowledge ever had that great of gun sounds compared to today's sound design. Everything but a few shots here and there sounded fine to me. None of this hilarious pew pew crap on this site anyway. Maybe turn the volume knob up grandpa.
post #526 of 640
Threads like this are the reason that a thread like "This Blu-Ray Forum is not as active as it used to be...." exist.

Seriously. Do people enjoy anything anymore?
post #527 of 640
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Lol really?

Some people have plenty of time for such things. However cherry picking the most teal pics and only showing those is a bit easier.

Considering I barely have time to even get a review up this week, no. I doubt many people who take the time out of their day to do this in the first place have the space to work in a color scheme on a handful of screens. And, considering all of the "current" day scenes are give a teal tinge, there is no cherry picking. If the teal doesn't bother you (it didn't bother many with Aliens either) fine, but to throw out accusations isn't helping anyone. In most other aspects, the disc is fine and it IS the best it's ever looked, but that isn't means for an instant pass when it could still be better.
post #528 of 640
Well, it could still be better with color timing is up to opinion. In the view of the creators, which I support, they don't want the old color timing and it's not going to ever be released again with that color timing because it produces an image that doesn't gel with the film and the vision they are trying to portray.

So it's a moot point. Some of us don't live in the past.

On the mono point I agree and have agreed with others, it should have been included NO DOUBT about it.
post #529 of 640
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamereviewgod View Post

Considering I barely have time to even get a review up this week, no. I doubt many people who take the time out of their day to do this in the first place have the space to work in a color scheme on a handful of screens. And, considering all of the "current" day scenes are give a teal tinge, there is no cherry picking. If the teal doesn't bother you (it didn't bother many with Aliens either) fine, but to throw out accusations isn't helping anyone. In most other aspects, the disc is fine and it IS the best it's ever looked, but that isn't means for an instant pass when it could still be better.

Agreed and 99% of all the Blu's we love could be better but they aren't. So I just enjoy the damn product instead of complaining about the most minute BS that nearly everybody does in this subforum.
post #530 of 640
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Agreed and 99% of all the Blu's we love could be better but they aren't.

They will only ever be better if we complain: remaining silent is tantamount to telling the studios that we are happy with what they dish out, the bar gets lowered and when the bean counters next ask how more "efficiencies" can be made, other reductions will be made to see if anyone objects.

Saying nothing would not have resulted in Gladiator being fixed to replace the detail lost through cleanup and DNR.
post #531 of 640
This is about as far from Gladiator as you can get.
Objective transfer flaws are hardly the same as people arbitrarily deciding they don't like some color because they read some dumb nonsense on a blog.
Sometimes I'm not sure the internet was such a great idea after all... truly an unprecedentedly powerful engine for the spread of misinformation and uninformed gibbering.
Edited by 42041 - 3/14/13 at 10:41pm
post #532 of 640
Now if you want to talk messed up color timings that alter a film into another galaxy let us talk about Road Warrior. Seriously, they might as well issue it in both timings as the whole damn film is just mind-blowingly different. Personally, they need to reissue it with a middle ground as altering the desert like that just doesn't fit that film like it does with these ones IMO.

I guess they won't because I heard it was the right timing on BD; overcompensation or something? Still not sure what to think. That is some pretty hefty overcompensation. Not saying it had to be like the old one but there should be some kind of in-between they can hit there surely. Oh wells. As long as they up the bitrate and do lossless I am good.

With T1 the old color timing was WAY too red. A true 80s relic when that color timing was in vogue. The more I watch the remaster the more I totally agree with Cameron. I wonder if the upcoming Mad Max set is going to be same weak ass disc Warner already issues. Even without the color timing it was a weak disc.
Edited by khronikos - 3/14/13 at 11:59pm
post #533 of 640
Quote:
Originally Posted by khronikos View Post

A true 80s relic when that color timing was in vogue.

That's the whole point: a film is a product of its time and should not be messed with. If the studios want to issue "Terminator Mark II", by all means, but also release the original version with as much care as a revered artwork.

Hey, let's spray a teal wash over the Mona Lisa to make those earthy tones really pop, because it's flavour of the month!
post #534 of 640
Terminator never looked all red in theaters like the old disc. It looked more like the new disc. Hey, let's spray a red wash over the Mona Lisa to make those earthy tones really pop, because it's flavour of the month a decade ago and keep it that way. Cos I've been watching it that way for the last 10 years.
post #535 of 640
Quote:
Originally Posted by IanD View Post

They will only ever be better if we complain: remaining silent is tantamount to telling the studios that we are happy with what they dish out, the bar gets lowered and when the bean counters next ask how more "efficiencies" can be made, other reductions will be made to see if anyone objects.

Saying nothing would not have resulted in Gladiator being fixed to replace the detail lost through cleanup and DNR.

That's true, kind of. Not all our complaints get dealt with and I would say far less than 10% of them get used for something good. In your case, a re-release of Gladiator which had an awful old sharpened transfer. Thankfully that time the complaints did not fall on deaf ears. Patton is another recent example. I can't really think of many more than that.
post #536 of 640
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

That's true, kind of. Not all our complaints get dealt with and I would say far less than 10% of them get used for something good. In your case, a re-release of Gladiator which had an awful old sharpened transfer. Thankfully that time the complaints did not fall on deaf ears. Patton is another recent example. I can't really think of many more than that.

Some are slower and more subtle. Warner's new release encodes have improved dramatically, and Universal's catalog titles are getting better by the day. Being vocal, even if it's just on a forum or critically on a website, is a way of letting studios know you're dissatisfied. If you like the new look of Terminator, fine. A lot of don't though, and that needs to be expressed. I don't understand the idea of just sitting idly by when things bother you.
post #537 of 640
It does need to be expressed but again I think it went too far. That old '80s' look is obviously not what Cameron wants for the film. It's not a matter of comparing it to the mona lisa. If the artist of any great work decided to hack it up and present it in a new light it is that artist's choice. Too many people on here forget who is in control of the vision and the work itself. James Cameron isn't dead so you can stop using those tired straw man arguments.

That being said the film being bathed in some red-tinted mess is purely wrong no matter how anybody sees it imho. The new color timing fits the film and it is as simple as that in my mind.
post #538 of 640
I do not believe anyone is really arguing that the old HD master that has been kicking around for ages is accurate to how it originally looked.
It is likely that what is seen is an artifact of how it was transferred in the original telecine process, not your vaunted and baseless red tinted '80s look' claim.

Once more the reason that the new color timing seems to work for the film now is not because that is how it was originally but due to Cameron's signature aesthetic to work more with a cool color palette. Which is not exclusive to teal.

As much as I find the whole schtick to regrading older films to a current aesthetic abhorrent and detrimental there are cases where I do not find it nearly as objectionable. Such as Aliens, Terminator, Titanic.

Especially when the Director and/or the DP are involved; unless of course they take off the deep end and actually ruin the film. French Connection or The Last Emperor springs to mind.

I have not heard the mono track in years but I hope to obtain a copy of the DVD that does soon to do a comparison. The mono track should have been included but at the same if it has different color timing is it really necessary or appropriate to include it?

One instance where I recall Cameron being on record about not being happy with The Terminator mix is on the Aliens commentary. I believe he mentions that it was a rushed and amateurish mix, especially in comparison to his experience with Aliens and his subsequent films.

Best Regards
KvE

PS Now it should be understood that artist ownership of their work changes when transferred to a new owner. Da Vinci if he were alive today could not arbitrarily change the Mona Lisa any longer unless the current owner permitted it.

Same for Directors, the most successful do retain a higher degree of artistic ownership or deference from studios in the final appearance and cut of a film, even though they themselves do not own it.
However not all directors in the past or currently are so fortunate to be afforded that amount of authorship, although in practice studios do tend to defer to the directors decisions but not always.

In fact there are plenty of transfers for BR that have been mucked up with no involvement of the Director or DP. Director approved master and/or transfer gets bandied about quite a lot but can be completely disingenuous to the final result. An old master which was director approved years ago can be 'remastered' and the appearance of the transfer completely different to what the director originally intended or approved. Gladiator and Gangs of New York spring to mind, or I would argue Ghostbusters falls into that category as well.
post #539 of 640
Quote:
Originally Posted by KMFDMvsEnya View Post

I have not heard the mono track in years but I hope to obtain a copy of the DVD that does soon to do a comparison. The mono track should have been included but at the same if it has different color timing is it really necessary or appropriate to include it?.
There are some early DVD releases including a special edition that include the mono track, but they are heavily compressed sloppy versions of the mono which don't go close to giving it justice. The best most accurate version of the mono track would be the LCPM Laserdisc.

yes, it should have still been included. No excuse for that at all. James Cameron's ignorance and butthurt should not stand in the way regardless of the fact that he is the director. Its not just his film, its the peoples film too. Keeping both sides happy is easy enough and yet he selfishly refuses to do it. That is not fair.
post #540 of 640
I watch quite a lot of older films on 35mm and I've never noticed any sort of tendency toward a "red-tinted" look in 80s films. Some are warmer, some are cooler, some are greener, etc. People's idea of how films of a certain time looked has been corrupted by rubbish home video transfers, which are sadly the norm rather than the exception... which makes some of the comments in these discussions grind my teeth. Heck, I've seen IB Tech prints from the 50s with what would undoubtedly be called "revisionist teal" in them.
Edited by 42041 - 3/15/13 at 8:34pm
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