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Looking for good 5.1 sound at low or medium volumes

post #1 of 47
6/21/12 at 5:39pm
Thread Starter 
Spent a few days reading through almost all the speaker threads and haven't seen anything on this topic/emphasis ... Please re-direct me if I've missed something.

Purchased a Denon 1713 and am looking for new set of 5.1 speakers that have a very good sound at low to lower-medium volumes. (Single dad, do a lot of TV watching after the little one has gone to bed.) The local BB and other vendors are focused on systems that sound fantastic, when they're blasting.

Price range flexible ... start off with $500 to $1000.
12 x 14 room
65" panny plasma (arriving in couple of days to replace 5yo 50" panny plasma)

Replacing an Onkyo HTIB system (HT-SP904) that I've never been thrilled with (highs brittle to my ears, and weak in the lower mid range - ok to good low bass but there's a big gap between it and the rest of the sound).

Big-time appreciation for the forums - wish I'd read them before my first HT purchase/set-up 5 years ago ; )

Stevan
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post #2 of 47
6/21/12 at 7:08pm
fwiw, just a suggestion for your size room

pair energy rc-10 $250 @ vanns

energy rclcr center $250 @vanns

hsu vtf-1mk2 sub on sale $464 ship.

save up for some cheap rears
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post #3 of 47
6/21/12 at 8:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by smasher50 View Post

fwiw, just a suggestion for your size room
pair energy rc-10 $250 @ vanns
energy rclcr center $250 @vanns
hsu vtf-1mk2 sub on sale $464 ship.
save up for some cheap rears

+1

The RC-10s are some great sounding speakers at that price. What I love about mine is that they do have very good low mid range and midbass. Great for music and HT.

However, I would get the Energy S10.3 sub on sale at Newegg for $199 (use promo code ENE621) and go ahead and buy the RC-10s for the rears, too. The S10.3 is plenty of sub for your room.
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post #4 of 47
6/22/12 at 5:11am
Turns out that the RC-10s are $230 at Vanns as the their Deal of the Day (good for 15 hours more). With four of those and the RC-LCR for the center, that's $710 for 5.0. You'd be hard pressed to find a better deal for that amount.
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post #5 of 47
6/24/12 at 12:46am
Thread Starter 
Much thanks for your input! Been looking at the specs of the speakers you suggested and doing a little more research to gather more specific questions.

Thinking my first purchase will be R/L/C and sub, and I'll upgrade my surrounds in a month or two. So, remembering impressively high volume is not my goal, but rather good definition and a balanced dynamic range at mid to lower mid volume is …

SUB:
A friend has the Martin Logan Dynomo 500 I was able to audition. To my ears it has a tight sound with lots of definition (I can distinguish the pitch, individual sounds, etc.) as opposed to being nebulous or boomy. So ...
Would the less expensive Energy S10.3 have the same qualities? (In which case great!)
Is the Martin Logan Dynomo 500 a sub you would recommend ($500)? Or is it overkill in my situation?

R/L/C:
After taking a closer look I realized I have a big restriction to take into account … My center speaker can't be more than 6" deep. This limits my options re R/L/C combinations.

The RC-10's R/L look great, but the only center I can use is the RC-Mini-C center. Would that make for an unbalance up front? (I'm thinking the center is the last speaker I want under-performing.)

I've found two R/L/C trio sets with centers that fit, and are in my price range, from Definitive Technologies:
R/L ProMonitor 1000's with a ProCenter 1000. ($660)
R/L Mythos5 towers with a Mythos3 center. ($850 - worth the extra expense?)

A third wild-card option - I heard these at a friend's house and like the sound of them. Never of heard of this brand before.
R/L HTD Level Two towers with a HTD Flat Panel center. ($549)

Do any of these combinations sound particularly good or bad for the money?
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post #6 of 47
6/24/12 at 1:34am
Thread Starter 
I did hear some Klipsch set ups. Obviously really good speakers but don't think the bright-ish horn sound / quality is for me … is there such a thing as a warm sound with nice clear highs?

Also, I see the Definitive Technologies ProCinema 800 set on sale for $990. Or is that heading the wrong direction compared to the sets in the previous post?

Again, thanks!
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post #7 of 47
6/24/12 at 6:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdg4vfx View Post

SUB:
A friend has the Martin Logan Dynomo 500 I was able to audition. To my ears it has a tight sound with lots of definition (I can distinguish the pitch, individual sounds, etc.) as opposed to being nebulous or boomy. So ...
Would the less expensive Energy S10.3 have the same qualities? (In which case great!)
Is the Martin Logan Dynomo 500 a sub you would recommend ($500)? Or is it overkill in my situation?

While I can't tell you which of the two will sound better for certain, the Dynamo 500 is not nearly the value at full MSRP as the S10.3 at 40% of MSRP. If you ask on the AVS subwoofer forum, they will recommend the HSU VTF-1 MK2 over the Dynamo 500 in the below $500 range for a 10" sub. It has deeper extension and more output (for when you do decide to listen to it louder, which you will when your kids get older on movie nights) and is considered to have very good SQ for a 10" ported sbu. And if you want better SQ than that, then the Epik Legend for $499 + shipping, a 12" dual sealed sub. HSU, Epik, Outlaw Audio, and SVS are the major Internet direct vendors that offer way better price/performance values over traditional speaker company brands that are listed at full MSRP. No middle man retailer built into the price.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdg4vfx View Post

R/L/C:
After taking a closer look I realized I have a big restriction to take into account … My center speaker can't be more than 6" deep. This limits my options re R/L/C combinations.
The RC-10's R/L look great, but the only center I can use is the RC-Mini-C center. Would that make for an unbalance up front? (I'm thinking the center is the last speaker I want under-performing.)

People are using the RC-Mini center with the RC-10s, but of course the RC-LCR is better because of the additional driver size. You might ask in the Energy owners thread to see what people's experience has been with that combo. Have you considered mounting the center channel over the TV?
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post #8 of 47
6/24/12 at 6:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdg4vfx View Post

Much thanks for your input! Been looking at the specs of the speakers you suggested and doing a little more research to gather more specific questions.
Thinking my first purchase will be R/L/C and sub, and I'll upgrade my surrounds in a month or two. So, remembering impressively high volume is not my goal, but rather good definition and a balanced dynamic range at mid to lower mid volume is …
SUB:
A friend has the Martin Logan Dynomo 500 I was able to audition. To my ears it has a tight sound with lots of definition (I can distinguish the pitch, individual sounds, etc.) as opposed to being nebulous or boomy. So ...
Would the less expensive Energy S10.3 have the same qualities? (In which case great!)
Is the Martin Logan Dynomo 500 a sub you would recommend ($500)? Or is it overkill in my situation?
R/L/C:
After taking a closer look I realized I have a big restriction to take into account … My center speaker can't be more than 6" deep. This limits my options re R/L/C combinations.
The RC-10's R/L look great, but the only center I can use is the RC-Mini-C center. Would that make for an unbalance up front? (I'm thinking the center is the last speaker I want under-performing.)
I've found two R/L/C trio sets with centers that fit, and are in my price range, from Definitive Technologies:
R/L ProMonitor 1000's with a ProCenter 1000. ($660)
R/L Mythos5 towers with a Mythos3 center. ($850 - worth the extra expense?)
A third wild-card option - I heard these at a friend's house and like the sound of them. Never of heard of this brand before.
R/L HTD Level Two towers with a HTD Flat Panel center. ($549)
Do any of these combinations sound particularly good or bad for the money?

I've used the RC-10's as fronts with the RC-mini CC. I later used them with the RC-LCR. The LCR is a definite step up, but the RC-mini CC is very good in its own right. I'd highly recommend the RC-LCR, but if you're not able to have it, the mini is a very good alternative.

I haven't heard the Martin Logan, but I do own the S10.3. I listen to both two channel (CD) and multi channel music (DVD-A, SACD, FLAC) of all different stripes - hip hop, jazz, classical, rock. I'm in an apartment, which is why I haven't stepped up to a Hsu, SVS, etc. sub, but to me the S10.3 delivers what I want. It doesn't have the power of those subs, but then I am not looking for room busting power where I am. I would also recommend the S10.3.

If you want to spend the $500 (or around there) for a sub, there are some very good alternatives. Look at the Hsu VTF2-MK4. You might ask the question in the subs forum about the comparison of the S10.3 and the Martin Logan, but here's a couple of specs to consider:
  1. Frequency response - Martin Logan is 29Hz - 200Hz, S10.3 is 21 Hz to 120Hz. I'd give the edge to the S10.3.
  2. Amplifier power - Martin Logan 120 Watts RMS, 360 Watts peak. S10.3 is 200 Watts RMS, 800 Watts peak. The S10.3 has more power available.
  3. Materials - Martin Logan has a polypropylene cone, the S10.3 has a polypropylene ceramic/glass/mica deposit hybrid with ribbed elliptical surround. More well versed people can speak to the benefits (see subs forum), but being an ex-chemist, I appreciate the benefits of improved materials.

In the final analysis, what it sounds like to you is the most important thing, but in trying to get as much information as you can, these are some things where the S10.3 is IMO better. The price for the S10.3 is a great bargain right now. The original MSRP was over $500, so it's a quality sub.

Again, if you plan on spending $500, I would get another sub, but the Martin Logan wouldn't be first on my list.
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post #9 of 47
6/24/12 at 2:17pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hernanu View Post

If you want to spend the $500 (or around there) for a sub, there are some very good alternatives.

Again, much thanks for the replies!

Re SUBs

Nah - don't "want" to spend $500 on a subwoofer ; ) Mentioned the ML that I had a chance to listen to, as an example of the sound I'm looking for.

I've had numerous experiences of going to hear other friends' new HT systems with them thrilled that the sub could shake the walls (which it did). Meanwhile to me it really sounds boomy - i.e I'm thinking that's not a sound effect, that's a string line in the soundtrack, how come all I hear are blurry thumps instead of the actual notes?

If the Energy S10.3 has some of that definition then I'm very, very fine with the price - currently $190 at newegg!

After reading several of the sub-woofer forum threads these appear to be the other likely options.

Outlaw M8 $250

BIC PL-200 $330

Are they worth the upgrade compared to the S10.3?

I think these bigger upgrades probably don't apply to me at the moment. Maybe later (when I'm hit with upgrade-itis).
Epik Legend $500
HSU VTF-1 MK2 $430
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post #10 of 47
6/24/12 at 2:47pm
It is hard to overlook the Energy sub
http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/article/energy-take-series-home-theater-speaker-system?page=0,2

Also HTD, makes good stuff. With Definitive, I would go bigger than 3 1/2" woofers.
Edited by zieglj01 - 6/24/12 at 2:57pm
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post #11 of 47
6/24/12 at 2:59pm
Then go with the S10.3 smile.gif
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post #12 of 47
6/24/12 at 4:01pm
I have kids also so I have a similar situation. I have Polk Monitor 30s for fronts and a Monitor CS1 for a center. Newegg delivered me an Energy S10.3 a couple of days ago and I like it. No complaints yet except when I cranked it up somewhat the first day. This is my configuration now that we are in a house with my setup in the basement, middle floor has the kitchen and living room so the bedrooms are upstairs. When we were in an apartment I used decent over the ear headphones and that worked pretty well.
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post #13 of 47
6/24/12 at 6:15pm
Thread Starter 
Buying the Energy Sub - thanks!
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post #14 of 47
6/25/12 at 12:46pm
Thread Starter 
The S10.3 should arrive tomorrow - thanks!

R/L/C

Appreciate your patience - I should have identified the size limitation issue for my center-speaker before I started the thread. Turns out it greatly narrows my options. (Mounting the center above the TV unfortunately won't work.) Fairly clear after reading scads of threads in the forums that:
- the center speaker is very important
- the R/L/C trio should be matched
- the RC-Mini-C is not a healthy match for the RC-10's
Hence my latest round of research has been center-speaker-centric. (Def Tech and HDT both seem to have the strongest center speakers that will fit my set up.)

The RC-10's look great but all the Energy centers are too big for me. Unless there is another brand center that would uniquely work well with them they are out for me. (Side note: I'm learning the music app Logic, would the RC-10's be good stereo near-field monitors for my computer?)

The two bookshelf options I've come up with are:

DT ProMonitor 1000 Pair $440
DT ProCenter 1000 $220

HTD Level 3 Bookshelf Pair $299
Flat Panel Center $149

After auditioning a few systems (most of which I can't use because of the center spkr size issue) I noticed a trend: To my ears front-tower set ups offered a more balanced sound, fuller dynamic range, etc. at middle to low volumes than the bookshelf/satellite fronts. Among other things they seemed to better fill the middle-low's gap. This seemed true with several brands, both low end and high end systems, etc.. Is this just my ears/brain projecting or is this a commonly accepted notion?

Based on that I've come up with these R/L/C tower options:

DT Mythos4 tower Pair $600
DT Mythos3 center $250

DT BP8B tower pair $500
DT Mythos #3 center $250

HTD Level 2 Towers Pair $400
HTD Flat Panel Center $149

Obvious general question - does the sq of the Def Tech systems merit the extra cost over the HTD's? (They're all within my budget, sq more important to me than a couple hundred bucks. But no one wants to waste money either.)

Last question - if I go with a tower set up should I bump up from the Denon 1713 to 1913? The 1913 has more power (both watts and amps) and the two extra powered outs would allow me to take advantage of the dual bi-amp inputs on a couple of the front speakers I've listed.

Any other suggestions you have would also be greatly appreciated!
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post #15 of 47
6/25/12 at 1:25pm
I would personally rather have larger drivers in towers than what comes in the Def Tech Mythos.

What are the maximum dimensions that your center can be? Maybe we can suggest additional options?
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post #16 of 47
6/25/12 at 1:45pm
Have you thought about a good pair of headphones? When I lived in a condo with a small kid and neighbors, this was the perfect option until we moved and I built a well insulated home theater room.

If not, also try white noise in your child's room. Really helps.

I crank, and I mean crank, it at night and the kids never wake up..
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post #17 of 47
6/25/12 at 2:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdg4vfx View Post

The S10.3 should arrive tomorrow

After auditioning a few systems (most of which I can't use because of the center spkr size issue) I noticed
DT Mythos4 tower Pair $600
DT Mythos3 center $250
DT BP8B tower pair $500
DT Mythos #3 center $250
HTD Level 2 Towers Pair $400
HTD Flat Panel Center $149
Obvious general question - does the sq of the Def Tech systems merit the extra cost over the HTD's? (They're all within my budget, sq more important to me than a couple hundred bucks. But no one wants to waste money either.)
Last question - if I go with a tower set up should I bump up from the Denon 1713 to 1913? The 1913 has more power (both watts and amps) and the two extra powered outs would allow me to take advantage of the dual bi-amp inputs on a couple of the front speakers I've listed.
Any other suggestions you have would also be greatly appreciated!

I am not a fan of the bi-polar sound > the Definitive is good - however, it will not trump the HTD.
If I were to buy Definitive, I would buy the new Studio Monitor 55.

The choice is yours, if you decide to try HTD > they do have a return policy. I have used the Flat
Panel as a center, and it is a nice one.
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post #18 of 47
6/25/12 at 3:26pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by zieglj01 View Post

I am not a fan of the bi-polar sound >

Is the referring to the Def Tech BP series or to speakers that have the two-sets-of-inputs in general? (Wait, maybe the latter is called Bi-Amp.)
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post #19 of 47
6/25/12 at 3:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdg4vfx View Post

Is the referring to the Def Tech BP series or to speakers that have the two-sets-of-inputs in general? (Wait, maybe the latter is called Bi-Amp.)
I am talking about bi-polar design, where drivers are on the front and back of the
speaker cabinet. Bi-wire hook up to the speaker, does not change anything > and
bi-amping from the same receiver is a waste. A well designed/engineered speaker,
does not need any so-called help to sound better.
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post #20 of 47
6/25/12 at 4:09pm
Thread Starter 
Thanks for the clarification! Several posts I've read the last 3 days make more sense now.
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post #21 of 47
6/25/12 at 4:55pm
Thread Starter 
RANDOM …
- My gut agrees re larger drivers in fronts than the Mythos4 offers. (Esp. since the common-with-satellite-systems middle-low frequency gap seems to stick out to my ear so much.)
- Headphones not an option. I'm a movie buff (work in the Industry) and really like the immersive, spatial quality of surround (even at medium, late night volumes). Also movie nights, both for the kids or the dads, are a huge part of our social life ; )
- Did my comment/question re the mid-volume sound from towers make sense?
- Assuming there is no non-Energy center that would match well with RC-10 (the V6.2 and RC-70 towers look great too.)

CENTER:
My size restrictions on a center speaker are silly tight - 6" high, 4" deep, might get away with 4.5" deep. Not up for a re-design/new-furniture-purchase of the front room, it otherwise looks/works great as is.

After my research the right-sized center speakers that got the best reports were:
DT ProCenters 1000 (1" dome tweet, 2x 4.5" drivers/radiators)
DT Mythos3 center (1" dome tweet, 2x 4.5" drivers/radiators)
HTD Flat Panel Center (1" dome tweet, 4x drivers - 2x 2.5" & 2x 4", vented)

FRONTS:
Based on which centers I can use ...

DT StudioMonitor 55 (1" dome tweet, 6.5 driver/radiator)
HTD Level 2 Towers (1" dome tweet, 2x 5.25" drivers, vent)
HTD Level 3 Shelf (Kapton Ribbon Tweet, 6.5" driver, vent)

If anyone knows of another center-speaker that fits size-wise it would definitely open up my options for front speakers!
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post #22 of 47
6/25/12 at 4:56pm
Thread Starter 
Once again - mucho thanks for the feedback.
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post #23 of 47
6/25/12 at 5:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdg4vfx View Post

Once again - mucho thanks for the feedback.

The Level Three will not match up, with the Flat Panel center.
The dome and ribbon tweeters, are a mis-match.
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post #24 of 47
6/25/12 at 7:49pm
Thread Starter 
Totally makes sense ...

Think I'm ditching the Def Tech's. Been the plastic-ish/molded satellite route and want to try something new (as opposed to a more expensive version of the same).

Plan at the moment:
- Ask about the V-Mini-C center (with either RD-10 of V6.2 fronts) in the Energy forum. (A small-ish, underpowered center still worries me.)
- Then make a decision between the Energy and the HTD. (Going over to my friend's for another listen to the HTD.)

Also thinking I should go ahead and purchase surrounds before all the recently-read posts leak out of my head. So last questions ...

Is a triangular shaped (bi/dipole) surround speaker that much preferable to a regular bookshelf speaker as a surround? (Can't tell if dipole surrounds is the gimic-de-jour.)

Surround options seem to be ...

HTD:
Level 2 Surround pair $260 (tri-sided, bi/dipole)
Level 2 Bookshelf pair $200

Energy:
RC-10 pair $440 (seems like overkill?)
V-Mini pair $240
VS Surround pair $340 (tri-sided, bi/dipole)
CR-10 Surround pair $340 (tri-sided, bi/dipole)

Thanks again ('specially for the patience part)!
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post #25 of 47
6/25/12 at 7:59pm
^^^^
I am a big fan of monopole/bookshelf speakers, for surrounds.
However, you may prefer a bipole/dipole switchable surround.
Edited by zieglj01 - 6/25/12 at 8:11pm
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post #26 of 47
6/25/12 at 8:01pm
The RC-10s are $220 PER pair, not each, which is the lowest price I've seen this year on them. Definitely a better buy than the V Minis which have a much smaller driver.

The Veritas series is a much better speaker line than the CR/CF/CB. Don't even think about the CR-10s.

I use the VS Surrounds in bipole mode with RC speakers in the front sound stage, and it creates a more enveloping sound field in the rear versus direct radiating. Be sure you can place them, though. Maybe you need direct radiating (normal bookshelves). Blu-ray forum has some good tutorials explaining the differences:

http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=170720
http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=66471

There are some graphs about half way down each page showing various placement options if you want to skip ahead.
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post #27 of 47
6/25/12 at 10:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

The RC-10s are $220 PER pair, not each, which is the lowest price I've seen this year on them. .

Wow, yes it is $220 per pair and +1 for lowest price
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post #28 of 47
6/26/12 at 12:39pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

The RC-10s are $220 PER pair, not each, which is the lowest price I've seen this year on them. Definitely a better buy than the V Minis which have a much smaller driver.
The Veritas series is a much better speaker line than the CR/CF/CB. Don't even think about the CR-10s.
I use the VS Surrounds in bipole mode with RC speakers in the front sound stage, and it creates a more enveloping sound field in the rear versus direct radiating. Be sure you can place them, though. Maybe you need direct radiating (normal bookshelves). Blu-ray forum has some good tutorials explaining the differences:
http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=170720
http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=66471
There are some graphs about half way down each page showing various placement options if you want to skip ahead.

Thanks - going to read those now.
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post #29 of 47
6/26/12 at 5:49pm
Thread Starter 
Still digesting the surrounds mono/bi/di pole threads.

Decided to purchase (tryout) the HTD Level 2 towers and Flat-Panel center.
Primary consideration is that it seems to have the best center speaker I could find that would fit my space (without increasing the overall system price 5x-10x). While there are lots of conflicting opinions on numerous topics in the speaker threads, one of the basics everyone seems to agree on is the importance, for HT, of having a good performing center speaker that is well matched to R/L fronts. Plus I had a chance to hear it twice, for the price I really liked the sound.

Already hooked up the S10.3 - what an improvement, even with my old speakers ...

Also going to get a pair of RC-10's (only $210 for a pair!) and another S10.3 for a 2.1 system to use in either the bedroom or office ; )
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post #30 of 47
6/26/12 at 5:50pm
Thread Starter 
Much, much thanks for helping me out.

(A noob with web-access must be trying for you guys sometimes.)
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