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Sony-Panny OLED Tie-up Rumors Heat Up Again

post #1 of 30
Thread Starter 
http://sfgate.bdc.bloomberg.wallst.com/SFChronicle/Story?docId=1376-M5ZUWW6TTDS001-3T60U4OPC93HSMB9FEM8HGTO0D
Quote:
une 22 (Bloomberg) -- Sony Corp. and Panasonic Corp., Japan’s biggest makers of TVs, may announce an agreement next week to cooperate in making sets that use new organic light- emitting diode displays, company officials said.

The companies may issue a statement before their shareholder meetings June 27, the officials said, asking not to be identified because the plan is private.

The partnership would be the first between the main TV operations at the two companies, which are losing money as the strengthened yen erodes overseas earnings and as competition from South Korea’s Samsung Electronics Co. and LG Electronics Inc. intensifies. The two Korean companies have said they will introduce OLED models by the end of the year.
post #2 of 30
Japan, june 25, 2012 - Sony Corporation and Panasonic Corporation today announced that they have signed an agreement regarding the joint development of next-generation OLED panels and modules for TVs and large-sized displays.

http://panasonic.co.jp/corp/news/official.data/data.dir/en120625-6/en120625-6.html
post #3 of 30
One of these Japanese sets will be my first OLED set. Really glad this partnership has taken off.

Never buying Korean again.
post #4 of 30
post #5 of 30
Hopefully these Sonasonic OLED sets will be available by the time I need a replacement for my VT50 smile.gif
post #6 of 30
Or PanaSony. They might even be ready by the time I need a Kuro replacement. biggrin.gif
post #7 of 30
Thread Starter 
I commented on this in the OLED Technology Advancements thread. If they are able to commercialized "printed" OLED, which has been discussed for more than a decade and no one has come close to achieving, they will ultimately have the ability to drive costs down and compete. This is certainly the last hope for Sony and Panasonic in the TV business.
post #8 of 30
Hopefully this will let them not only compete, but under-cut Samsung and LG. I'd really hate to see Panasonic and Sony go the way that Pioneer did. (and Sony looks to be heading there first)

It sounds like this is going to be a lot like S-LCD, where they will each have their own displays, but share panels.
Kind of a shame, as I would actually love to see the results of a collaboration between the two companies.

Regardless of the price, I would actually be happy spending a good amount of money to buy a Sony or Panasonic display though, I've had nothing but bad experiences with Samsung and LG, and have heard nothing but bad things from other people I know that have bought LG or Samsung displays despite my recommendation to avoid them.


Does anyone know what this would potentially mean for 4K displays? As good as OLED might be, I'm not going to be replacing my current TV with another low resolution panel.
post #9 of 30
Thread Starter 
Honestly, this collaboration is so tepid, they haven't committed to a joint fab. Right now, it's a joint R&D effort to develop a production process for "printable" OLEDs. They will likely share a fab, but they aren't even there yet.

I'm not optimistic about any "undercutting" of anyone. It sounds like volume production from either of them is 2014 or later.
post #10 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

Hopefully this will let them not only compete, but under-cut Samsung and LG. I'd really hate to see Panasonic and Sony go the way that Pioneer did. (and Sony looks to be heading there first)
It sounds like this is going to be a lot like S-LCD, where they will each have their own displays, but share panels.
Kind of a shame, as I would actually love to see the results of a collaboration between the two companies.
Regardless of the price, I would actually be happy spending a good amount of money to buy a Sony or Panasonic display though, I've had nothing but bad experiences with Samsung and LG, and have heard nothing but bad things from other people I know that have bought LG or Samsung displays despite my recommendation to avoid them.
Does anyone know what this would potentially mean for 4K displays? As good as OLED might be, I'm not going to be replacing my current TV with another low resolution panel.

Um, a simple count of problem threads on AVS would say Panasonic is the one with more problems.

The longest problem threads are panasonic.
post #11 of 30
This is more watershed than most realise. In the past it was the japanese that pioneer the manufacturing of high end tech and Koreans/ Taiwanese follow with cheaper and inferior products

Now it is the Koreans pioneering the commercialisation of a new tech while the Japanese are followers. The irony is of course they were the R&D pioneers but gave up. Like rogo said, if they can't compete in OLED or Sony's so-called CLED or other newer display tech, then it is entirely possible that we won't have Japanese TVs by the end of this decade.
post #12 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by David_B View Post

Um, a simple count of problem threads on AVS would say Panasonic is the one with more problems.
The longest problem threads are panasonic.

The problems in those threads revolve around known limitations of the technology. If I were sit here and count how many complained about flashlighting/clouding and how many panels people go through would consume days of my time. Now, if you look at how many people are having early service repairs and constant issues with firmware and feature set functionality from say... Samsung panels (which I know you LOVE Samsung), one would have to say they suffer from QC more than any other major manufacturer.

Also keep in mind that AVS is but a small glimpse of real world results and claims. If we were to take polls taken by third parties such as CR seriously, it would indicate that Panasonic is the most reliable of the big players.
post #13 of 30
Samsung sells more than twice as many TVs as panasonic does, if you wish to compare samsungs entire line against panasonics, I can assure you samsumg has far less comlaints on this board then panasonic.

And as far as feature problems, once again, samsung has 10 times as many features as panasonic does.

Btw, samsung is fixing every tv that has the bad caps a supplier sold them. How many people that lost 5 years of picture quality on their V10s got panasonic to fix them?( the number rhymes with "nero")

You are just trying to spread panasonic fanboy dribble. It does't take but 3 seconds to see most problem threads in the plasma forum say "panasonic" in the title.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fanaticalism View Post

The problems in those threads revolve around known limitations of the technology. If I were sit here and count how many complained about flashlighting/clouding and how many panels people go through would consume days of my time. Now, if you look at how many people are having early service repairs and constant issues with firmware and feature set functionality from say... Samsung panels (which I know you LOVE Samsung), one would have to say they suffer from QC more than any other major manufacturer.
Also keep in mind that AVS is but a small glimpse of real world results and claims. If we were to take polls taken by third parties such as CR seriously, it would indicate that Panasonic is the most reliable of the big players.
post #14 of 30
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by David_B View Post

Samsung sells more than twice as many TVs as panasonic does, if you wish to compare samsungs entire line against panasonics, I can assure you samsumg has far less comlaints on this board then panasonic.

I agree with the first part of this. I'm not sure how it relates to the second part, which requires us to know how many people here have bought one or the other... But anyway, Samsung certainly sells more TVs than Panasonic and most work.
Quote:
And as far as feature problems, once again, samsung has 10 times as many features as panasonic does.

10x as many features? Really? So for every Panasonic feature there are 10 on Samsung? Maybe you meant "more" rather than 10x?

Incidentally, is anyone using the voice/gesture stuff? Probably about as many people are using the fancy Panasonic remote....
post #15 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by David_B View Post

Samsung sells more than twice as many TVs as panasonic does, if you wish to compare samsungs entire line against panasonics, I can assure you samsumg has far less comlaints on this board then panasonic.
And as far as feature problems, once again, samsung has 10 times as many features as panasonic does.
Btw, samsung is fixing every tv that has the bad caps a supplier sold them. How many people that lost 5 years of picture quality on their V10s got panasonic to fix them?( the number rhymes with "nero")
You are just trying to spread panasonic fanboy dribble. It does't take but 3 seconds to see most problem threads in the plasma forum say "panasonic" in the title.
You are using a very small sample size by relying solely on AVS. Again, a company like CR utilizes a wider demographic to poll their results and while I am not sure as their methodology, using common sense I would suspect they keep sample size of each manufacturer similar to have consistency across their results.
post #16 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fanaticalism View Post

You are using a very small sample size by relying solely on AVS. Again, a company like CR utilizes a wider demographic to poll their results and while I am not sure as their methodology, using common sense I would suspect they keep sample size of each manufacturer similar to have consistency across their results.

Actually I read 5 A/V forums, and all of them have at least a 1:4 ratio of Samsung to Panasonic problems.

Not a very small sample after all.
post #17 of 30
So back on topic...I find it really interesting what AVJ and HDJ has said about the OLEDs to be created by Sony and Panasonic. If he is correct that they can make the panel more efficiently, that hopefully means lower prices even though they're going to be a year late into the game.
post #18 of 30
He's comparing Samsung's current factory that is kicking out panels to some mythical "future" line Panasonic is just now in the testing phase with.

Samsung has their next gen line in the prep phase, and lots of future methods to produce larger panels that they are spending billions to develop.

Anyone that thinks Samsung spends billions to get to this point and Panasonic can jump right in and make a better set should probably not be listening to the Panasonic mouthpiece at HDJ. People that work for companies have a vested interest to pump up the hype.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcdo View Post

So back on topic...I find it really interesting what AVJ and HDJ has said about the OLEDs to be created by Sony and Panasonic. If he is correct that they can make the panel more efficiently, that hopefully means lower prices even though they're going to be a year late into the game.
post #19 of 30
Sony's fairly recent history of entering into marriages with other companies to jointly develop products does not inspire much confidence that their latest marriage will bear healthy offspring either. Panasonic has kept almost all their eggs in the Plasma basket for far too long. This looks like a case of two marathon stragglers thinking that the can run faster if they tie their legs together.
post #20 of 30
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by greenland View Post

Sony's fairly recent history of entering into marriages with other companies to jointly develop products does not inspire much confidence that their latest marriage will bear healthy offspring either.

Yep.
Quote:
Panasonic has kept almost all their eggs in the Plasma basket for far too long.

Yep.
Quote:
This looks like a case of two marathon stragglers thinking that the can run faster if they tie their legs together.

I don't think that's a fair analogy for how they got there, but sadly, I think your visual is very likely to describe the result.
post #21 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by David_B View Post

Actually I read 5 A/V forums, and all of them have at least a 1:4 ratio of Samsung to Panasonic problems.
Not a very small sample after all.

There have been at least two polls on AVS in the past few years asking the ratio of Panasonic Plasma owners vs Samsung Plasma owners, and that ratio was about 3:1 Panasonic over Samsung (which surprised me), so there are three times more Panasonic Plasma owners here than Samsung Plasma owners, and even though Panasonic's failure rate is a little lower than Samsung's, 3-times more owners means you'll see 3-times more complaints. Regardless, you personal recollections of hundreds of posts on several forums is not a scientific enough gathering of data to come to any meaningful conclusion, especially from someone who absolutely hates the Panasonic brand name and use every opportunity to bash them across various threads in various forums. That seems to be the primary reason why you even participate in the forums - to bash Panasonic.

I don't agree with you or believe your assertion that Panasonic has four times more problems than Samsung, especially considering your well known anti-Panasonic/Pro-Samsung agenda and long-held anger and feelings of personal victimization since your MLL rose way back in 2009. You were very disrespectful in the live chat during the VE shootout with all your Panasonic bashing as well as insulting D-Nice and other calibrators, and your well known hatred towards Panasonic and the resultant 4-year anti-Panasonic crusade proves you are incapable of being impartial or fair-minded on the issues. To the contrary, i see a lot more complaints about Samsung TVs than Panasonics, and i've owned two smaller Samsung LCD TVs that both went defective and Samsung was so useless in getting the first one repaired that i punted and returned the 2nd defective one instead of running that gauntlet again. So i've only owned 2 Samsung TVs that both broke, yet i've owned 6 Panasonic TVs that never broke. And i'm not even going to get into the Samsung PC monitor that developed double-vision or the Samsung laser printer that continually gets paper jams or two Samsung cell phones who's screens went dead or my SIL's $3,000 Samsung refrigerator that keeps dying and ruining her food. They make crap, plain and simple.

I sell to the professional A/V contractor/installer industry (corporate level, aerospace industry, airports, government agencies, and high-end residential) and all of my customers i've talked with over the years said the Panasonics were the most reliable, and that call backs to un-install the display for warranty work/returns were the lowest with Panasonic, closely followed by Pioneer, but much more prevalent with Samsung and LG even though they rarely install or encounter Samsung or LG displays. Now that Pioneer is gone, they all now recommend only Panasonic Plasmas based on past history of reliability. Three local TV repair shops i've spoken with all say pretty much the same thing - Panasonics are better-built and more reliable, and the company is easier to deal with than Samsung is.

It's sad that something as minor as the black levels rising on a TV set four years ago can cause you such seething deep seated anger and hatred and misery that you feel the need to embark on a 4 year crusade. I also have a 2009 Panasonic and while i'm not happy that the MLL rose, it is what it is and i still greatly enjoy watching the TV at night in a dark room and not let the risen black levels ruin my life.
post #22 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by greenland View Post

Sony's fairly recent history of entering into marriages with other companies to jointly develop products does not inspire much confidence that their latest marriage will bear healthy offspring either. Panasonic has kept almost all their eggs in the Plasma basket for far too long. This looks like a case of two marathon stragglers thinking that the can run faster if they tie their legs together.

Based on my reading of past reports on tech advances and products pending release, I would sadly say this assessment is correct. Sony has been sitting on it's past accomplishments and savings. The last truly great product I thought Sony made was their final Bravia DLP rear projection TV, which my brother owns (and it looks fantastic to this day, very film-like). Panasonic has put so much time and money into Plasma that it seems to be behind in the newer tech.

Both Samsung and LG have BIG leads in the development of the newest TV tech. I feel sad for Sony & Panasonic. Their executives seem to lack vision. When the OLED TVs from Samsung & LG hit an affordable price, they will be in command of the TV market. OLED is brighter, thinner and all-around better quality in picture than plasma. I don't see how that tech can remain profitable in the coming few years. It's a shame that the best plasma (and likely the best plasma that will ever be) was the old Pioneer Kuro line as I think Plasma had more room to improve it's picture.

I personally can't wait to have an affordable (under $2.5k) OLED available as it will be my next TV.
post #23 of 30
No polls in the last 2 years show that. Link it.

BTW, it's OK if you want to be another Panasonic sycophant , I don't mind it you stick up for a brand you make more money on. I rarely listen to the pablum salesmen like you or any insiders throw out, because you have a vested interest in selling what makes you the most money.

Feel free to put down the lower margin panel as much as you want, only proves to me you are first a salesman second an impartial consumer.

BTW, at least I was smart enough to not believe other salesmen and Panasonic that the "problems" with the MLL had been taken care of.

Tell me, exactly how many Panasonics with that problem did YOU buy back? Or did you see Panasonic buy back?

I'm not anti-panasonic, I'm pro-consumer. And while salesmen like you kept knowingly selling Panasonics that changed overnight for 3 years, even AFTER D-nice told everyone it did that, other's have been happy tooling along with other brands that didn't do that.

I love how you minimize a problem that had THE LONGEST thread in the plasma forum BTW. It seems as if many many actual consumers would take issue with you minimisation of the problem.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RandyWalters View Post

There have been at least two polls on AVS in the past few years asking the ratio of Panasonic Plasma owners vs Samsung Plasma owners, and that ratio was about 3:1 Panasonic over Samsung (which surprised me), so there are three times more Panasonic Plasma owners here than Samsung Plasma owners, and even though Panasonic's failure rate is a little lower than Samsung's, 3-times more owners means you'll see 3-times more complaints. Regardless, you personal recollections of hundreds of posts on several forums is not a scientific enough gathering of data to come to any meaningful conclusion, especially from someone who absolutely hates the Panasonic brand name and use every opportunity to bash them across various threads in various forums. That seems to be the primary reason why you even participate in the forums - to bash Panasonic.
I don't agree with you or believe your assertion that Panasonic has four times more problems than Samsung, especially considering your well known anti-Panasonic/Pro-Samsung agenda and long-held anger and feelings of personal victimization since your MLL rose way back in 2009. You were very disrespectful in the live chat during the VE shootout with all your Panasonic bashing as well as insulting D-Nice and other calibrators, and your well known hatred towards Panasonic and the resultant 4-year anti-Panasonic crusade proves you are incapable of being impartial or fair-minded on the issues. To the contrary, i see a lot more complaints about Samsung TVs than Panasonics, and i've owned two smaller Samsung LCD TVs that both went defective and Samsung was so useless in getting the first one repaired that i punted and returned the 2nd defective one instead of running that gauntlet again. So i've only owned 2 Samsung TVs that both broke, yet i've owned 6 Panasonic TVs that never broke. And i'm not even going to get into the Samsung PC monitor that developed double-vision or the Samsung laser printer that continually gets paper jams or two Samsung cell phones who's screens went dead or my SIL's $3,000 Samsung refrigerator that keeps dying and ruining her food. They make crap, plain and simple.
I sell to the professional A/V contractor/installer industry (corporate level, aerospace industry, airports, government agencies, and high-end residential) and all of my customers i've talked with over the years said the Panasonics were the most reliable, and that call backs to un-install the display for warranty work/returns were the lowest with Panasonic, closely followed by Pioneer, but much more prevalent with Samsung and LG even though they rarely install or encounter Samsung or LG displays. Now that Pioneer is gone, they all now recommend only Panasonic Plasmas based on past history of reliability. Three local TV repair shops i've spoken with all say pretty much the same thing - Panasonics are better-built and more reliable, and the company is easier to deal with than Samsung is.
It's sad that something as minor as the black levels rising on a TV set four years ago can cause you such seething deep seated anger and hatred and misery that you feel the need to embark on a 4 year crusade. I also have a 2009 Panasonic and while i'm not happy that the MLL rose, it is what it is and i still greatly enjoy watching the TV at night in a dark room and not let the risen black levels ruin my life.
post #24 of 30
The direction of this thread has diverged from the original topic regarding Sony + Pany OLED manufacturing development. Furthermore the rumor has been confirmed. Samy versus Pany is pointless drivel.
post #25 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by RandyWalters View Post

There have been at least two polls on AVS in the past few years asking the ratio of Panasonic Plasma owners vs Samsung Plasma owners, and that ratio was about 3:1 Panasonic over Samsung (which surprised me), so there are three times more Panasonic Plasma owners here than Samsung Plasma owners, and even though Panasonic's failure rate is a little lower than Samsung's, 3-times more owners means you'll see 3-times more complaints. Regardless, you personal recollections of hundreds of posts on several forums is not a scientific enough gathering of data to come to any meaningful conclusion, especially from someone who absolutely hates the Panasonic brand name and use every opportunity to bash them across various threads in various forums. That seems to be the primary reason why you even participate in the forums - to bash Panasonic.
I don't agree with you or believe your assertion that Panasonic has four times more problems than Samsung, especially considering your well known anti-Panasonic/Pro-Samsung agenda and long-held anger and feelings of personal victimization since your MLL rose way back in 2009. You were very disrespectful in the live chat during the VE shootout with all your Panasonic bashing as well as insulting D-Nice and other calibrators, and your well known hatred towards Panasonic and the resultant 4-year anti-Panasonic crusade proves you are incapable of being impartial or fair-minded on the issues. To the contrary, i see a lot more complaints about Samsung TVs than Panasonics, and i've owned two smaller Samsung LCD TVs that both went defective and Samsung was so useless in getting the first one repaired that i punted and returned the 2nd defective one instead of running that gauntlet again. So i've only owned 2 Samsung TVs that both broke, yet i've owned 6 Panasonic TVs that never broke. And i'm not even going to get into the Samsung PC monitor that developed double-vision or the Samsung laser printer that continually gets paper jams or two Samsung cell phones who's screens went dead or my SIL's $3,000 Samsung refrigerator that keeps dying and ruining her food. They make crap, plain and simple.
I sell to the professional A/V contractor/installer industry (corporate level, aerospace industry, airports, government agencies, and high-end residential) and all of my customers i've talked with over the years said the Panasonics were the most reliable, and that call backs to un-install the display for warranty work/returns were the lowest with Panasonic, closely followed by Pioneer, but much more prevalent with Samsung and LG even though they rarely install or encounter Samsung or LG displays. Now that Pioneer is gone, they all now recommend only Panasonic Plasmas based on past history of reliability. Three local TV repair shops i've spoken with all say pretty much the same thing - Panasonics are better-built and more reliable, and the company is easier to deal with than Samsung is.
It's sad that something as minor as the black levels rising on a TV set four years ago can cause you such seething deep seated anger and hatred and misery that you feel the need to embark on a 4 year crusade. I also have a 2009 Panasonic and while i'm not happy that the MLL rose, it is what it is and i still greatly enjoy watching the TV at night in a dark room and not let the risen black levels ruin my life.

It is possible to respond to a comment and not be condescending and snotty. You might be respected by others around here, but from what I've seen from you so far, I'd say you need to work on your manners a bit.
post #26 of 30
Japan Inc. has gotten what it deserves. The Japanese took over the American TV industry over a period of time between the 1970's to the late 1980's in a similar way. By the 1990's it was all over for the American TV industry. The Koreans have learned from the best how to take over an industry. The chickens have come home to roost for the Japanese. Sorry, no sympathy from me here.
post #27 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tazishere View Post

Japan Inc. has gotten what it deserves. The Japanese took over the American TV industry over a period of time between the 1970's to the late 1980's in a similar way. By the 1990's it was all over for the American TV industry. The Koreans have learned from the best how to take over an industry. The chickens have come home to roost for the Japanese. Sorry, no sympathy from me here.
Didn’t the Japanese manufacturers take over due to superior products? The Korean LG & Samsung are taking over because they make the cheapest products. If they were superior in quality, I would have no problem with the success they’re having.
post #28 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

Didn’t the Japanese manufacturers take over due to superior products? The Korean LG & Samsung are taking over because they make the cheapest products. If they were superior in quality, I would have no problem with the success they’re having.

Actually; The Japanese manufacturers pioneered the entrance approach into the US market that The Koreans have more recently emulated. At the outset the Japanese products were also cheap and considered to be of poor quality. We see the Koreans now moving up the quality and price scale in a similar fashion, both in electronics and automobiles. They are doing to Japan what their manufacturers did to ours. China will in turn do the same thing to the Korean Manufacturers in the not too distant future.
post #29 of 30
"Sony sold over 10,000 TriMaster EL professional OLED monitors


OLED devices OLED monitor OLED production Sony
We just found out that back in April 2012 Sony announced that it has sold over 10,000 professional OLED monitors in the TriMaster EL range. Sony introduced the monitors in April 2011 in Europe and already sold over 2,000 units there. When we discussed OLEDs with Sony's OLED product manager back in February 2012 he indeed said that the OLED fab at Nagoya Japan is running at full capacity."

http://www.oled-info.com/sony-sold-over-10000-trimaster-el-professional-oled-monitors

Use the link to watch the video clip.
post #30 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by greenland View Post

They are doing to Japan what their manufacturers did to ours. China will in turn do the same thing to the Korean Manufacturers in the not too distant future.
Nothing is set in stone.
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