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SEOS12/2512 Build - Page 8

post #211 of 353
NICE! You WILL be amazed at the sound when you get them going.....the only down side I've found - your ears get "spoiled" rather quickly.

I hope you have good subs to keep up with them!
post #212 of 353
Very nicely done dude. Fantastic!
post #213 of 353
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by zhillsguy View Post

NICE! You WILL be amazed at the sound when you get them going.....the only down side I've found - your ears get "spoiled" rather quickly.
I hope you have good subs to keep up with them!

I'm looking forward to being spoiled. biggrin.gif

On subs, I have a 12" Paradigm sub that is ok, but I plan to build a 15" sub (maybe two) from Erich's growing sub kits: http://www.diysoundgroup.com/speaker-kits/subwoofer-kits.html

Thanks for all your help, Zhillsguy!!
post #214 of 353
Java,

I'm not sure what your space limitations are, but from experience with high efficiency mains, even a LARGE sealed enclosure for that HO will not keep up with your mains even if you're only just looking for the same level in bass as broadband..

I can't model from home - but from the web, that driver is 12dB down at 20hz in 100L sealed. If we believe PE's sensitivity claim, you're looking at 78dB 1 watt / 20hz from that sub... That's ~~ 40 watts to roughly match your mains at 20hz in SPL. At 300 watts, you're only looking at ~~ 101dB peak w/o power compression. I'd speculate ~~ 6dB compression given the coil in that driver. 95dB MAYBE. Looking at the motor and build of that driver.... With a BL^2/Re of only 65, I'd expect a more realistic 85-86 dB SPLo... Which means it may be ~~ 90/91dB tops.... Maybe..... And it will SOUND COMPRESSED. Your new mains are Excellent speakers, and DESERVE real bass that keeps up wink.gif

Have you thought about tapped Horns? Effortless BASS. Lil-Mikes littleWrecker does 88dB 1 watt/20hz (with a peak around 16hz of 91dB 1 watt - REAL MEASURED groundplane) and uses a similarly priced driver.. (street) which I happen to matches its specs...

Something to think about....
post #215 of 353
4x 15" sealed subs will play pretty nicely with those new mains.

wink.gif
post #216 of 353
Still only ~~ 86dB 20hz.... (real) 1 watt.. 2 LilWreckers? are VICIOUS wink.gif (they BREAK things wink.gif )
post #217 of 353
hmm...i find that surprising.

how did you come to those numbers?

my 4x sealed subs hit much harder that your numbers suggested.
post #218 of 353
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dB-Kicker View Post

Java,
I'm not sure what your space limitations are, but from experience with high efficiency mains, even a LARGE sealed enclosure for that HO will not keep up with your mains even if you're only just looking for the same level in bass as broadband..
I can't model from home - but from the web, that driver is 12dB down at 20hz in 100L sealed. If we believe PE's sensitivity claim, you're looking at 78dB 1 watt / 20hz from that sub... That's ~~ 40 watts to roughly match your mains at 20hz in SPL. At 300 watts, you're only looking at ~~ 101dB peak w/o power compression. I'd speculate ~~ 6dB compression given the coil in that driver. 95dB MAYBE. Looking at the motor and build of that driver.... With a BL^2/Re of only 65, I'd expect a more realistic 85-86 dB SPLo... Which means it may be ~~ 90/91dB tops.... Maybe..... And it will SOUND COMPRESSED. Your new mains are Excellent speakers, and DESERVE real bass that keeps up wink.gif
Have you thought about tapped Horns? Effortless BASS. Lil-Mikes littleWrecker does 88dB 1 watt/20hz (with a peak around 16hz of 91dB 1 watt - REAL MEASURED groundplane) and uses a similarly priced driver.. (street) which I happen to matches its specs...
Something to think about....

dB,

Thanks very much for your input.

For what it's worth, I was looking at the Titanic, not the HO. I'm still finishing up my final 2 speakers, so I haven't had time to dive into the sub(s), but I did a quick calc on the spl via: http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html. Assuming a sensitivity of 88.7 and a 500 watt amp, the spl is 112 dB. That's just shy of reference, right?

I realize that their are excursion limits and low hz level/spls to take into account. Still learning...

On the horns, I did look extensively at Bill Fitzmaurice's designs. Specifically, the Tuba HT. Frankly, I'm worn out with all of the building and was looking forward to nice and easy kit from Erich. Maybe we can talking him into making a Tuba HT kit? rolleyes.gif
post #219 of 353
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dB-Kicker View Post

Still only ~~ 86dB 20hz.... (real) 1 watt.. 2 LilWreckers? are VICIOUS wink.gif (they BREAK things wink.gif )

dB,

I'm still learning, but the 86dB is the sensitivity, right? Given enough watts (500?) you can get much higher dB's, right?
post #220 of 353
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by smokarz View Post

4x 15" sealed subs will play pretty nicely with those new mains.
wink.gif

WAF wouldn't be a problem, but the bank account would stop me. wink.gif
post #221 of 353
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dB-Kicker View Post

Still only ~~ 86dB 20hz.... (real) 1 watt.. 2 LilWreckers? are VICIOUS wink.gif (they BREAK things wink.gif )

OK, dB. I've perused some of your Sub builds. YOU'VE GOT TO BE KIDDING!! wink.gif

Is this what you mean my a LilWrecker??

post #222 of 353
Quote:
Originally Posted by Java View Post

OK, dB. I've perused some of your Sub builds. YOU'VE GOT TO BE KIDDING!! wink.gif
Is this what you mean my a LilWrecker??

Actually, that one's called the AlpineGeist..... and a pair of them were debuted @ Tom Nousaine's home. I was there... good times!

Ep4000's, one per cabinet was the amplifier compliment, with the amps running in stereo. One driver per channel. Each cabinet has two dual voice coil 12" Alpine car audio drivers. MIni-DSP to pull down some out of band peaks, and provide some basic eq'ing.
post #223 of 353
Thread Starter 
Prep/Paint Tips

I'm sure the veterans can add/edit my tips, but I learned some stuff that I will pass on to fellow noobs.
  • Bondo. I tried to use woodfiller, but I could never get it right. Always left a small gap. In case you haven't read in the forum, Bondo works great on MDF. You can get it at Home Depot. The bondo tip I learned was to go a little light on the hardener. That gives you more time to spread out. Takes longer to dry, but worth it.
  • Sanding. Get a good orbital sander if you don't already have one. You'll be doing a lot of sanding (get goggles and masks, too). As far as sanding Bondo, just remember that you'll be sanding off almost all of the Bondo you put on except whats in the crevasse/gap. You'll probably freak like me when you are sanding down the Bondo and get new cracks and holes. Don't worry. You only care about the final layer. It usually turns out nice and smooth.
  • Primer. Use oil based primer. Water based primer and MDF don't mix well. I tried a couple of different primers, but found Zinsser Cover-Stain worked the best. I used a spray can for the primer. I usually did 2-3 coats. Make sure you sand down between coats and on the final. Use your hand as a guide. You want it smooth.
  • Roller. I tried to use a rattle can for the paint and it looks like crap. My wife suggested using a foam roller instead. I was skeptical, but it worked out great. On paint, I used a quart can of Rustoleum oil based flat black.

I hope that helps. Last bit of advice is to use patience in this step. I was getting antsy to get finished and ended up redoing a box. In the end, you'll be looking at the finish a long time. If you are like me, I will forever be staring at a goof that no one else can sees.
Edited by Java - 8/18/12 at 8:41am
post #224 of 353
Very good tips Java.

I've learned that you really need to be patience and take your time. Otherwise, you'll end up re-doing your works, and things turned out like crap.
post #225 of 353
Lilwrecker was discussed a bit here, but both radman12 and I have been buried with the rest of our lives and we never got around to finishing the documentation. I have a basic sketchup set of plans that I'd be happy to share if there is interest. Each cabinet uses a single Kicker CVX 15. These were designed to slip into the spot that radman12 has behind his screen wall. I could not make them any larger, or I would have. As it was, we nearly needed a shoehorn to get them into place. Even with two strong guys, moving these around was no simple task. Appliance dolly FTW!!!

The 1W, 1M, groundplane response looks like this:



The 400W, 1M, groundplane response looks like this:



I ran out of amplifier (iNuke3000DSP) and driver somewhere near 1000 watts to the cabinet during sine wave testing, and since I can't be sure which limit I hit first, I don't want to place any blame. There were no audible driver complaints, just a decrease in SPL.

While testing in room, I exceeded the limits of my Omnimic (positioned at the LP) long before we ran out of amplifier (EP 4000, bridged into 4 ohms) or subs. During the in-room testing and EQ, we were measuring SPLs north of 120 dB at the seats, distortion % was still in the single digits. Later that evening while watching a bunch of different movies, we only were hitting the mid teens. As it turned out, radman12 had issues with the level of his sub pre-out in his Marantz.

When he fixed that, he found another 10 dBs.

I've been by a couple times since and we've stretched them out a bit. Believe me - it is an experience. Can't wait to build my theater and conjure up something similar.
Edited by lilmike - 8/18/12 at 12:07pm
post #226 of 353
Thread Starter 
Thanks, Lilmike

That thing is a beast!!

I'm very intrigued by the whole tapped horn approach. It's high efficiency design is in the same spirit as the SEOS/E-wave designs.

That being said, I don't know if I'm up to another big saw dust project right now. Going through your and other tapped horn projects, it seems like a pretty big undertaking. Particularly the airtight aspect.

I'm looking a Erich's flat packs and thinking how nice that will be. I noticed your Anarchy flat packs. I initially discounted it because of the 6" driver, but now I don't know. Given the price and size, I could make a couple of these. How would you compare two of these vs one 15" sealed sub?

Oops. I see it's out of stock on DIY Sound Group. Any word on restocking?

Thanks, again!!
post #227 of 353
Quote:
Originally Posted by Java View Post

Thanks, Lilmike
That thing is a beast!!
I'm very intrigued by the whole tapped horn approach. It's high efficiency design is in the same spirit as the SEOS/E-wave designs.
That being said, I don't know if I'm up to another big saw dust project right now. Going through your and other tapped horn projects, it seems like a pretty big undertaking. Particularly the airtight aspect.
I'm looking a Erich's flat packs and thinking how nice that will be. I noticed your Anarchy flat packs. I initially discounted it because of the 6" driver, but now I don't know. Given the price and size, I could make a couple of these. How would you compare two of these vs one 15" sealed sub?
Oops. I see it's out of stock on DIY Sound Group. Any word on restocking?
Thanks, again!!

Little subs are little subs. They have their place, but they have their limits. I use a pair of T-6s loaded with W-8 740Cs currently, and they are barely adequate with my bottom-shelf econowave mains. I can just hit reference level at 30 Hz in my room, and things are starting to sound strained. I want bigger subs. Sadly, they don't fit in the room currently. So...I'm building a new room.

With the mains you have? I honestly think you would be disappointed with anything less than 4 of the Anarchy flat packs, and even that would be the bare minimum. 4 T-6s would be a decent start, but if you're going to do that, why not just build a pair of proper ones? Seriously - the Anarchy drivers are not cheap, and the W6-1139 is even more expensive. Neither driver wants to see more than 100 watts, and they don't make a lot of dBs with a watt, so you need a lot of subs just to keep up with your mains. If I recall, 4 cabinets at full tilt barely get to reference level. They sound good, and go reasonably low, they just are not that loud.

If you're wanting to avoid the complicated build, and are willing to give up a few Hz of extension, these are also a proven design with the CVX 15. I think I have dimensioned plans for these somewhere, as I helped chassmain with his project as it evolved. These are close to 95 dB with a watt in, and will take an honest 1000 watts (in band) before excursion gets excessive. Certainly, there will be some compression at high drive levels, but I'd expect one of these to easily make 120 dB at a meter, groundplane, perhaps a bit more. A pair in a room would be an experience. Yes, they leave the sub 20 Hz material on the table, but the cabinet consists of 8 boards plus some bracing. I could build a pair in an afternoon.

The builds are not that hard, just use an accurate saw guide and take your time. Accurate, straight cuts and PL premium = airtight builds.
post #228 of 353
Those are some serious subs.

I need to buy a bigger, much bigger, house.

biggrin.gif
post #229 of 353
Quote:
Originally Posted by lilmike View Post

Sadly, they don't fit in the room currently. So...I'm building a new room.

That's the spirit, LilMike!
Hey, I just found my new tag-line.
post #230 of 353
Thread Starter 
Damn you, LilMike and dB wink.gif

You got my interest fired up on tapped horns. I guess a little more saw dust won't hurt. rolleyes.gif

I don't think I have the room (8') for Chassmain's designs but I think I can fit a F-20 (maybe two eek.gif).

LilMike, I'm still wading through your 1300+ posts in your F-20 thread, but I have a couple of questions.
  • Single vs Dual. I'm assuming that TH subs act just like any other sub, so I need to think about multiple subs for room mode optimization. Correct?
  • Driver. I'm not seeing the MWF 15 offered anywhere. Is the Dayton DVC 15 a good substitute?
  • Dimensions. Per below, I should have roughly 24" of width on my front wall after the new mains are finished (toe-in may impact that). Although you label the width as 30" and the depth as 20", if I lay it out "sideways" (mouth pointed to audience), that should work, right?

Front Room (before new LCR's).
post #231 of 353
Quote:
Originally Posted by Java View Post

Damn you, LilMike and dB wink.gif
You got my interest fired up on tapped horns. I guess a little more saw dust won't hurt. rolleyes.gif

Now that's the spirit...this is the DIY section....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Java View Post

I don't think I have the room (8') for Chassmain's designs but I think I can fit a F-20 (maybe two eek.gif).

Can you lay them down flat as a front stage? Looks like that room is pretty wide.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Java View Post

LilMike, I'm still wading through your 1300+ posts in your F-20 thread, but I have a couple of questions.
  • Single vs Dual. I'm assuming that TH subs act just like any other sub, so I need to think about multiple subs for room mode optimization. Correct?

F-20 is a front horn, not tapped. Regardless, two should work better than one, and two should be enough for most rooms.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Java View Post

  • Driver. I'm not seeing the MWF 15 offered anywhere. Is the Dayton DVC 15 a good substitute?

Sure, that will work, The Reference HF is another known good driver.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Java View Post

  • Dimensions. Per below, I should have roughly 24" of width on my front wall after the new mains are finished (toe-in may impact that). Although you label the width as 30" and the depth as 20", if I lay it out "sideways" (mouth pointed to audience), that should work, right?

Should work fine. Could also lay them on the floor as a front stage with the mouths in the corners.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Java View Post


Front Room (before new LCR's).
post #232 of 353
Quote:
Originally Posted by PassingInterest View Post

That's the spirit, LilMike!
Hey, I just found my new tag-line.

Been planning this remodel for about 4 years now. Designing a house is a LOT of work....

Plans are in their final stages. Had to keep the house within certain limits to ease the permitting process and eliminate a lot of other requirements. Still, I have room for a dedicated theater in the basement. It will be about 220 square feet, ~13 X ~17. Not huge, but more than enough to enjoy a movie in. Plenty of room for a 120" screen, and I should be able to fit a decent sub or two in there.
post #233 of 353
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lilmike View Post

Can you lay them down flat as a front stage? Looks like that room is pretty wide.

I can't with the center channel. You are seeing a "before" picture of my front wall. When the new SEOS LCR's are done, the center channel will be a full stander around 30" right up to the screen edge.

Is the 8' length fixed? I have about 7.5' under the soffit. Stand them up?

Last, how does that design compare to the F-20 performance wise?

Thanks!
post #234 of 353
Quote:
Originally Posted by Java View Post

I can't with the center channel. You are seeing a "before" picture of my front wall. When the new SEOS LCR's are done, the center channel will be a full stander around 30" right up to the screen edge.
Is the 8' length fixed? I have about 7.5' under the soffit. Stand them up?
Last, how does that design compare to the F-20 performance wise?
Thanks!

Ahhh, OK.

Chassmain's are end-firing. That won't stand up so well.
post #235 of 353
"Sadly, they don't fit in the room currently. So...I'm building a new room." -lilmike

:-)
post #236 of 353
"Is the 8' length fixed? I have about 7.5' under the soffit. Stand them up?"

the length isn't fixed. it just raises the bottom corner by a couple hz, but now you are chopping off frequency response in the mid-twenties. at least shoot for 20hz.

if you are really on a budget and have the room, the f20's are a nice choice.
post #237 of 353
Another option is a pair of THT LPs - they are 6' long, and like to be corner loaded about 18" from a boundary - which, stood on end, works out to exactly where your soffit is. More information in my THT LP build link in signature.
post #238 of 353
If you need a couple MFW's, I might have some left overs. I'd have to double check though. I stopped shipping them out when I got down to around 5-6 left just in case anyone had issues. I think one guy did out of 250. But the ones left over were in dirty looking boxes. I think they were the boxes sitting on top of the pallets and dust from the Eminence factory had settled on them. I can't recall what that were in that group buy. I think $70 plus $2 for shipping material? I can't recall right now.
post #239 of 353
Thread Starter 
Drum Roll, Please...

I have finally finished. All three are done and hooked up.

Massive improvement over my Paradigms. There is an effortless wall of sound now.

I tested out on some surround music and movies. Sound is fabulous. Given some of the concern about my design not being ported and comments that you need a sub with these mains, I wasn't expected too much bass. I was wrong. Huge bass. Keep in mind I'm migrating from bookshelf speakers (Paradigm Titans) and have a decent sub.

I still have a lot of tweaking and dialing in to do. I tried my Pioneers MCACC room eq and it made speakers sound a bit nasally or honky. When I disable the eq, it went away.

I've got all of the REW gear (Sorry, BWaslo. I bought the gear before I knew of your involvement in OmniMic). I guess I will start measuring each individually. Any suggestion on how to measure all three? Just feed pink noise and measure FR?

Below are some quick shots. I'll continue with the build comments/photos later.

All Three Complete


In the same spirit of Erich's Before/After landscaping shots, I give you...

Before


After
post #240 of 353

Some mighty fine looking speakers.

 

IMO start with the center, and match the mains as best as possible.  Get your delay,phase, and impulse set for the fronts and go from there.  I have had good results too when using MCCAC by going into the Manual EQ and tinkering if I find something out of whack with the REW measurements.  Thats one of the things I like about MCCAC over Audyssey. 

 

Also start thinking about reflections from the back of the room.  The higher energy(Controlled Directivity and High Efficiency) of those back reflections will come into play.  They will be high gain and early arrival enough to the primary sound to muddle things.  IOW treatments will help considerably.  I don't see any are they just hidden well? 

 

Very nice job. 

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