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SEOS12/2512 Build - Page 9

post #241 of 353
Mighty fine, indeed. Well done, sir!
post #242 of 353
Great stuff! Respect.
post #243 of 353
java, what do you have them crossed at currently?
post #244 of 353
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NicksHitachi View Post

Some mighty fine looking speakers.

IMO start with the center, and match the mains as best as possible.  Get your delay,phase, and impulse set for the fronts and go from there.  I have had good results too when using MCCAC by going into the Manual EQ and tinkering if I find something out of whack with the REW measurements.  Thats one of the things I like about MCCAC over Audyssey. 

Also start thinking about reflections from the back of the room.  The higher energy(Controlled Directivity and High Efficiency) of those back reflections will come into play.  They will be high gain and early arrival enough to the primary sound to muddle things.  IOW treatments will help considerably.  I don't see any are they just hidden well? 

Very nice job. 

Thanks much, Nick.

I'm a noob, yet again, in the REW area. I'm assuming your are meaning set all of the center delay, phase, etc. via REW and then manually set the adjustments in MCCAC, right? Do you do everything pass through (i.e., REW sends tones) or do you play pink noise and measure FR?

On treatments, nope. I don't have any yet. That is DIY project #1,274. wink.gif I know I need treatments. What you don't see in the photo is a support column just outside of the shot on both sides. It sticks out about a foot and is ~8' from the front wall. I'm sure it is reeking havoc on the reflections. For obstacles like that, I'm assuming I do for a full treatment (floor/ceiling, OC703, etc), right? Then deal with the rest of walls on case by case?
post #245 of 353
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by PassingInterest View Post

Mighty fine, indeed. Well done, sir!

Thanks!!

That's like a paint by numbers kid getting the nod from Picaso. wink.gif
post #246 of 353
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by zheka View Post

Great stuff! Respect.

Thanks, Zheka. Couldn't have done it without you!!
Edited by Java - 8/23/12 at 9:19am
post #247 of 353
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

java, what do you have them crossed at currently?

Crossing at 80hz. Was thinking about lower them a little to see how they play.
post #248 of 353
Quote:
Originally Posted by Java View Post

Crossing at 80hz. Was thinking about lower them a little to see how they play.

sounds good to me biggrin.gif The speakers look great too btw. I forgot to mention that. FWIW, check out ats acoustics. Super cheap acoustic panels, since that should be priority #1 now, not #1,273 (hint hint)
post #249 of 353
Quote:
Originally Posted by Java View Post

Drum Roll, Please...
I Given some of the concern about my design not being ported and comments that you need a sub with these mains, I wasn't expected too much bass. I was wrong. Huge bass.

Told ya!.......my test boxes are the same volume, just not as tall but deeper. The 2512 kicks like a mule. I'm actually quite surprised when i see so many posts looking for a different woofer to work with the SEOS 12 when the 2512 works so well for so little.
post #250 of 353
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mayhem13 View Post

Told ya!.......my test boxes are the same volume, just not as tall but deeper. The 2512 kicks like a mule. I'm actually quite surprised when i see so many posts looking for a different woofer to work with the SEOS 12 when the 2512 works so well for so little.

Yep. Thanks for steering me straight!!
post #251 of 353
Great work Java. The 2512 is a good midrange or high midbass woofer. IMO it is best used when excursion is kept under control like how you are doing with the sealed box HPF'd around 80hz. It will definitely give you that punch feeling in the 80-200hz range and does well over the rest of its range too. For the money it is great.

I think the reason people were searching for an alternative was because the prices nearly doubled last year for this woofer and it was no longer such a great value. Now it is back to being a steal.
post #252 of 353
Once I figure out how to set up a photo gallery on the site, yours can go right up at the top! They look great.
post #253 of 353
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

Once I figure out how to set up a photo gallery on the site, yours can go right up at the top! They look great.

Cool. Thanks.
post #254 of 353
Thread Starter 
Final Build Steps

To close out the build for those that are interested, I will continue the thread with the final steps.
post #255 of 353
Thread Starter 
Screw Inserts - Fail



I don't recommend using screw inserts. I used them on my last two boxes, but had to ditch them. Short story is they work great going in, but not coming out. If you don't ever care about removing the drivers, then go ahead and use them. If you think you will ever want to remove the drivers, you may want to try a different approach.

The longer story is that on my first box, I used lock washers and wing nuts. Given I'm used a removable back panel, that worked fine. After installing my speaker spikes with screw inserts, I thought I may want to use them on the drivers so I don't have to open up the box to potentially tighten in the future. I used a little wood glue on the threads and all seemed good, but I realized that my screws were too long (at least the non-threaded area) so I started backing out the screws. Or should I say tried to. 7 out of the 8 inserts spun out. It makes sense (now it does, at least) that the threads work in one direction (hold it tight going in) but not the other. Hitting the non-threaded part of the screws didn't help matters...

A barbed knock-in insert should work fine, given they aren't thread in a certain direction. I couldn't find any local for my screws.
post #256 of 353
Thread Starter 
Driver Gaskets

If you followed the thread, you may remember that I'm outer baffle is 1/2" thick which is too thick for the SEOS (`.30"), so I needed to build up the depth with speaker gaskets. I ended up using two layers of gaskets. I put on layer on the guide and one on the baffle.

I used PE's gasket tape: http://www.parts-express.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=260-542. It is fantastic to work with. I was skeptical on how tape would navigate corners, but it worked perfect. Highly recommended!!

As note, I also used the gasket tape on the woofer cutout, but didn't add to the woofer. I realize that I should have added another layer to even out, but the 2512 has a pretty thick frame which sticks out from the baffle and already has a gasket, which I didn't want to mess up with the gasket tape.

Gasket Tape on SEOS


Gasket Tape on Baffle
post #257 of 353
Thread Starter 
Driver Mounting

Again, my "neanderthal" approach to mounting the driver was to use lock washers and wing nuts. Given the back was open, I could easily reach around and grab the wing nut and tighten from the front.

The downside of this approach is that I may have to open up the back to tighten the bolts if they wiggle loose in the future. Hopefully the lock washers will keep them tight.

Drivers Mounted
post #258 of 353
Thread Starter 
Crossover Installation

After I wired up the drivers (did it before I mounted them), I hooked the wires up to the crossover and then test the impedance. The all generally bounced around 7 ohms.

To mount the drivers in the box, I used Zhillsguy’s tip of using Velcro. This was much easier than screwing around with stand offs. I used one package (2 strips per) of “industrial” Velcro per board. Spaced out, the strips are thick enough to keep the board off of box bottom. I put the two pieces (male/female) together, then pealed off the backing, slapped on the crossovers, then wedged the boards inside the boxes and then once positioned, pealed off the final backing and pressed in place.

Once all of that was done, I secured the driver wires with duct tape. I thought about using zip ties, but duct tape worked fine.

Crossover Testing


"Industrial" Velcro


Velcro Mounted on Crossover Board


Installed and Secured

Edited by Java - 8/25/12 at 9:59am
post #259 of 353
Thread Starter 
Weather Stripping

To seal the back panel, I used 3/4" wide 5/16" thick rubber foam weather stripping for the back panel seal.

Weather Stripping Tape


Back Seal
post #260 of 353
Thread Starter 
The Pink Stuff

Now it's time to stuff the boxes. Since I have sealed boxes, I chose to go ahead and use Fiberglass. I got a roll of 32 feet of R-13. I went ahead and got kraft faced. Although you don't use the facing, it's easier to handle.

The steps:
  • Glue. Spread out glue (I used wood glue) on the area to be covered.
  • Measure. I found it easier to do this in small pieces, so I measured each "chunk" used a box cutter to cut the fiberglass, and pealed off the insulation from the facing. I found that it was easier not to cut the facing. It just took more time and you really didn't need to cut it. See note below about measuring the back panel.
  • Press in place. Another benefit of the window bracing is that it make nice little pockets to hold the fiberglass. I just kept the boxes upright and pressed the fiberglass in place

Fiberglass


Glueing the Back Panels. Note that I measured were the frame and bracing was so that I give space to close the back panel. I also made a space for the terminals.


Padded Back Panel


Packed Box

Edited by Java - 8/25/12 at 10:19am
post #261 of 353
Thread Starter 
Closing up the Box

Now it was time to close up the box. This is were I found out that I didn't take the weather stripping thickness into account when I put in my panel framing. I measured in 3/4" for the thickness of the panel, but forgot that the weather stripping was around 1/4". So, the back panel sticks out a bit. It is sealed and no one will see, but still...

I used a ton of screws with washers (to keep from sinking in the mdf) to seal it up. Also, note that I screwed the panel to the bracing. Remember to mark the back were the bracing is as a guide before you close it up.

Seal Back
post #262 of 353
Thread Starter 
Speaker Spikes

I used Dayton's floor spikes: http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=240-717. Pricey, but very well made.

Also, remember that I was trying to achieve a 5 degree tilt and used a 3/4" mdf strip on the front.

For the back spikes, since they mounting hole penetrates the box, I wanted to seal it. Dayton suggested using silicon sealant “RTV” in the holes, but I didn't want a permanent seal and was concerned about the drivers (sealant fumes), so I made a gasket out of rubber. I just traced around the spike and then put it between the spike and box. Seems like a good seal.

Gasket Cutting


Spikes Installed (sorry for all the dust)
post #263 of 353
Thread Starter 
Q&A

I had some questions come in that I thought was useful to address here.


Do you happen to have a link to where you got the wrap for the horn? Was the purpose of the duct tape just to keep the wrap stuff on?
The link was here: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1417294/seos12-2512-build/180#post_22304446. The wrap is "rope caulk" also know as Mortite (generic like Kleenex). You can find it at Home Depot and Lowes in the weather stripping section.

The duct tape (I used Gorilla Tape) was to seal the rope caulk. The caulk may dry out over the years and the tape should hold the stuff on. Again, the rope caulk is an optional step. Given the thickness of the SEOS, it may not be necessary.

What wood glue did you use on the box? Any screws/nails or just the glue?
I used Tightbond III, although it was overkill. I believe the only difference between II and III is that III is waterproof. I used two 16oz. containers for the three boxes.

As far as screws, I was originally going to uses screws, but a friend lent me his clamps.

I could've sworn I'd seen this, but now I can't find it either, what'd you end up doing for paint? They look amazing in your pictures!
Thanks. I went for a "black hole" look since I'm using a front projector, so I went flat black. Flat black is much easier to make look good than stain or high gloss. At least in my case. I used a quart can of Rustoleum flat black with a foam rubber roller. Detailed tips: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1417294/seos12-2512-build/210#post_22318116

Which binding posts/terminal cups did you end up using? Were you satisfied with them?
I used these Dayton terminals: http://www.parts-express.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=091-1245. I chose single terminals over cups because the singles only needed a 1/4" drill hole. I was prepared to seal the terminals with rubber washers, but they didn't need it. You hammer them in, so they are very tight.

Yes. Very satisfied with them.


Let me know if you all have any other questions.
post #264 of 353
Excellent job! Nice write-up.

Now what are you doing for the surrounds?
post #265 of 353
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mobeer4don View Post

Excellent job! Nice write-up.
Now what are you doing for the surrounds?

Thanks.

For surrounds, I'm going with BWaslo's Malcolm design. I'm going to use this to mount/tilt the boxes: http://www.parts-express.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=182-392

Just waiting patiently (not really wink.gif) for Erich to update the inventory for me to buy two Malcolm kits: http://www.diysoundgroup.com/plastic-seos-12/seos-speaker-kits/seos-dayton-ds4-kit.html
post #266 of 353
Nice find on the mounts! And tremendous speakers. Did you ever do measurement graphs?

JSS
post #267 of 353
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by maxmercy View Post

Nice find on the mounts! And tremendous speakers. Did you ever do measurement graphs?
JSS

Thanks.

No measurement graphs, yet. I have the REW equipment, but haven't had the time/knowhow to crank some graphs.

Any suggestions? Do and in-room RTA with pink noise fed to fronts or do speaker by speaker with full REW? Thanks
post #268 of 353

Hi Java,

 

I've done some reading on measuring speakers with REW and others.  I'm no expert but once my SEOS speaks are done my intent was to measure in an open area(yard) with speaker on its back pointing up.  I am going to suspend the mic about a meter above the speaker.  This will incorperate into the measurement the speaker being against the front wall of my theater but wont account for the floor, ceiling, or side wall bounce, but IDK that I am interested in measuring that anyways.

 

Basically reflections will limit how low you can effectively measure.  In room, you can gate the measurement, which will clean up the response but limit resolution and also limit your lower end.  Midbass is the hardest IMO to accurately measure.

post #269 of 353
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NicksHitachi View Post

Hi Java,

I've done some reading on measuring speakers with REW and others.  I'm no expert but once my SEOS speaks are done my intent was to measure in an open area(yard) with speaker on its back pointing up.  I am going to suspend the mic about a meter above the speaker.  This will incorperate into the measurement the speaker being against the front wall of my theater but wont account for the floor, ceiling, or side wall bounce, but IDK that I am interested in measuring that anyways.

Basically reflections will limit how low you can effectively measure.  In room, you can gate the measurement, which will clean up the response but limit resolution and also limit your lower end.  Midbass is the hardest IMO to accurately measure.

Thanks, Nick. Interesting tip on setting the speaker on its back. Never thought of that...

What do you mean by gating the measurement?
post #270 of 353
Thread Starter 
Noob Testing...

Here are my first attempts at REW measurements.

These are all in room using the center speaker only. I tested listening position (9.5') and 1ft (between woofer and WG).

As note, I used the multichannel inputs to my AVR. My AVR does not have bass management, so I believe this approach defeated the EQ setting (i.e., the 80 hz crossover, etc.). I'm assuming that is a good thing for a beginning testing, but I would like to start measuring as set up. Any thoughts on how to measure with EQ enabled?

Last, I'm sure I screwed something up with REW, so please point out any failings and/or additional tests/views needed.

Thanks

Center Speaker at LP [SPL & Phase]


Center Speaker at LP [SPL]


Center Speaker at LP [Waterfall]


Center Speaker at 1ft [SPL & Phase]


Center Speaker at LP [SPL]


Center Speaker at LP [Waterfall]
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