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Monoprice RedMere HDMI cables - Page 2

post #31 of 323
My,my,my! Don't you have an attitude?
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post

...I keep seeing this all-wire-is-optically-alike and all-wire-is-audibly-alike nonsense...
Well, you didn't see it in this thread. Why don't you take your rant somewhere more appropriate? Of course, if you have some objective information to share, we would love to hear it.

Yes, cables differ considerably in parameters that affect performance, including impedance consistency, skew, cross talk, etc.. The point is, though, that as long as the received signal is close enough to the transmitted signal, no data is lost. If data is lost, because of the encoding method used for HDMI, you get one or more pixels that are just wrong. If you get a few of them, you see sparkles. More, lines of sparkles. Enough, no picture. What you don't get is the kind of effects that you can get with analog signals, like differences in hue, contrast, sharpness, etc. And even with the worst, cheapest HDMI cable, if the received signal is just good enough, no data is lost and the picture will be identical to that produced by the best, most expensive HDMI cable. If you don't understand that, then you don't understand a thing about HDMI.

One could argue about HDMI audio being less than ideal. But that is due to how it is encoded on the same TMDS pairs that transmit the video than differences in HDMI cables. The same thing holds as for video. If the signal is just good enough, no data is lost.

Now, if you were an early adopter of monoprice's Redmere cables, it is possible that the cables you had were indeed crap. Monoprice acknowledged that they had a problem with some and offered to replace them. That doesn't mean that all cables incorporating Redmere technology are crap, or for that matter that the current monprice products incorporating Redmere technology are crap.
Edited by Colm - 11/28/12 at 11:17pm
post #32 of 323
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post

Don't know how I missed this one. Hm. The same b.s. you read on CNET. I tried those cables. They're crap. I returned them next day. HDMI is second-rate to begin with, but I keep seeing this all-wire-is-optically-alike and all-wire-is-audibly-alike nonsense passed on as guru wisdom. Not true. Period.

Glad you stepped over here from the video calibration threads. Unlike where you are discussing how to tune Sony LCDs, we're not even talking about something that can be tuned here. We're talking the ability to send 1s and 0s from one end of a cable to the other.

There are indeed "crap" cables out there. Many of them live on eBay and those cables generate bit errors at higher bandwidths. However, if you find two certified high speed cables then the bits that go in one end are guaranteed to be the same bits that go out the other end. If you compare two certified high speed cables to each other and there is no damage with the cables, then the same bits are being transmitted across the cable successfully. Nobody seems to argue about ribbon cables or other methods of transmitting digital data across a wire. Why would HDMI be different?

How about next time providing us your knowledge and 1) explaining what cables you are discussing, 2) why did you return them? 3) explaining how they are different (if you can) and 4) providing a rational explanation or speculation as to why there are differences? With TV calibration there are subjective things, in this case we're just talking about bits. They are either 1s or 0s. There is nothing that can be done that makes the 1s straighter or the 0s more round. And, subjective evaluation, while required for video calibration since everyone's perspective on what is a good picture is different (at the very least, slightly different), it means nothing with determining bit errors or even timing. Now the perceived effects of bit errors or jitter is subjective but that isn't what we are discussing here.

For what it is worth, I agree with you that many flat panel calibrations are horrible (particularly in the stores) and have spent many hours tuning/calibrating our LCDs and projectors. I can't wait for OLEDs to become a reality in the home to get the same black levels back that we used to have with CRTs. But again, that's a completely different subject than whether 1s and 0s get across a wire correctly.

And that is true. Period.

So how about turning your rant into something more useful? The choice is yours...
Edited by alk3997 - 11/29/12 at 9:13am
post #33 of 323
Quote:
Originally Posted by Colm View Post

If you aren't currently getting sparkles or worse, it won't do a thing for you.
post #34 of 323
Quote:
Originally Posted by Colm View Post

If you aren't currently getting sparkles or worse, it won't do a thing for you.

I should clarify that I don't currently have HDMI in my theater, my old projector didn't have it and was DVI. So I need to buy an HDMI cable now and I was trying to figure out if RedMere improved transmission over long runs or if it allowed for the same run with a thinner cable. That way I can buy the right one.
post #35 of 323
Let me reprhase that. If you wouldn't be getting sparkles or worse with a passive HDMI cable, it won't do a thing for you, other than possibly allow you to reduce the size of the cable required. One of the detrimental things that happens to a signal as it travels down a cable is that the corners of the square wave get rounded off. What the Redmere chip on the receiving end does is to attempt to square up the waveform so that it looks as much like the original as possible. That doesn't fix everything detrimental that happends to the signal but helps to fix one. Because the chip is programmed for the particular cable by the manufacturer, it is more successful at it than add on equalizers. What it won't do is make a picture that doesn't have sparkles or worse better in any way.

BTW the way DVI ad HDMI transmit video are identical. If you are going to be transmitting the same content at the same bit rate, and you aren't getting sparkles or worse, all Redmere will likely do for you is to allow you to reduce the cable size. The caveat is that HDMI performance is a function not just of the cable and bit rate, but also all the electronics involved and the environment. Change one factor, and it is a new ball game. In this case, besides changing the cable, you are also changing the electronics. FWIW you might be able to get away with just using a DVI-HDMI adapter with you existing DVI cable.

There are passive certified high speed HDMI cables that can handle any signal you can throw at it up to about 25'. Redemere allows for actibve certified high speed cables at longer lengths.
post #36 of 323
I think I get what you're saying Colm. Does using a keystone pass through mess with the signal if the run is the same? In other words does a 30ft run + 6ft work the same as a 36ft (well 35ft based on sold lengths) cable? And do you know if RedMere would work with the keystone or can it not receive power from the first half the run up to the keystone jack?
post #37 of 323
Any connection will affect the signal a bit. The good thing is that because this is a digital signal if the resulting signal is still just good enough, the picture will be identical to that produced from a perfect signal. Keystone connectors pass all 19 lines of the HDMI cable. There will be a little added resistance on the 5V line. But it shouldn't be enough to affect the Redmere chip. Of course, you will never know for sure until you try it.

Just be aware that the Redmere chip is programmer to correct for high frequency losses within that cable, not losses anywhere else in the chain.
post #38 of 323
I am interested in replacing my current cables with redmere mainly because of the decrease in thickness. I understand if the ones I have work then I shouldn't replace but the thing that concerns me about my thick cables is possible damage to ports because of how thick and unmaneuverable they are. I am not looking for quality increase. so to sum up can these redmere cables keep same quality at reduced thickness to my current monoprice premium flat hdmi cables?
Edited by extrafuzzyllama - 12/5/12 at 1:04pm
post #39 of 323
Quote:
Originally Posted by extrafuzzyllama View Post

I am interested in replacing my current cables with redmere mainly because of the decrease in thickness. I understand if the ones I have work then I shouldn't replace but the thing that concerns me about my thick cables is possible damage to ports because of how thick and unmaneuverable they are. I am not looking for quality increase. so to sum up can these redmere cables keep same quality at reduced thickness to my current monoprice premium flat hdmi cables?

Yes, they can.
post #40 of 323
Quote:
Originally Posted by alk3997 View Post

Yes, they can.

thanks for reply. I will place my order now.
post #41 of 323
Did you think about using port savers instead?
post #42 of 323
^^^

that is what i do... easy enough to do, and no need to run new cables...
post #43 of 323

I want to use RedMere HDMI cables only because they are thin and I can manage the cable mess better.  Can I use 2 RedMere HDMI cables in this configuration?

  • Cable 1: HDMI out from my blu-ray player to HDMI in of my AV receiver with the active end connected to the AV Receiver.
  • Cable 2: HDMI out from my AV receiver to HDMI in of my TV with the active end connected to the TV.

 

Both runs are short (6 or 10 feet) so I know I don't need the RedMere for distance I only want it for the thinness of the cables.

 

When I asked this through online chat with monoprice technical support they said it wasn't recommended and that having 2 RedMere cables in the same chain could cause equalization interference.

 

thanks, Murray
 

post #44 of 323
^^^

i think they are correct...

i'd just use 28awg cables from tartan (they do not have ferrite cores to get in the way)... the size difference in cable stock isn't THAT much...

ymmv...
post #45 of 323
Just ran two redmere cables to my projector and working great. A primary run and a back-up in case the primary cable ever gets damaged or stops working. Figured it was easier to do during the build than 5 or 10 years from now having to potentially rip through a bunch of drywall to fix it and run a new cable.
post #46 of 323
^^^

go ahead and run yourself some cat6 (a couple runs) as long as you have it open...

conduit would be even better... smile.gif
post #47 of 323
Just 'seconding' the suggestion about conduit. It really does make things easier and gives you a way to add a cable years later when the newest 100gbps multimedia cable can only be implemented with fiber optic cables that don't exist yet is released.
Edited by alk3997 - 12/13/12 at 12:29pm
post #48 of 323
^^^

andy, if i ever get a custom built house someday, the insides of the walls will look like a giant habitrail... smile.gif
post #49 of 323
It really is the way to do it - although I can tell you a horror storry about the subcontractor our contractor got to put in the conduit. Our frame had passed inspection and after they were done the inspector failed our frame. Only time I've heard of a frame un-passing. The contractor then had to reframe parts of the house.

Basically the trained chimps the sub got to install the conduit thought that every time their drill stopped they had hit a nail. What really happened is that their drill bits were so dull the wood stopped them. And, everytime they stopped they started a new hole another 2-inches to the right or left. Swiss cheese...

Luckily 99% of the other people installing conduit know how to do it right the first time. My one regret with the build is that I didn't use more conduit (wish I had one going into the kitchen).
post #50 of 323
This has been asked a few times already on this thread, (using keystone jacks with RedMere), but no one has answered it. I've also sent an email to support@monoprice.com and gotten no response at all.

What I want to do is go from my device (a powered 4x1 HDMI switch) to a keystone jack (this will be about a 6 foot cable) then connect a 50 ft RedMere cable from the back of the keystone jack to the TV.

Will this work? There are several possible answers as far as I can see:

1) No it won't work because the Redmere needs to be connected directly to the device to draw power from it.

2) Yes the Redmere cable will still be able to draw its power through the 6ft cable preceding it.

3) You need the 6ft cable to also be a RedMere cable to pass the power from the device to the long Redmere cable.

4) ??? something else ??

Any help will be much appreciated.

Thanks.
post #51 of 323
I think we can eliminate #3. I could see potential problems going Redmere to Redmere.

I think you're safe with a good keystone. If it would work with a 25' high speed passive HDMI cable, it should work with Redmere. I have not yet tried that combination but have heard of others who have.
post #52 of 323
Quote:
Originally Posted by alk3997 View Post

I think we can eliminate #3. I could see potential problems going Redmere to Redmere.
I think you're safe with a good keystone. If it would work with a 25' high speed passive HDMI cable, it should work with Redmere. I have not yet tried that combination but have heard of others who have.

Good to hear that you've heard of others doing this. I think I'm going to give it a shot. I'm going to test everything before installing it. If it doesn't work I'll do away with the 6 ft cable and the keystone and just run the RedMere cable from the switch through a low voltage plate into the wall then directly to the TV. Not as pretty, but a good backup plan. I'll report back here after I'm done with it, (probably late next week).

Thanks.
post #53 of 323
Just a quick update on using a RedMere with a keystone jack. Monoprice finally replied to my email this morning. It sounds like they are not sure it will work either. I guess there is no way to know other than try it out. This was the reply I received:

"Thank you for contacting us here at Monoprice.com, in regards to your question, it is quite likely with a long run and through a switch and a keystone you may experience signal loss, i would recommend trying to run the 50ft redmere cable directly from source to device if you have any signal loss issues"
post #54 of 323
I'm gonna give it a shot too. I've got quite a mess of an HDMI signal chain: 6' standard or redmere cables from sources to receiver / 30' redmere cable or 35' 22awg cable to coupler or extender / 15' 36 awg redmere cable (projector scissor lift) / right angle port saver into projector.

I've already had good success for the last week with HTPC - 60' redmere cable - receiver - 35' 22awg cable - 28 awg port saver - projector. Theater updates included a scissor lift for the projector, and relocation of all equipment to the adjacent office closet.

Still putting together what's looking like a $200 order. Unfortunately there's no other way but trial, error, success, RMA. I'll just hook up everything within a few feet of each other so I won't have to unravel cable(s) unnecessarily. The 60' redmere is already a winner, so I'll be keeping that for a run to the main TV downstairs.

Here's hoping I'll find a combination that works. I'll report back with my findings. Wish me luck!
Edited by zacjones - 12/28/12 at 10:26pm
post #55 of 323
Absoutely - Good luck!

If it will make you feel any better, imagine the cost of your order if you (not that you would) purchased the cables in BB...
post #56 of 323
OK, I did my install and the keystone jack did not work for me with the 50' RedMere cable. I ended up needing a 12' cable to go from where I put my equipment to my wall plate with the keystone jack and the 50' RedMere going from the keystone jack to the TV. I got no picture, no sound, nothing. I ended up doing plan B. I ran the 50'Redmere directly from the equipment, through a low voltage wall plate, and all the way to the TV. It works perfectly. 1080p and sound, no problems.

So it appears that the cables work well, but need to be run directly from the device to the TV. Maybe the 12' cable going to the keystone jack was too long and it would have worked with a shorter one, but I didn't try it.
post #57 of 323
I wanted to report back my findings and testing with my new Monoprice Redmere cables. I got the white ones and purchased 2 x 6' and 2 x 10' cables for players to recievers and a 15' foot cable for an inwall run in our bedroom.

The Redmere cables all work perfectly fine with all the newer equipment that I have (Sony 55" LED TV, Yamaha Aventage reciever, etc)

Where I am having issues is with older DVI equipment. I have an old Viewsonic TV with DVI only and an old Yamaha reciever whch has HDMI but it must be an early implementation as it supports 1080p but no audio. I suspect that the old HDMI and DVI ports (ones that do not have HDCP) probably do not provide the necessary voltage to activate the chip. First the 15' cable was tested successfully direct to the Sony TV and Aventage reciever. Also successful from my Panasonic BD to Aventage reciever and passive cable from reciever to TV.

While I did read some rumblings of DVI working, I suspect t must be a newer implementation.

15' cable from Old Yamaha to Viewsonic (via Monoprice HDMI to DVI adaptor) and passive cable from BD to reciever = no dice
15' cable from BD to reciever and passive cable from reciever to TV = no dice

If my theory is correct and neither the TV nor reciever provide the necessary voltage signals to power the Redmere chip, I wonder if I get a new TV (perfect excuse to get a new one!) would the 15' Redmere cable work from the TV directly to the reciever and I'll just use passive cables from the reciever to my sources?
post #58 of 323
Are these cables flexible enough to bend downward so that they are hidden behind the rear panel when connected to TVs that have horizontal HDMI ports on the sides like the Panasonic ST50?



I was think of purchasing one or more since the ones I'm using (http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10240&cs_id=1024008&p_id=3992&seq=1&format=2) are very visible. I thought about just getting some 270 degree port protectors, but I might try the redmere. Maybe just one and run it from my AVR to the TV and then use the ferrite core ones to connect my devices to the AVR.

I'm referring to this one:
http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10240&cs_id=1025503&p_id=9889&seq=1&format=2
post #59 of 323
You have to be careful with how tight you bend an HDMI cable. It the cable is stressed near the connector, the connections between the cable and the connector may fail. If it is bent too tightly elsewhere, the geometry of the cable can be upset and affect its performance. A 2" bend minimum radius is probably safe with a 28 AWG cable like you have now. But I bet you would have a hard time achieving that near the connector because of the ferrites. The Redmere cable you are considering is 36 AWG, so you could safely achieving a bit tighter bend radius. You might want to ask monoprice what the minimum bend radius for it is.
post #60 of 323
Garrick – Active cables tend to have the ‘equalizer’ circuitry at the Sink (Display) end of the cable but pull power from the Source end of the cable so can’t see a new TV being the solution to your problem!

Smart thinking though wink.gif

Joe
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