MadVR, Intel IGP, and RAM Speed

Intel HD Graphics 1000/2000/2500

Intel HD Graphics 3000

Intel HD Graphics 4000 ? I wrote a quick summary in a post. Because of extremely poor search engine, I can't find it. Yes, it can handle all contents with DDR3-1600 (maybe a dropped frame every couple of minutes)

 

Overall Intel iGPU is not good enough yet for madVR. Let alone the full range RGB level issue and not so good 23.796Hz. We will have to wait for Haswell.

A content with 60 frames per second (1080i60, 480i60 [video], 760p60, 1080p60; interlaced contents are actually 60 fields per second, but tuned to 60 frames after deinterlaced) has to be processed quickly in a short period of 1 / 60fps = 16.67 ms. I see "rendering time" be often ~14.5 ms with Core i5-3570K. This indicates that GPU is not good enough yet. If GPU is overcloked to 1350MHz (under "GT OverClocking Support" in BIOS) and DDR3-2133 is used (that works only under a Z68/Z77/Z75 motherboard), the rendering time can be reduced to ~12.5ms. But you may see BSOD.

Edited by renethx - 6/27/12 at 12:09am

Does AMD offer a better AIO solution? Does the E-450 with the Radeon HD 6320 graphics have the oomph to support full madvr processing? I would think the graphics side would be plenty, but the cpu itself is pretty weak.

Renethx -

Thank your for your post and benchmarks. I studied the metrics you linked to for the HD 2000 using the Celeron G530 and here are my conclusions from that post.

My configuration:

i3-2100 HD2000 Graphics
DDR3 1333
H67 motherboard
default clock
madVR, medium quality (Bilinear/Bicubic 50/Bicubic 50), in full screen exclusive mode
Intel QuickSync

My conclusion for my configuration (I had to make some assumptions as your metrics were with an overlocked G530 with faster memory):

- My only issue as far as adequate rendering performance would be SD interlaced Video output to 480p60. I should have adequate rendering performance for SD Film, HD Film, HD i Video, HD p Video.

- If I never watch SD content, my configuration rendering performance will be adequate. It looks like there may even be some headroom to increase some from medium quality to a higher quality for HD film and interlaced video.

- With slower memory than DDR-2133 you had a CPU utilization issue with HD i video. But that was with a Celeron G530. My assumption is that with a much faster CPU such as my i3-2100 I would not see that CPU utlization problem.

So my conclusion from your data (again I needed to make some assumptions since it was not with an i3-2100 and my memory) is my configuration should have adequate performance at medium settings if SD video is not a requirment. Since I'm an HD snob and don't watch SD content, it would be fine for me to use madVR and MPC-HC and there might even be headroom to increase quality from medium.

Is my conclusion reasonable?

Nice question. I'll be interested in the answer too.

It is my understanding that w/o overclocking DDR 1333 is the fastest you can go. I have DDR 1600 but I don't think the full speed of the RAM is utilized in my system, which is an i3-550 with HD2000 graphics, MadVR at default and no QuickSync (don't think it works with HD2000).

 

MadVR does not use CPU to process video, it uses GPU exclusively. Roughly there are three stages of video processing:

 

- Decoding by GPU's fixed function: AMD's UVD, Intel MFX, NVIDIA's VP (you can also use CPU to decode video, of course) [The decoder and video memory are important here.]

- Copying back decoded frames to the system memory, then uploading them to the video memory

- Processing by madVR/GPU's shader units [The number of sharder units matters here.]

 

Performance of each GPU at each stage depends on the video format played back. There are six major video formats in NTSC countries:

 

	Origin	Main medium	Format	Output to renderer	Frame interval
SD film	film	DVD, SDTV broadcast	480i60	480p24	41.708 ms
SD video	video	DVD, SDTV broadcast, camcorder	480i60	480p60	16.683 ms
HD film	film	BD (and HDTV broadcast up to pulldown)	1080p24	1080p24	41.708 ms
HD interlaced video	video	BD, HDTV broadcast, camcorder	1080i60	1080p60	16.683 ms
HD progressive video (720)	video	HDTV broadcast, camcorder	720p60	720p60	16.683 ms
HD progressive video (1080)	video	camcorder	1080p60	1080p60	16.683 ms

 

Test clips I used. A quick summary:

 

	Radeon HD 6310 / 6320 (Zacate)	Radeon HD 6410D (Llano) / 6450	Radeon HD 6530D / 6550D (Llano)	Radeon HD 6570 and higher	Radeon HD 7xxx	Intel HD 1k / 2k / 2.5k / 3k	Intel HD 4K	GeForce 520=610 / 620 / 430 DDR3-1400	GeForce 430 DDR3-1600 / 440=630 and higher
Decoder	NG for 1080p60	Good	Good	Good	Good	Good	Good	Good	Good
Copy back / Upload	NG for HD	NG for 760p60 / 1080p60	NG for 720p60 / 1080p60	NG for 1080p60	Good	Good	Good	Good	Good
Shader units	NG for any but SD film	NG for video	Good	Good	Good	NG for video	OK	NG for video	Good
To sum up	NG for any but SD film	NG for video	NG for 720p60 / 1080p60	NG for 1080p60	Good	NG for video	OK	NG for video	Good

 

AMD A6-3500 Llano APU with HD 6530D is the cheapest ($70) all-in-one solution (except for the camcorder formats). AMD Trinity APU, to be released in October, should fix the copy-back/upload problem. If you want to use a discrete graphics card, then Intel SNB/IVB + Radeon HD 7750 is perhaps the best solution. GeForce GT 430 DDR3-1600 is also good (and $40 cheaper), but the driver UI sucks (how).

Edited by renethx - 2/11/13 at 10:10am

Renethx -

In the HD2000, G530, performance metrics you provided the average rendering time for HD i and HD p video are well below the 60fps frame interval (not so for SD video).

So wouldn't it be more accurate to say "NG for SD video" in your chart? From your performance metrics it looks like rendering time would be acceptable for HD i and HP p video which is the essence of my question above.

Intel HD 1k/2k + DDR3-1066/1333 is good only for films at madVR high quality. The results with Core i3-2100 + DDR3-1333 + high quality FSE:

 

	deinterlacing time	rendering time (should be less than 16.7 ms)
SD video	4 ms	34 ms
HD interlaced video	6 ms	32 ms
HD progressive video (720)	NA	39 ms
HD progressive video (1080)	NA	17 ms

Edited by renethx - 6/27/12 at 12:13pm

Thanks Renethx. My initial question, which has not yet been directly addressed, concerned the performance capabilities of my configuration at medium quality settings based on the data you provided for the HD2000 at the start of this thread. From my original post:

"So my conclusion from your data (again I needed to make some assumptions since it was not with an i3-2100 and my memory) is my configuration should have adequate performance at medium settings if SD video is not a requirment. Since I'm an HD snob and don't watch SD content, it would be fine for me to use madVR and MPC-HC and there might even be headroom to increase quality from medium.

Is my conclusion reasonable?"

So 720p takes more time to render than 1080p?

Actually renethx what I would really appreciate is to see this exact chart at madVR medium quality settings if you the information available. That is the results with Core i3-2100 + DDR3-1333 at madVR medium quality settings.

The results with Core i3-2100 + DDR3-1333 + medium quality FSE:

 

	deinterlacing time	rendering time (should be less than 16.7 ms)
SD video	2 ms	22 ms
HD interlaced video	6 ms	21 ms
HD progressive video (720)	NA	22 ms
HD progressive video (1080)	NA	9 ms

 

GPU struggles with deinterlacing. So if "yadif" (software deinterlacer) is on in LAV Video Decoder,

 

	deinterlacing time	rendering time (should be less than 16.7 ms)
SD video	NA	19 ms
HD interlaced video	NA	9 ms
HD progressive video (720)	NA	22 ms
HD progressive video (1080)	NA	9 ms

 

So this is good for SD/HD films and 1080i/p60 videos; not good for SD videos and 720p60 videos.

Perfect, thank you so much for the information!

 

Yes. No luma up/downsampling is necessary for 1080 contents in a 1080p display, but luma upsampling is necessary for 720 contents.

Okay. Is there a way to "pass the 720p through to my AVR untouched so it can use its internal upscaler to 1080p?

Even very little of the content I watch is 720p except some LiveTV I guess and I'm not seeing any stutter or frame drops on LiveTV so I'm not sure if this is an issue. Sure the processor may be leaving a few frames behind but I'm not noticing it, I guess.

 

Set the desktop resolution/refresh rate to 1280x720 / 59Hz.

Renethx said: "MadVR does not use CPU to process video ...... you can also use CPU to decode video, of course" . I'm confused!

Thanks!

So then what happens with 1080i LiveTV content? Currently I have the display settings in windows to 1920x1080 to match the resolution of my HDTV.

Of course, every 1080i/p video will be downsampled to 720p.

Even if MavVR is set to switch to 1080p23/24 it won't be displayed that way because windows is set to 1280x720?

That won't work. I'm not seeing any stutter problems on LiveTV but some 720p mkv's do have some stutter. Now I know why.

Looks like the proper GT430 is in my future. I know you've recommended a particular card to others before but I don't know where the link is? Quite and fanless would be good.

Well, switching the desktop resolution to 720p59 when you play a 720p59 MKV, then back to the default resolution 1080p59 after finishing the playback is easy as well, assuming you already know madVR's framerate token.

 

1. In madVR settings > devices > "your display" > display modes > "list all display modes madVR may switch to:", add "720p59" (without quotes).

 

2. Add "720p59" (without quotes) somewhere in the name of a 720p59 mkv file.

 

That's it.

Okay, so if I set windows to 1280x720, MadVR will still override that for 1080p23/24 content then?

I've seen MadVR switch from 1080x60 (59) (windows default) to 1080x24 and I don't have 1080p23 in the file name as it shows for a few seconds on my Samsung HTDV what refresh rate it is receiving when the refresh rate is changed. Isn't MadVR using the mkv's metadata to do this? Won't it do this for 720p59 content too?

This might be the way to go, because my AVR will ignore the request to upscale to 1080p content that already is 1080p, I think. Guess I need to post that over in the Denon XX12 thread.

If you want to add a discrete card, look at ASUS GT 430 fanless, or HIS HD 7750.

Fortunatelly my HTPC can accept a high profile card. Wasn't there a sparkle card that you recommended previously? I haven't been able to find the fanless one.

Is the solution in my previous post do-able?

I see that it has a low profile adaptor. I'm not sure if the heatpipe on that thing will fit under my drive cage. It is going to be tight.

 

If the native resolution of your display is 1920x1080, then you should set the default desktop resolution to 1920x1080 59Hz. MadVR accepts the token 23p (switching to 1920x1080 23Hz) as well as 720p59 (switching to 1280x720 59Hz) and 720p23 (switching to 1280x720 23Hz), or whatever. If you want to change not only refresh rate but also resolutions, you will have to add it in the list "list all display modes madVR may switch to:" as explained above.

I think I may have used 720p60 and that is why it isn't switching. So if it is set to 720p59 is "luma upsampling necessary for 720 content" using 720p output to my AVR and letting it upsample to 1080p to pass it to the HDTV?

BTW, Rene your knowledge is an incredible resource. So happy to see that you are back on avs..