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FiOS to begin enforcing CableCard restrictions - Page 2

post #31 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammy2 View Post

Anyone can submit for review to CableLabs software that runs on Windows that locks down the content to the machine and an extender. It doesn't have to be Microsoft.

Where do you get that "and an extender" part from? Where in the CableLabs certification process are Windows Media Center extenders covered?

And if it was remotely that easy, why is it that no one else has ever done it, and that there isn't a single dedicated extender still being made? (The xbox exists because it's a game machine. Being an extender is just a sidelight.)
post #32 of 50
Zon2020, please do not spread misinformation. Replies below:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zon2020 View Post

Ah yes. The much ballyhooed Ceton Echo. It's just over the horizon and will cure all ills. I'll believe it when I see it.
And how is that going to work with MS no longer certifying new devices, and with WMC dying off?
Not going to do much good to have an "extender" that is incapable of playing protected content when everything will soon be protected.
I wouldn't count on the media moguls authorizing any new pc devices or software for viewing their content.
And BTW, how much market is there really for extenders? Big companies like Linksys abandoned this market long ago because there simply wasn't any demand. We've just been lucky that the XBox has survived because it's a wildly popular gaming system. If it was just an extender, it would have been discontinued long long ago.

The certification MS discontinued is WHCL certification (Windows Logo) in a few categories. This has no bearing on Ceton's ability to produce an extender (or tuners, for that matter). This is a non-issue.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zon2020 View Post

What the no certifications means is that there will be no new approved devices for use with WMC. Meaning no new extenders. When Ceton decides it's losing money on Echos and stops making them (assuming it ever actually starts making them) those wanting extenders will be fighting on ebay for a finite pool of increasing aged devices.
And all it requires to watch something live on my PC is to pop up an app on my phone, hit record on the program I want to watch, and immediately start watching it on my pc. You're right, I can only watch "recordings" on a pc, but that includes what was recorded 5 seconds ago.

This information is incorrect, as explained above.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zon2020 View Post

Not so sure about that. As I understand it, WMC is the only approved software for playing protected content on a pc with a cablecard, and for an extender or any other hardware to work with WMC, it has to be certified by Microsoft who has said they're not certifying anything any more.

This is also incorrect. In addition to WMDRM, Real Helix, and DTCP are approved standards. There is nothing stopping additional DRM standards from being supported. Furthermore, your conclusion is incorrect. MS has *NOT* announced they will stop certifying/supporting WMDRM devices/software - the announcement was WHCL-related.
Additionally, there is no such thing as "approved software". Any software supporting one of the supported DRM standards can support protected content. WMC is just the only software that implemented this.
post #33 of 50
"WMC is just the only software that implemented this."

Why?

And when is this magical extender actually going to appear?

Oh, and if you use Real Helix, does that mean that everyone using WMC today will have to switch to RealPlayer as the front end on their pc? How well does that work for organizing and displaying content? Does Real Helix even have a consumer media product?

And please identify for us those consumer media front ends for pcs that use DTCP?

Now, I understand you want to pump up the market about your product, but I wonder who it is that's actually spreading "misinformation." Or are you trying to tell us that you intend to create an entire new software infrastructure for pcs to replace WMC go along with your extenders?

EDIT- oh, by the way, your April 2012 press release said quite specifically "Digital Rights Management: Windows Media Player 11, WMDRM-11" Funny but I don't see a single word about DTCP or Real Helix.
Edited by Zon2020 - 6/28/12 at 3:38pm
post #34 of 50
Thanks for the clarification Eric!

Now how long for the Echo? I know, I know. If you deliver by Dec 31 it still is 2012!

And will it work with any tuner or just the InfiniTV 4?
post #35 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zon2020 View Post

Ok, so who needs to certify a WMC extender? Because as it now stands, that's the only way to view protected content on other than the original pc, correct? That's Microsoft, not Cablelabs, right? What does CableLabs have to do with extenders?
\We're not talking about the tuner, we're talking about the ability to play content anywhere other than the original pc. So certification of the tuner has nothing to do with that. It's certification of the extender and the software that matters, right?
Extender is licensed from Microsoft. Basically you have to get permiision from Microsoft to build one. And there is no indication that Microsoft has stopped license WMC extenders. You are confuse the WMC tuner certification with extender licensing.

Most extenders died because they are too expensive and too slow compared to Xbox 360.
Quote:
And I understand WMC is already certified. But Microsoft's support for that is obviously coming to an end. So then what? If Microsoft drops support for WMC and doesn't certify any new WMC extenders, than how are you going to watch recordings anywhere other than on the pc on which the recording was originally made?

Did you miss my earluer post that Win7 is supported to 2020 and Win8 WMC is supported a few years past that? Whatever works today won't magically stop working until the product end of life.
post #36 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxbat121 View Post

Extender is licensed from Microsoft. Basically you have to get permiision from Microsoft to build one.

Exactly my point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxbat121 View Post

And there is no indication that Microsoft has stopped license WMC extenders. You are confuse the WMC tuner certification with extender licensing.

Can you point out where Microsoft said they are going to continue to validate and license extenders? There's no indication that they will either.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxbat121 View Post

Most extenders died because they are too expensive and too slow compared to Xbox 360.

Or that there simply was no market for them. And with the increased capabilities of STBs, that market is probably even less today. That they're popular on this forum does not equate to sufficient demand to support production and marketing. If you were a banker, would you underwrite this project?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxbat121 View Post

Did you miss my earluer post that Win7 is supported to 2020 and Win8 WMC is supported a few years past that? Whatever works today won't magically stop working until the product end of life.

Yeah, but that's quite a leap of faith to go from Microsoft's end-of-life projections for its operating systems to a conclusion that they will allso continue to support WMC to that OS end-of-life.

Look, I don't really care one way or the other, but this whole thing that there is going to be this great savior of a new extender from a $5M/yr company that is going to get fully supported and save WMC for PC extenders for the next ten years sounds to me like a fairy tale. I started out here just making a point that the dramatically increased capabilities of cable and Satellite STBs in the past year has altered the landscape and made them in many respects more flexible and more capable than htpcs, especially as those cable and satellite companies increasingly clamp down on protection. Then the Ceton cultists all jumped down my throat.

Well, I'm in a "show me" mode. Maybe I'm just too cynical. Or maybe I'm just being realistic.
post #37 of 50
I'm not going to worry about it until I have to or shortly beforehand.

Until then I'm going to enjoy Charter on my HDHomerun Prime.

The point of this thread is that FiOS is now going to copy protect some content. Not really a big deal in the grand scheme of things.
post #38 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zon2020 View Post

Can you point out where Microsoft said they are going to continue to validate and license extenders? There's no indication that they will either.

...
Well, I'm in a "show me" mode. Maybe I'm just too cynical. Or maybe I'm just being realistic.

On that note, the world is going to end this year according to Mayans, unless you can show me otherwise.....

Like others posted already, most you posted in this thread has been misinfornation. There is really no point to continue this pointless debate.

Back on topic, most of us who are not on FIOS already have most of our cable channels on copy-once from day one. It is hardly a news.
post #39 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxbat121 View Post

On that note, the world is going to end this year according to Mayans, unless you can show me otherwise.....
.

A new calendar was found:

http://www.livescience.com/20218-apocalypse-oldest-mayan-calendar.html
post #40 of 50
We've had DirecTV since the mid-90's. I have been keeping track of the DVR's since we got our first Tivo based DVR several years ago. While the whole home concept applies mostly to people that watch content on DirecTV, I would really like to know how many people have the whole homes connected to the internet? Its likely as many MS contends use Windows Media Center, in the single digits.

Don't believe you can get ESPN3 on your DirecTV DVR's, but Speed2 is available its channel 9xxxx or something. I am just waiting for somebody to write a Speed 2 app for XBMC, Holy Grail reached...

A new HD-DVR (HR25) is $200 without a 2 year re-up. But to get ESPN3 and You Tube would require at min another STB, likely Blu Ray player, the new Samsung Blu Ray with Android is nice - http://www.amazon.com/Samsung-BD-ES6000-Blu-ray-Player-Black/dp/B0078P6O8W

But you can forget playing back any of your files that have the MKV container, nothing supports it but maybe the Android powered Patriot Alpine - http://www.patriotmemory.com/products/detailp.jsp?prodline=6&catid=69&prodgroupid=159&id=1172&type=20

As it is I am trying to cut down on the bricks behind my TV...

For people that like to watch network television period, provider DVR's are fine for them, but for the members of this forum, its not enough even in its current guise.
post #41 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by dj4monie View Post

We've had DirecTV since the mid-90's. I have been keeping track of the DVR's since we got our first Tivo based DVR several years ago. While the whole home concept applies mostly to people that watch content on DirecTV, I would really like to know how many people have the whole homes connected to the internet? Its likely as many MS contends use Windows Media Center, in the single digits.

Why do you assume that? The internet connnectivity has been around a lot longer than the whole home and from reading the DirecTV forums and DBSTalk over the years, I think there's a whole lot more people with their Directv boxes connected to the internet than there are people with the whole home setup. Most people are just in the process of getting the whole home.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dj4monie View Post

Don't believe you can get ESPN3 on your DirecTV DVR's, but Speed2 is available its channel 9xxxx or something. I am just waiting for somebody to write a Speed 2 app for XBMC, Holy Grail reached...

That's right, which is a big reason why I have an HPTC - to get streaming content like ESPN3.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dj4monie View Post

A new HD-DVR (HR25) is $200 without a 2 year re-up. But to get ESPN3 and You Tube would require at min another STB, likely Blu Ray player, the new Samsung Blu Ray with Android is nice - http://www.amazon.com/Samsung-BD-ES6000-Blu-ray-Player-Black/dp/B0078P6O8W

Actually, I just got a new HR24 and HR34 installed for free. And the HR20, HR21 and HR24 all have Youtube included and Youtube can be searched right along with the DirecTV content.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dj4monie View Post

But you can forget playing back any of your files that have the MKV container, nothing supports it but maybe the Android powered Patriot Alpine - http://www.patriotmemory.com/products/detailp.jsp?prodline=6&catid=69&prodgroupid=159&id=1172&type=20
As it is I am trying to cut down on the bricks behind my TV...
For people that like to watch network television period, provider DVR's are fine for them, but for the members of this forum, its not enough even in its current guise.

True, and as I said, I'm not giving up my HTPC. But my comment was about the general marketplace and the reality that the mass appeal of htpcs is probably going down as many of the things they used to be required for can now be done by STBs. I notice you haven't given up your Directv either. By the way, we watch almost no network TV. If network TV was all we watched, I'd ditch DirecTV tomorrow and put up and antenna.
Edited by Zon2020 - 6/28/12 at 5:47pm
post #42 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxbat121 View Post

On that note, the world is going to end this year according to Mayans, unless you can show me otherwise.....
Like others posted already, most you posted in this thread has been misinfornation. There is really no point to continue this pointless debate.
Back on topic, most of us who are not on FIOS already have most of our cable channels on copy-once from day one. It is hardly a news.

Actually, please point out what I posted that has actually shown to be "misinformation."

You mean like agreeing with you that "Extender is licensed from Microsoft. Basically you have to get permiision from Microsoft to build one." Or like declining to equate support for Windows 7 with support for WMC? Or pointing out that Real Healix and DTCP have nothing whatsoever to do with consumer media playback software for pcs or extenders for the Echo?

Microsoft just made a big deal last week of the direction they're headed and their concept of the XBox - not the pc - as the center of their future media experience. What would be their motivation to validate and licence extenders for a tecnology in WMC that they are abandoning?

It's remarkable what a sacred cow the overhyped vaporware Echo has become here. I guess desperation will do that to people.

Oh, and I'm still wating to hear anything other than crickets in response to my questions to Erickotz above. He went to great lengths to claim I was all wrong. So okay Eric, then answer the questions. And don't go off on some tanget again that you know perfectly well has nothing to do with your promised product.

Oh and if you really want to demonstrate I'm wrong, give a release date for the Echo. That's the one and only thing that can actually back up the hype.
Edited by Zon2020 - 6/28/12 at 5:52pm
post #43 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zon2020 View Post

"WMC is just the only software that implemented this."
Why?
And when is this magical extender actually going to appear?
Oh, and if you use Real Helix, does that mean that everyone using WMC today will have to switch to RealPlayer as the front end on their pc? How well does that work for organizing and displaying content? Does Real Helix even have a consumer media product?
And please identify for us those consumer media front ends for pcs that use DTCP?
Now, I understand you want to pump up the market about your product, but I wonder who it is that's actually spreading "misinformation." Or are you trying to tell us that you intend to create an entire new software infrastructure for pcs to replace WMC go along with your extenders?
EDIT- oh, by the way, your April 2012 press release said quite specifically "Digital Rights Management: Windows Media Player 11, WMDRM-11" Funny but I don't see a single word about DTCP or Real Helix.

Why is a business question. There is no technical roadblock preventing it from being implemented. Real Helix has nothing to do with RealPlayer other than being made by the same company. My point is still valid that the only reason this is tied to MS is that no one else wrote software - not because of business restrictions.
Please read the relevant specifications (OCUR, DRI and CCCP) as they explain the requirements for producing this software if you doubt my responses, as they will give you great insight to this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammy2 View Post

Thanks for the clarification Eric!
Now how long for the Echo? I know, I know. If you deliver by Dec 31 it still is 2012!
And will it work with any tuner or just the InfiniTV 4?

No more clues on the date, other than 2012 biggrin.gif
At this point, there are no plans to restrict which tuners Echo works with, so I would expect it to work with any tuner.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zon2020 View Post

Actually, please point out what I posted that has actually shown to be "misinformation."
I have already outlined this above. Please read the CableLabs specs I have mentioned for clarification.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zon2020 View Post

You mean like agreeing with you that "Extender is licensed from Microsoft. Basically you have to get permiision from Microsoft to build one." Or like declining to equate support for Windows 7 with support for WMC? Or pointing out that Real Healix and DTCP have nothing whatsoever to do with consumer media playback software for pcs or extenders for the Echo?
Microsoft just made a big deal last week of the direction they're headed and their concept of the XBox - not the pc - as the center of their future media experience. What would be their motivation to validate and licence extenders for a tecnology in WMC that they are abandoning?
It's remarkable what a sacred cow the overhyped vaporware Echo has become here. I guess desperation will do that to people.
Oh, and I'm still wating to hear anything other than crickets in response to my questions to Erickotz above. He went to great lengths to claim I was all wrong. So okay Eric, then answer the questions. And don't go off on some tanget again that you know perfectly well has nothing to do with your promised product.
Oh and if you really want to demonstrate I'm wrong, give a release date for the Echo. That's the one and only thing that can actually back up the hype.
My apologies for taking a few hours to respond. While I do frequent the board, I am not here every minute of the day and have other job responsibilities. You are correct that Helix and DTCP are not extender protocols, but they are related to protected content on the OCUR, which is where this discussion started, and what they were in reference to. I am unclear how you think supporting Windows 7 does not equal supporting WMC - WMC is part of Windows 7 and falls under its support policies.

Ceton has spent significant amounts of time and money developing the extender, and I can assure you it will be released.

You imply that I did not answer your questions. Aside from the exact extender release date, which specific question have you asked me that you feel I have not answered. I will be happy to answer legitimate technical questions on the products or policies, provided they are asked in a non-hostile manner.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zon2020 View Post

"WMC is just the only software that implemented this."
Why?
And when is this magical extender actually going to appear?
Oh, and if you use Real Helix, does that mean that everyone using WMC today will have to switch to RealPlayer as the front end on their pc? How well does that work for organizing and displaying content? Does Real Helix even have a consumer media product?
And please identify for us those consumer media front ends for pcs that use DTCP?
Now, I understand you want to pump up the market about your product, but I wonder who it is that's actually spreading "misinformation." Or are you trying to tell us that you intend to create an entire new software infrastructure for pcs to replace WMC go along with your extenders?
EDIT- oh, by the way, your April 2012 press release said quite specifically "Digital Rights Management: Windows Media Player 11, WMDRM-11" Funny but I don't see a single word about DTCP or Real Helix.

As I mentioned above Real Helix has no dependency on RealPlayer. I know the PS3 does support DTCP. I know others have announced.
post #44 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zon2020 View Post

I started out here just making a point that the dramatically increased capabilities of cable and Satellite STBs in the past year has altered the landscape and made them in many respects more flexible and more capable than htpcs, especially as those cable and satellite companies increasingly clamp down on protection.

Your view is skewed by the DirectTV service you have. Comcast certainly isn't providing all these wonderful capabilities.You think Charter is? Or wonderful Metrocast? Or my favorite "Videotron?" We had the Comcast Tivo DVR for a while. It was crazy expensive and they probably replaced the units 5-6 times they were so buggy. I am certainly not going back to paying over $200/mo to get what I have now with the infrastructure I've already built. I'll suffer from having to record it in two places. At worst I've got a 8.5TB DVR and that's still better than anything Comcast offers.
Edited by StardogChampion - 6/28/12 at 8:20pm
post #45 of 50
Thread Starter 
Well this thread certainly went off on a tangent. biggrin.gif

Had a letter from Verizon waiting for me when I got home with instructions to check channel 131, fortunately it looks like my CableCard is OK and won't need to be re-registered. As for the copy protection (at least in my area) I suspect Sammy is right and they're just going to lock down HBO and the other premium channels, that's the way it was with Comcast here. If they do more, then I'll look to possibly go back to Comcast and get my CableCard from them instead.
post #46 of 50
I received a letter from Verizon as well. I used the Ceton tool to pull up my info and it said I was allready registered. I went ahead and called the toll free number anyway and the automated prompts told me it was already registered as well, so I am good.
post #47 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zon2020 View Post

Plus, with things like HBOGo, and DirecTV anywhere, they provide the ability to watch programming anywhere you have an internet connection, on nearly any kind of device, and they get the ability to sell you on demand programming as well.

As one who travels internationally for work, I have added HBOGo, etc. to the same list as Google Music. They won't stream outside of the USA. I'll get a lot less bang for my FiOS buck and plan to let the Arl County Cable Commissioner know this is a disservice to consumers.

My Ceton cablecard worked great and I could simply record and catch up on shows on the plane or in my hotel using my laptop. Just plug the laptop into the hotel TV's HDMI and it was just like home with a more comfy bed--with room service! VZ has thrown in a major monkeywrench... :-/
post #48 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by mnestheus View Post

As one who travels internationally for work, I have added HBOGo, etc. to the same list as Google Music. They won't stream outside of the USA. I'll get a lot less bang for my FiOS buck and plan to let the Arl County Cable Commissioner know this is a disservice to consumers.

This is what VPN services are for.
post #49 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by robnix View Post

This is what VPN services are for.

The operative word was "simply." That adds hassle, but it's something I've thought about figuring out when I have the time.
post #50 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by robnix View Post

This is what VPN services are for.

No, technically it is not. It ain't illegal but it is most definitely a circumvention of the intent of the copyright owners - and that is the fundamental problem with these sorts of changes. We should not have to resort to loopholes and trickery to get what we paid for.
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