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LED or Plasma right now? - Page 6

post #151 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by Djyinn View Post

The reason why this post is full of Panasonic (panny) responses is because they are outstanding Plasma sets. I will be buying a 65"vt50 at the end of September and have zero reservations about it. I also have a 70" Sharp Elite literally right next to it in the demo space from it and for the money, the Panasonic VT50 is hands down, far and away the outperformer. You don't have to take my word for it, take the numerous "TV of the year" awards that that panel has received this year.
Regardless of what you may think of these guys as reviewers, they give a fairly spot on review of the VT50
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnDbLVPsUDw&feature=relmfu

A bit confusing. You haven't got the 65VT50 yet (end of Sept.) and can already compare it to the Sharp Elite? Confusing dialog.
post #152 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by dzt41j View Post

I agree the VT50 is the class of the field, but I do think the Samsungs should be looked at for those considering the GT's or ST's, especially if you are worried about ir.

. . .. or dithering, video noise in the picture, heat, etc.

The GT and ST are also not known for very good Standard Definition display of DVD and SD cable or OTA material either.
post #153 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phase700B View Post

A bit confusing. You haven't the 65VT50 yet can already compare it to the Sharp Elite? Confusing dialog.

Where I work I have a multitude of panels on display that I have the ability to contrast and compare to each other. If you would have continued my quote, it says "in the demo space" and you are probly correct. I should have expanded on where said demo space was.
Having sent identical images to both tv's at the same time (utilizing dual HDMI outputs from the BDP500 Panasonic Blu ray player) the VT50 is just outstanding at half the price. Not to say the Elite is a slouch by any means, but $7.5k versus $3.5k, I don't see the benefit in the extra 4k, and I get to look at these panels everyday at work.
post #154 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by dzt41j View Post

I agree the VT50 is the class of the field, but I do think the Samsungs should be looked at for those considering the GT's or ST's, especially if you are worried about ir.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phase700B View Post

. . .. or dithering, video noise in the picture, heat, etc.
The GT and ST are also not known for very good Standard Definition display of DVD and SD cable or OTA material either.

i also have the Sammy 8000 series plasmas and LED's right down the line from them. They also have impressive pictures, and the same size sammy plasma IS 500 bucks cheaper than the VT50 at the moment. But the ink blacks are just not there, not too mention they have (what I have come to notice across all Samsung panels) a noticeable reddish hue to skin tones and it doesn't seem to be able to keep up with dynamic shadowing like the Panasonic can. It always seems like there is less shadowing in the image to create depth. And, if 3d is a big deal to you or an interest, you can not beat the VT50. Period. The BEST consumer level 3d on the market.
post #155 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

Regarding LED/LCD TVs and viewing angles, blacks levels, etc, the IPS panel sets do have great horizontal viewing angles but the vertical viewing angles are pretty crappy and the blacks levels and native contrast ratios are REALLY POOR (like 900:1 on my LG and 0.04 fL black level). In fact, my S-IPS LG LCD will be moved to a secondary room once a repair on it is completed and I am currently trying to find a Samsung UN40EH5300 with the S-PVA panel to replace it as my primary display.

Seriously dewd? Months ago you were just amazed at how good your LG looked with its S-IPS panel once you learned how to calibrate it properly. Mine looked good right out of the box and once calibrated (a couple of months later) it still looks great! NO issues at all. Sure blacks could be better but for what I paid in 2010, and the use it has seen since, definitely money well spent. No issues with off-axis viewing either (at least at the angles we sit). If you're not happy with your tv that's fine. But your "obligation" to warn others about IPS panels borders on ludicrous and laughable at best. Six months after you buy your next set you'll be back in that group complaining.
post #156 of 292
It's really fruitless arguing which is better. LED and Plasma both have a pretty massive list of serious drawbacks. The best saying I've often heard on these boards when it comes to comparing display technology is "pick your poison". Some people will be willing to forgo some features or put up with certain limitations in exchange for not having a particular negative, while others will be on the reverse of that. Everything in this regard is subjective.

About the only thing that truly stands as an objective variable when choosing between the two is "value for money" and this is where plasma has a clear edge. Look at all the high end sets, the shootouts, it's always the $2k-3k plasmas vs the $6k-7k LEDs. Some people will sacrifice by accepting some IR, or buzzing or higher power consumption to get a TV that matches LEDs twice the price. Others won't. Pick your poison. tongue.gif
post #157 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto Pylot View Post

Seriously dewd? Months ago you were just amazed at how good your LG looked with its S-IPS panel once you learned how to calibrate it properly. Mine looked good right out of the box and once calibrated (a couple of months later) it still looks great! NO issues at all. Sure blacks could be better but for what I paid in 2010, and the use it has seen since, definitely money well spent. No issues with off-axis viewing either (at least at the angles we sit). If you're not happy with your tv that's fine. But your "obligation" to warn others about IPS panels borders on ludicrous and laughable at best. Six months after you buy your next set you'll be back in that group complaining.

uh oh!

lol yeah I thought that was the guy who not too long took issue with my mentioning some comparative disadvantage with IPS, despite stating I still prefer ips. Oh well we're all figuring it out & will get through this TOGETHER. As a FAMILY.
post #158 of 292
It seems like the 2012 Panasonic's are having more complaints about IR than they did in 2011. Panasonic is using a brand new panel for 2012 and they are inherently brighter. I'm no engineer but the correlation seems obvious. The 2012 Panasonic's have the best measured blacks they've ever had and their shadow detail is considered outstanding. They also have a small incidence of buzzing. In head to head comparisons the 2012 Samsung's have shown to have a slightly sharper image, a bit weaker black levels and shadow detail and a higher incidence of buzzers. The Samsung also shows less of a tendency for IR. The biggest Samsung is 64" while the biggest Panasonic is 65" (not counting the 80"+ and above Panasonic's). They are priced very close to each other. Sharp is the only game in town for LED/LCD's larger than 65". I like Sharp's but I don't love them and I really really want to. Just can 't. It is hard to ignore the availability of a 80" Full Array Sharp for under $4K though. Not sure how long you'll be able to buy one. I think the TV industry is in the early throws of a huge face change.
post #159 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by ATC7 View Post

It's really fruitless arguing which is better. LED and Plasma both have a pretty massive list of serious drawbacks. The best saying I've often heard on these boards when it comes to comparing display technology is "pick your poison". Some people will be willing to forgo some features or put up with certain limitations in exchange for not having a particular negative, while others will be on the reverse of that. Everything in this regard is subjective.
About the only thing that truly stands as an objective variable when choosing between the two is "value for money" and this is where plasma has a clear edge. Look at all the high end sets, the shootouts, it's always the $2k-3k plasmas vs the $6k-7k LEDs. Some people will sacrifice by accepting some IR, or buzzing or higher power consumption to get a TV that matches LEDs twice the price. Others won't. Pick your poison. tongue.gif


I agree that comparison is pretty subjective and each tech has it's foibles as I said several times in this thread. It all depends what a TV buyer prefers to some extent in particular picture characteristics, SD/HD/3D viewing, room conditions, and his/her wallet. And the point about "shootouts" is one more that I find of little use. Comparing high end TVs in the $2,000 or $3,000 range and higher is still not representative of what people can buy in the $1K range. Looking at the state of the economy, it;s probably only the few that have disposable income and a current good paying job that even are concerned with such issues. My point is, a person can nit pick to death black levels, banding, plasma pixel noise, off angle viewing, plasma dithering, etc. But because of the economy and conservation, also want low energy/carbon footprint impact.

What is somewhat curious to me is the same people that are critical about all the details of getting the best picture quality will put up with mediocre streaming from a service or downloaded source on a USB stick, compression from a cable/satellite provider, and also watch video sources on some pocket sized screen where picture quality is a joke. wink.gif Some of this probably falls into the "who has the most tech" or gadget-guy category , so oh well.rolleyes.gif

Hey, it;s TV and it's all good. None of us can debate or judge what another chooses. It's a choice.
Edited by Phase700B - 9/12/12 at 4:59am
post #160 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto Pylot View Post

Seriously dewd? Months ago you were just amazed at how good your LG looked with its S-IPS panel once you learned how to calibrate it properly. Mine looked good right out of the box and once calibrated (a couple of months later) it still looks great! NO issues at all. Sure blacks could be better but for what I paid in 2010, and the use it has seen since, definitely money well spent. No issues with off-axis viewing either (at least at the angles we sit). If you're not happy with your tv that's fine. But your "obligation" to warn others about IPS panels borders on ludicrous and laughable at best. Six months after you buy your next set you'll be back in that group complaining.

I gave the TV a honest try and calibrated the hell out of it trying to minimize the poor blacks and resulting low contrast ratio, but it obviously made little difference (I could fix the shadow detail issue with BT.1886 gamma but at the expensive of washing out blacks and color far more with less than perfect source material). I've read many articles online about IPS panels being the best for PC MONITORS and COLOR CRITICAL WORK, but nothing about watching movies, aka HOME THEATER.

Also, I had a Samsung LN32D550 before the LG which did have a S-PVA panel and a really high contrast ratio and plenty of shadow detail (perhaps too much due to gamma which was a bit too low near black) and while I had my complaints about that set (quite a few to be honest), I truly enjoyed the deep blacks, ample shadow detail, and overall high contrast on it and I feel the Samsung 40" EH5300 should be a solid choice based on what I seen at various stores and read on CR.org and here at AVS. I should mention that I prefer deep blacks/solid shadow detail and high native contrast ratios because it brings life to dark images and to colors in general and since I tend to watch movies with lots of dark scenes in a dark room (with a very dim bias light if I feel like it), I'll gladly take the shortcomings of S-PVA tech over S-IPS tech anyday. In fact, I might even do a side by side comparison of this new Samsung vs. my LG while watching something like the Dark Knight to compare the overall picture.

It's also worth mentioning that S-PVA panels have the best viewing angles of any *VA panel tech, second only to IPS in the horizontal axis (and superior to IPS in the vertical axis).


Example from http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/articles/panel_technologies.htm:


Edited by PlasmaPZ80U - 9/12/12 at 7:35am
post #161 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leon! View Post

uh oh!
lol yeah I thought that was the guy who not too long took issue with my mentioning some comparative disadvantage with IPS, despite stating I still prefer ips. Oh well we're all figuring it out & will get through this TOGETHER. As a FAMILY.


Ideally, that is a nice thought. Unfortunately, there are some who get very dogmatic about these things and can't seem to allow others their own choice and seem to have to foist opinion on others or just like to argue and debate for it's own sake. rolleyes.gif

As I indicated earlier in this thread, I own LCD TVs with both S-IPS and S-PVA panels. The S-IPS is better for color accuracy and the S-PVA is a bit better for off angle viewing and better at black level, but at the expense of crushing blacks and require trade offs for optimal settings. I enjoy both TVs. The S-IPS is probably better for daytime viewing in my opinion, or in rooms with higher ambient light levels.

Any further debate over specific panel tech should be in another thread.
Edited by Phase700B - 9/12/12 at 8:26am
post #162 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto Pylot View Post

Seriously dewd? Months ago you were just amazed at how good your LG looked with its S-IPS panel once you learned how to calibrate it properly. Mine looked good right out of the box and once calibrated (a couple of months later) it still looks great! NO issues at all. Sure blacks could be better but for what I paid in 2010, and the use it has seen since, definitely money well spent. No issues with off-axis viewing either (at least at the angles we sit). If you're not happy with your tv that's fine. But your "obligation" to warn others about IPS panels borders on ludicrous and laughable at best. Six months after you buy your next set you'll be back in that group complaining.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leon! View Post

uh oh!
lol yeah I thought that was the guy who not too long took issue with my mentioning some comparative disadvantage with IPS, despite stating I still prefer ips. Oh well we're all figuring it out & will get through this TOGETHER. As a FAMILY.

I should clarify a few things:

1) I placed my posts about S-IPS vs. S-PVA here because the Panasonic Plasmas (and to a lesser extent the Samsung Plasmas) are to S-PVA (LG Plasmas are basically equal to this year's Samsung S-PVA LED/LCDs) as S-PVA LED/LCD is to S-IPS LED/LCD as far as black levels and native contrast ratios are concerned.

Black levels of 2012 flat panel TVs/tech (best to worse, approx)

1. Panasonic Plasmas
2. Samsung Plasmas
3. Samsung S-PVA tech and LG Plasmas (about the same)
4. CMI S-MVA tech (essentially same as #3 but with narrow viewing angles)
5. AUO A-MVA tech
6. LG and Panasonic IPS tech

2) I tried to convince myself my LG LCD was great despite the poor blacks after reading many articles on the subject but the truth remains I strongly prefer Samsungs over LGs and I bet many do for the same reasons as well. If you truly like IPS, great for you but do realize the black level issues are pretty bad for those used to higher contrast displays. I suppose the same could be said for ghosting and motion blur on the *VA panels, but that doesn't bother me nearly as much and I have had both a A-MVA panel (LN32B650) and S-PVA panel (LN32D550) Samsung LCD before, the former which I still own.

3) If I was looking for a 50" or 51" + display, and had a budget of $1000 to $1500 or higher, I'd get a Panasonic Plasma like the 50" ST50 in a heartbeat. However, I have neither the space nor the budget ATM for that, so a Samsung S-PVA (non edge-lit) LED-LCD is the next best thing for me.
Edited by PlasmaPZ80U - 9/12/12 at 9:09am
post #163 of 292
all you guys need to do is hire a preofessional isf calibrator and your set will look fantastic, i just hire kevin miller to do my LG 55LM7600 and it is fabulous!
post #164 of 292
Most of us do have calibrated sets. Some by certified professionals and some DIYers. Calibration does make a difference and coupled with other methods such as bias lighting even a mediocre set can be made to look better.
post #165 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phase700B View Post

LEDs won't last forever, but it is true that plasma phosphors diminish in light output and consistency faster than an LED would. Take a look at air ports and other public venues and there are LCD TVs that are on 24/7 and going strong. You won't see a plasma doing that. It would depend on how many hours you use the TV each day.
Yes, now someone will start stating advertised half output rating made by TV makers of 50,000 to 80,000 hours. A plasma will be pretty diminished in light output and probably have color imbalance after much less than that.
Do you have links to any studies that back that up? There are avs members who have early plasma's ( with much lower panel life) that are still going strong after over a decade. I've seen plasma's installed in a local Wal-Mart ~6 years ago still going strong after running ads 24/7.
post #166 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto Pylot View Post

Most of us do have calibrated sets. Some by certified professionals and some DIYers. Calibration does make a difference and coupled with other methods such as bias lighting even a mediocre set can be made to look better.

thats good, end of this thread. whether u have a plasma or lcd each set is different so nothing to compare! just buy either of one and get calibrate by any isf professional and youll be happy with ur set. thats all.
post #167 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by caloyzki View Post

thats good, end of this thread. whether u have a plasma or lcd each set is different so nothing to compare! just buy either of one and get calibrate by any isf professional and youll be happy with ur set. thats all.

I haven't seen or heard of a professional calibrator that can eliminate or even reduce off axis picture fade in a LCD TV. As a matter of fact, after the calibration they usually still mention the poor off axis viewing in their conclusion.
post #168 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by andy sullivan View Post

I haven't seen or heard of a professional calibrator that can eliminate or even reduce off axis picture fade in a LCD TV. As a matter of fact, after the calibration they usually still mention the poor off axis viewing in their conclusion.

how did u know that? have u ever tried to hire a pro isf calibrator to do to ur set? or u just only heard to other people saying about that? well try it with youre set first and make a comment, what they say is "to see is to beleive" isnt it?
post #169 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by caloyzki View Post

how did u know that? have u ever tried to hire a pro isf calibrator to do to ur set? or u just only heard to other people saying about that? well try it with youre set first and make a comment, what they say is "to see is to beleive" isnt it?

it's pretty straightforward that things like viewing angles are not really affected by calibration... ask in the disp cal forum if you don't believe me
post #170 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by andy sullivan View Post

I haven't seen or heard of a professional calibrator that can eliminate or even reduce off axis picture fade in a LCD TV. As a matter of fact, after the calibration they usually still mention the poor off axis viewing in their conclusion.

+1, exactly
post #171 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by caloyzki View Post

how did u know that? have u ever tried to hire a pro isf calibrator to do to ur set? or u just only heard to other people saying about that? well try it with youre set first and make a comment, what they say is "to see is to beleive" isnt it?

There's no reason to be rude. Andy's comment is valid. Calibration has nothing to do with off-axis viewing.
post #172 of 292
FWIW, I hooked up my new Darbee to my Sony60A3000 and the PQ improvement was Pretty impressive. I've also read good comments from Kuro, Panny ST50 series and Sharp Elite owners. Maybe I won't be shopping this Fall after all.
post #173 of 292
Holy Crap!!! That was post number 2,000. Now can die happy, or stupid.
post #174 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

it's pretty straightforward that things like viewing angles are not really affected by calibration... ask in the disp cal forum if you don't believe me

Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

+1, exactly

Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto Pylot View Post

There's no reason to be rude. Andy's comment is valid. Calibration has nothing to do with off-axis viewing.

ok i understand that. but why most of the people here are complaining about the off-axis viewing or angle viewing. im wondering how do you guys watch on ur tv? do you guys watch on your tv's in sideways? i dont think so. nobody on this world watch their tv on sideways or something like that whatever you call it. just sit up straight and relax in front of your tv and youl enjoy the view. that is how we watch tv. peace.
post #175 of 292
Hi plazmapz80u I appreciate your posts but the motion blur on the samd630 I had looked lowsy when watching hockey even though it was a very good tv.and the hidef wasn't as good as lk520.

It comes down to which tv looks best with dark filmed movies or hockeyor baseball or basketball or talk shows or cartoons or moving/still screens or bright screens or hidef or standard def or grayscale ,eyestrain,uniformity etc etc etc.It takes a very good tester /reviewer to find the best allaround tv and it comes down to what you watch the most and what your willing to live with.Seems like every tv has its positive and negative.Be thankfull your not watching an old tube tv- when the dryer came on the whole screen shrunk and people looked like green aliens and people's heads were stretched like homer Simpson.
post #176 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phase700B View Post

Come on. . . and plasma has well known issues of image retention, screen burn, pixel/video noise, dithering, and more. Not to mention the 2 to 3 times energy consumption. And all TVs have issues. Including the one you are buying. And I don't know what LED/LCD TVs you looked at , but my Mitsubishi looks great even off angle or up and down. Not even 45 degrees will make a difference. So you may have missed some of the good ones most likely. My LG is not as good, but still offers a good view overall.
Well, we hope your new TV works out for you. You can then start posting in the Panasonic Plasma thread where it would make more sense. But glad you read 200 posts. Must be some kind of record somewhere.tongue.gif

I get the impression some here get off trying to talk down to others. I looked at at least a dozen different makes and models of LED sets and most suffer, some severely from off angle viewing. That's just a fact. Are you a wannabe hall monitor or something that you get to decide who posts where? I'll post in any thead I please and without asking your permission. Deal? One thing I've noticed here is there seems to be several cliques... how precious. I'm nether for or against any type or make of tv. I simply select the one I think makes the most sense for ME, which seems like common sense. As I said before I really wanted a LED this time around and was seconds away from ordering one, the new Samsung 8000 series, but saw some issues reported here, elsewhere and witnessed in person too that soured that choice for me that plus the substational price difference which when you take away such features not ready for prime time like hand gesture and voice command, it simply didn't add up, plus with the newer OLED just reaching market I'll wait to next time... maybe. Oh, I never seen imagine retention or burn-in on my plasame or the half dozen or so other large screen plasma sets I see at neighbors or friends homes. So I really can't comment on that other to confrim I haven't seen it. No hum or noise issues either.
post #177 of 292
I agree with you that the OLED will probably be the holy grail for TV's in the future. From what I understand LG is planning on having a 55" on the shelves by Black Friday but with a MSRP around $7500. Samsung is probably going to have theirs available in early 2013. Panasonic and Sony signed a joint deal to develop OLED displays. From what I understand we'll be looking at about 5 years before the production from whatever different manufactures build them can get production up and fully running. Panasonic said they will produce a 2013 line of plasmas with maybe a 70" version. I just read that Sharp is really hurting bad, laying off workers and cutting bonuses across the board. Hopefully the screens Sharp is producing for the Apple iphone5 will help. We don't need another TV company going down the tubes. We may squabble a bit here but we all have one thing in common. We really love TV's and anything TV related.
post #178 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by caloyzki View Post

ok i understand that. but why most of the people here are complaining about the off-axis viewing or angle viewing. im wondering how do you guys watch on ur tv? do you guys watch on your tv's in sideways? i dont think so. nobody on this world watch their tv on sideways or something like that whatever you call it. just sit up straight and relax in front of your tv and youl enjoy the view. that is how we watch tv. peace.

To be clear, I never complained about off-axis viewing. My LG is fine from the couch dead-center and up to about 6' to either side without any noticeable pq degradation. When it was brand new, I looked at it from every conceivable angle, like most new owners do, and noted where the off-axis became a issue and fortunately it was at an angle that we wouldn't be viewing from. But, as you pointed out, some are obsessed with off-axis so their viewing habits may not be like most of us.
post #179 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by andy sullivan View Post

Holy Crap!!! That was post number 2,000. Now can die happy, or stupid.

Welcome to the club biggrin.gif Don't know about you, but I need to get a life outside of AVS wink.gif
post #180 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by caloyzki View Post

ok i understand that. but why most of the people here are complaining about the off-axis viewing or angle viewing. im wondering how do you guys watch on ur tv? do you guys watch on your tv's in sideways? i dont think so. nobody on this world watch their tv on sideways or something like that whatever you call it. just sit up straight and relax in front of your tv and youl enjoy the view. that is how we watch tv. peace.

Off axis viewing comes into play when you have more than your family unit watching a movie, sports etc. If it wasn't an important component for a high percentage of consumers, you wouldn't have companies making off axis feature/benefit statements.
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