LED or Plasma right now? - Page 8

+1

Even though I to some extent agree with you, it should be said in all fairness that if you turn down stuff like backlight (thats what its called on Sony) you would get much less problems with blooming, at least on my HX929, even though it wouldn't make them go away completely. I know at least the VT50 is brighter in the US than in Europe, but I would guess that even with backlight turned down to lowest setting, the brightness put out by the HX929 would still be comparable to the bright modes on most plasmas. And then you still have the option to really push brightness if you want to watch sports during daytime etc.

I totally agree with you, if I didn't have a projector and had a dedicated home cinema room (aka Batcave) I would probably put a plasma in it. And that's how I think most reviewers surroundings look like when they test TVs. That would explain part of the reason why some of the plasma drawbacks (like brightness) are not presented, I can however don't understand how stuff like IR etc can be missed, or at least not mentioned. But on the other hand, since I am not spending any time and money doing my own reviews, and present them to others, I can't really complain about other peoples reviews, unless I paid for them. It should also be said that there are unbiased reviews out there that also.
Edited by improwise - 9/13/12 at 3:11pm

I got the lg42pa4500 (budget tv) and when I put gamma on brightest setting which probably isn't right but I prefer because it brightens it up(so it is not too white and black - balances it more)When I do it brings out all sorts of purple and green hazes in the Darker parts of screen(might be called banding?).i hardly notice it on medium gamma.There is pink in the whites,not sure if it's related to gamma or white calibration setting.Grayscale seemed a little better on lcds of the 3 tvs I've had.lk520,d630,pa4500 mostly because the White crush/oversaturated on plasma.black crush seems fairly close on all of them even though lk520 didn't go very black.

I just calibrate by eye but have spent a lot of hours doing it.I have not done 20 point grayscale on any of them.

Excellent video here of the Value Electronics 2012 panel shootout.
Now, I haven't figured out all the tv's but what I can tell is
Upper left LG PM9700
Bottom Left Panasonic W sereies LED
Middle Upper Samsung E8000
Middle Lower Samsung ES8000
Upper Right Panasonic VT50 (winner, btw)
Lower Right Sharp Elite LED

Basically top is all plasmas and bottoms are LED's

Review of the panels selected and why not naming any names *ahem SONY* didn't make the cut. Granted, the HX929 is still an outstanding panel, as mentioned in the video, it simply did not make the cut next to these.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nteBANhWj_A

Contrast ratio. Blackest of the Blacks and the Whitest of the Whites. Pay particular attention to which tv's you can still tell are "on". "The reason why the VT50 and the Elite are placed on top of eachother is because they are the two best black levels."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tuoUdiOBvWQ&feature=relmfu

These guys did days of calibration, demonstrations, and deliberations on outstanding pictures and great panels. I haven't found a vid yet of all of it edited together, but this is possibly the most informative.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDX54Tbefbs&feature=relmfu

Great Demo of 24p 96hz demos for film mode. Please keep in mind that this is a video of videos. The "flickering" you are seeing here and there on the panels is mostly the fault of it being in the act of being filmed. The LG is specifically pointed out as having an "undefeatable image interpolation" meaning that even though they have put every effort imaginable into calibrating these to be perfect, the could not overcome this detriment/downside to the LG picture. It can not be turned off.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RcmgtzEd8c

An outstanding showcasing done by, what many consider to be, the father of modern panel televisions as we know it. Dr. Larry Weber
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOFZgCV0dq4&feature=player_embedded

If this will display and link correctly, here is my search query for Youtube so you can watch all of the presentations being done. Like I said, the two that I post were the most astounding and must be watched in their entirety to be fully appreciated.
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=value+electronics+shootout+2012&oq=value+elec&gs_l=youtube.3.0.0.146.2926.0.4551.17.13.4.0.0.0.295.1407.10j2j1.13.0...0.0...1ac.1.DXIN0aMMUf4

Here is a link to the main page
value electronics . com
Edited by Djyinn - 9/13/12 at 11:11pm

I think it's nice that they have reviewed many of the high end TVs, but it probably has little or no relationship to the mid and lower priced TVs of the same brands. So unless a person is buying one of those TVs, I find such high end reviews of little use to the majority of TV buyers. Sort of like an automobile company touting the high end luxury or sports sedan, which has little in common with the bulk of the market.

Also, I feel all the reasoning in the quoted texts apply. Again considering that any review by a commercial establishment may be influenced by sales and marketing bias and perks.

Still, at least it is an opportunity to see how the latest technology in production may perform against each other to some degree, which may trickle down to lower priced models, hopefully, at some point.
Edited by Phase700B - 9/14/12 at 5:19am

Well, you might want to check your facts here, as the HX929 "didn't make the cut" because it was said to be a 2011 modell, despite being Sonys top model at the time of the shootout. Even though I personally think that was a bit strange, I fully respect their right to choose whatever TVs they like for the shootout and also understand that there is no way they can handle EVERY modell out there. I am very grateful for the time, effort and probably money they put into doing this every year. I also believe that in the surroundings the TVs where in, both the VT50 and the Sharp would have beaten the Sony. If I were to buy a TV for a Batcave, it would most likely be a plasma.

And you would get the same result with a HX929, so I am not really sure what your point here is? That said, most LCDs out there don't stand a chance compared to plasmas with regards to black levels, I am the first to agree with that. But as said before, an all black screen is kind of cheating (I assume that you mean an all black screen as it would otherwise be quite obvious which where "on").

I found this shootout to be highly revealing. Not only did the VT50 win, it's obvious the very similar ST50 and GT50 would have come very close to the VT50 as well. The same could be said about the Panasonic LEDs doing badly (with are all IPS BTW). The Samsung ES edge-lit LED cannot directly compare to the cheaper EH direct-lit models in terms of screen uniformity but should correlate well with the lesser ES models. The Samsung Plasma (E8000) is quite similar to the E7000 and E6500, so the same applies regarding my comments about the Panasonic Plasmas.

I do feel the people testing these TVs were experts (those on the expert panel, mostly pro calibrators) and I don't think claiming they are biased or their testing methodology is lacking would be productive or honest. I should point out the results are quite consistent with other expert reviews, including CNET and others.
Edited by PlasmaPZ80U - 9/14/12 at 6:49am

+1 Excellent points. A current model like the HX929 should not have been excluded just because of when it was released for sale. And, yes, a plasma would certainly best about any LED in a dark "Batcave" with light levels so low you might trip on yourself if you had to get up. Plasma TV has it's place and so do LED. I find the black levels on my S-PVA LCD panel adequate for my bias lighted room conditions at night, and still give very excellent contrast, color, and a clear , noise free image during day time hours. Especially on weekends when most of the big sports events are on network TV.

Also, the ability to display Standard Definition (SD) video source material such as DVD, cable, and satellite seems to be minimized or ignored. I noticed reading many of the posts in the GT/ST threads here on AVS that there were complaints of poor SD display. Many TV owners have substantial libraries of movies on DVD that are not available on Blu-ray, and many DVDs and SuperBit DVDs display very high quality images on LED/LCD panels and no noise or dithering.

Another point I would have liked to see tested is how well a 50fl or more image holds up on a the plasma TVs tested without dimming effects. Perhaps the higher end plasma might get up to that point, but wonder how long the power supplies would last supplying that kind of current with such a high APL? Heat, as we know, stresses and ages electronics most quickly. Did any of the tests do a measurement of internal and external temperatures produced? This is where LED/LCD panels exceed and without consuming 2 to 3 times the power of a plasma nor producing a lot of heat.

And to think that reviewers do not have a bias or be influenced by perks of some sort is very naive, besides other influence and even peer pressure from fellow reviewers or other industry sources. I'm sure there is status and "A" list concerns even in the consumer TV testing world. Where there is marketing and sales there is influence and bias. If outside or internal influence had no effect on human beings the lobbyists in Washington D.C. U.S.A. would be out of business.
Edited by Phase700B - 9/14/12 at 9:28am

The LG LV9500 is a perfect example of marketing decisions. I agree, the nano LED technology is the way to go in current LED TVs. The limited market for high end TVs and cost to produce them often result in decisions to cut cost and corners. So even with TV makers who do manage to offer a high end product with something like nano LEDs, it has little benefit with the bulk of the market mid and low priced TVs.

Plasma fanatics are always raving about the black levels, well what about the white levels? When I watch a hockey game I want to see white ice not off white , dull ice.

I've just had a look at the "Opening video" of the 2012 shootout for the first time (I normally just read the conclusions) and found to my surprise that the TVs wasn't, as I thought, anonymized but that it was very obvious which one was which. Especially considering the fact that the Panasonics best TV for the year is usually the love child of the industry, and everyone, including myself, want it to be very good. Isn't this a bit strange? Or is it because it would be to easy to identify each display anyway during the shootout?

My concern here is of course that any TV that everyone wants to be the best, is likely to perhaps receive a few extra points compared to other TVs. Now, don't get me wrong here, I'm not out to claim any conspiracy or anything here or in any way disrespect the shootout, just commenting on the risk that you sometimes see what you want to see. I am quite certain that if I was in the audience, I would be inclined to maybe add a little extra to the score of the VT50 myself, and that is from someone how in the end didn't actually buy a VT50. Or am I just being silly here or perhaps have misunderstood something fundamental?

(This isn't actually a post about the VT50 in itself, more than the fact that I believe it is the current love child in the industry. A few years ago it would have been a Pioneer, and a few years from now it will probably be some other OLED TV. The VT50 is a great TV, we all know that )
Edited by improwise - 9/15/12 at 4:18am

^^^^ I think that's why these professional tv comparisons need to be taken with a grain of salt. They are certainly a great place to start to see what the new sets can do but I certainly wouldn't use them as my deciding factor. Not without "interviewing" one myself and of course coming here to get probably a little more un-biased information from actual users who have them in their homes and not some sterile environment.

The VT50 measured a better ANSI contrast ratio than the Sharp Elite. While the blacks on the local dimming sets may measure lower when there's nothing but black on the screen, that doesn't hold true for regular content.
Edited by ttnuagmada - 9/15/12 at 5:10pm

First let me point out that I am a plasma guy. The colors are richer, the blacks are darker and the image seems to have more depth in natural lighting in most rooms and especially in low light.

However, you really should consider one thing over all others in my opinion when looking for a new display. That is simply how bright is your room and how much do you watch tv through out the day?

I only say this because some like to watch tv all day on the weekends and the plasma may not be as bright as a picture as you would like if there is ALOT of direct sunlight. But it really needs to be a substantial amount to really worry about. But if your house faces east or west and you have a ton of windows that gets direct sunlight for long periods of time you may get annoyed.....I personally have never experienced this, but I have been told by others.

Also, with an LCD display you have to worry about pixels going out individually and would personally annoy the heck out of me.

that said, my 2 year old plasma went out entirely and wont turn on and needs to be repaired and even though I love its picture, I wish it would have lasted longer before needing this major of a repair done to it.


p.s. if anyone is wondering I have a Panasonic G20 and S2

I'm certainly not an expert on how white ice looks on a plasma, just going from what other people say and the 1 time I actually compared this at BB. There were 3 sets together showing a game, 1 was a Samsung plasma, 1 was a cheapo Phillips set and another LED, can't remember the make. Anyways i was amazed at how much brighter the ice looked on the Phillips than the plasma. So thats comparing one of the low level LED sets to one of the top of the line plasma"s, no comparison.

This may be true, and you know what, when you pass light through the rear of an image you adversely effect the coloration, making it lighter. You were probly really impressed with how "bright" the image was, thus making your observation fundamentally flawed. Excessive light levels adversely effect the coloration and overall picture quality. You were probly seeing, and still are seeing, "blued" whites, as per seems to be the case when comparing LED's and plasmas. It's ok, I see it all day long with the customers I serve as well. If you want a bright as hell image, that's on you, but it is incorrect.

Please, stop being a fan boy about your television. Loving your tv and wanting to sing its praises is one thing, but flat out saying someone is wrong when you obviously don't understand the fundamentals of how picture and light coincide isn't productive and can come off as conceited. Your LG may have an outstanding picture, and properly calibrated any tv fundamentally can have an outstanding picture, but comments such as "NO, YOU ARE WRONG" need to not be present in a professional forum like this.

Having enhanced black levels effects the color gradation of your entire set. You may not be as impressed with the "brightness" of the panel at hand, but the whites are also truer on plasmas as well, as they don't suffer from "bluing" as most rear or even edge lit tv's suffer from. I too am a massive hockey fan (GO STARS!) and was born in Maryland and have been playing hockey since I was 5. The whites are a great way to discern good and bad just as much as blacks. Take an objective look at your tv the next time you are in whatever store you frequent and see if you are actually getting a true white and not a "blued" white.

then why does the best local dimming LED produce a poorer ANSI contrast ratio than the vt50 despite having brighter whites?
Edited by ttnuagmada - 9/15/12 at 11:56pm

I offer a challenge and a truce of sorts here, 6athome. So, I will be purchasing the VT50 sometime here towards the end of the month, beginning of October... sometime around there. I will video tape the exact section of either I Am Legend that you are referring to or the other example you have given on here (I believe it was Avatar) as long as YOU promise to video the same thing and post it. Now granted, my panel will not be calibrated so it will be straight out of the box at that point (going to wait the standard month or 150 hours, whichever comes first before I calibrate mine). How does that sound? Nothing crazy, put it on whatever video mode you choose and video tape that as well so we all know what we are comparing (I will do the same) and in fact, run that sequence in several modes just to get a unified overall quality test. Granted, this will completely be subjective due to lighting conditions, cameras used, the whole 9... BUT I think it will be fun anyway.
What do ya think?

Sir, YOU may want to check your facts. That was a direct quote from the video, but I assume that you didn't even bother watching it. To quote the video directly and specifically,

3:43 "But we did eliminate some panels this year. WE TESTED ALL OF THEM, WE TESTED EVERY SINGLE PANEL, and I won't mention any names because I don't want to embarrass Sony... They are a GREAT company, and the HX929 is truly with no joke an exceptional television its absolutely an exceptional television and it produced an excellent picture this year as it did last year. But, the advancement in display technology is the biggest I have ever scene since we had the Kuro in 2008, I've never seen such a jump in picture quality enhancement. And, when we put that up along with a few others that didn't make the cut, it just didn't compete. So we felt that there are models that just don't make the cut, and that's one of a few that didn't make it. So, I have insulted some friends in the industry as well as clients, but, this is about the best panels of 2012. it's not ALL the panels, it's THE BEST. It took a lot for any one panel to get into this event, it had to be a real stellar performer."

Thank you PlasmaPZ80U for this comment

Phase, really?

I would also like to point out that the winner of last years shootout was an LED, specifically the Elite LED.
Here are the results
http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-33199_7-20118503-221/sharp-elite-wins-value-electronics-hdtv-shootout/
These guys specifically hold this event to let the panels speak for themselves, that's why the televise it so heavily on youtube and publicize their results. To imply or think that they fabricate or are influenced by outside perks of any nature is an insult to the entirety of the shootout process as a whole and is highly offensive. Yes, PROFESSIONAL REVIEWERS need to be taken with a grain of salt, that is not what is happening here.

http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-33199_7-57439424-221/panasonic-vt50-wins-value-electronics-2012-tv-picture-quality-shootout/
Edited by Djyinn - 9/16/12 at 12:37am

Well, I guess I would rather say "you have to take them for what they are" as I don't think any of the experts would purposely mislead anyone and in most cases are quite open with the surroundings the TVs are tested in. So, as a reader, you will have to remember this, and the effects it may have, if your settings are different.

Well, in general I agree with you, we spend to much time nitpicking these sets, when the truth is that most of them are great TVs no matter what.

Regarding hockey, I don't think anyone believe the ice is 100% white and that it should look like it on the TV. If I compare my LCD (Sony) to my plasma (Pioneer) it is no doubt that the whites look better on the LCD and hockey in general as well. This is really no surprise to me, as I have long ago accepted that whites on plasma just doesn't look as I want it to, and I don't really have a problem if people disagree with me, even though that won't convince me I am wrong.

Have to agree with Djyinn here, be happy with your TV as it is a really good one, but please tone down the remarks a bit, as anyone is entitled to their opinions.

This is quite interesting, I've looked at the video now and can indeed confirm that what you are saying is true. However, what is also true is that in the main (as far as I know) thread on AVSForum about the HDTV Shootout 2012, it is stated that the Sony was not included because it was said to be a 2011 set, and that the Elite (also a 2011 set) was included only because it won last year.

If I am not remembering wrong here, this was confirmed at least by people attending the shootout, perhaps even by the guys hosting it. If this is indeed the case, I must admit it has me somewhat concerned, especially if you add to this the debacle of the HX929 last year. Please note that I am not claiming anything here, just saying what I am thinking, so don't see it as anything else.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1405172/flat-panel-shootout

I'm not claiming that the HX929 is the perfect sat in anyway, in fact it is far from, but from my own evaluations I would have no hesitation at all claiming it far superior to both the Panasonic LED and the Samsung ES8000, which both were included as far as I know.

Maybe I could summarize it to that the Value Electronic shootout might not be the best place to make an opinion regarding Sonys TVs, but that it is probably a good place for most other TVs
Edited by improwise - 9/16/12 at 5:17am

Not sure if the forum software is broken or anything, because my last post was not displayed as it should, in fact, the whole page 9 seems to be missing, despite me having "LED or Plasma right now? - Page 9" on the top of my page.

(With this post, page 9 suddenly appeared)