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LED or Plasma right now? - Page 3

post #61 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by ATC7 View Post

Believe me, there are many drawbacks to plasmas but overall-PQ isn't one of them.

Amazing to me that people don't consider image retention as part of picture quality. For me, seeing a ghost image of an old logo or HUD would be a total and absolute turnoff. Not to mention constantly worrying about permanent burn in. If lcd/led technology had these problems, the plasma people would most likely be screaming about it to high heaven.
post #62 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by p5browne View Post

Wife just came back from the Recycling area of our local dump. Noticed, the bulk of the TVs there for recycling were plasmas versus LEDs. All my LEDS I've gotten over the years are still working with their new owners except, my mother-in-laws that blew during a storm. 4 new capacitors - up and running again. My original former Sharp, also took a hit during a storm producing a line down the middle of the screen. UPSs everyone! And plug the TV in on the Battery side!

Your wife could tell the difference between a plasma set and an LCD set (I assume not all the LCD's in the pile weren't LED) sitting in a pile? wink.gif
post #63 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by pds3 View Post

Amazing to me that people don't consider image retention as part of picture quality. For me, seeing a ghost image of an old logo or HUD would be a total and absolute turnoff. Not to mention constantly worrying about permanent burn in. If lcd/led technology had these problems, the plasma people would most likely be screaming about it to high heaven.

Owned one for about 5 years now and it hasn't been an issue or even have a thought or worry about IR or burn in. smile.gif
post #64 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by pds3 View Post

Amazing to me that people don't consider image retention as part of picture quality. For me, seeing a ghost image of an old logo or HUD would be a total and absolute turnoff. Not to mention constantly worrying about permanent burn in. If lcd/led technology had these problems, the plasma people would most likely be screaming about it to high heaven.

well, shopping for a LED/LCD isn't exactly a picnic either; things to worry about include:

the LCD panel lottery (don't think there is any such thing as a PDP lottery in comparison)

viewing angle limitations (some sets have extremely limited viewing angles like those with S-MVA panels made by CMO; edge-lit LED-LCDs tend to have the worst viewing angles too)

screen/backlight uniformity issues (flashlighting, clouding, banding, DSE, etc)

black levels (while some panel types like S-MVA and S-PVA have great blacks, they washout off axis quite easily; on the other hand, IPS panels usually look the same from all angles in terms of color and contrast... but the blacks downright suck from all angles)

backlight buzzing (some sets have backlights that can buzz, like my LG LK450 CCFL-LCD... it only happens on certain scenes/patterns, but it's annoying when it happens)

perhaps the most important difference is plasma gives you the biggest screen with the best overall PQ for the least money, which is nothing to sneeze at
Edited by PlasmaPZ80U - 7/3/12 at 11:48am
post #65 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by pds3 View Post

Amazing to me that people don't consider image retention as part of picture quality. For me, seeing a ghost image of an old logo or HUD would be a total and absolute turnoff. Not to mention constantly worrying about permanent burn in. If lcd/led technology had these problems, the plasma people would most likely be screaming about it to high heaven.

IMO IR and Burn-in are way overblown. I've owned 4 plasmas and I have never gotten burn-in and I looked for it every chance I got. I watch a lot of channels with static bright logos (CNN, TSN etc..) and game a lot (PS3 and Wii) and never had issues. But you're right, it's something to be mindful of when you own a plasma and something you don't have to think about with LCDs. However, short of leaving a bright static image on overnight or a marathon gaming session using the same game you're really not going to get any burn-in. IR, sure but it's not permanent.
post #66 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by ATC7 View Post

IMO IR and Burn-in are way overblown. I've owned 4 plasmas and I have never gotten burn-in and I looked for it every chance I got. I watch a lot of channels with static bright logos (CNN, TSN etc..) and game a lot (PS3 and Wii) and never had issues. But you're right, it's something to be mindful of when you own a plasma and something you don't have to think about with LCDs. However, short of leaving a bright static image on overnight or a marathon gaming session using the same game you're really not going to get any burn-in. IR, sure but it's not permanent.

this has been my experience too, though I imagine not all plasmas are created equal when it comes to susceptibility to persistent IR and burn-in.
post #67 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

well, shopping for a LED/LCD isn't exactly a picnic either; things to worry about include:
the LCD panel lottery (don't think there is any such thing as a PDP lottery in comparison)
viewing angle limitations (some sets have extremely limited viewing angles like those with S-MVA panels made by CMO; edge-lit LED-LCDs tend to have the worst viewing angles too)
screen/backlight uniformity issues (flashlighting, clouding, banding, DSE, etc)
black levels (while some panel types like S-MVA and S-PVA have great blacks, they washout off axis quite easily; on the other hand, IPS panels usually look the same from all angles in terms of color and contrast... but the blacks downright suck from all angles)
backlight buzzing (some sets have backlights that can buzz, like my LG LK450 CCFL-LCD... it only happens on certain scenes/patterns, but it's annoying when it happens)
perhaps the most important difference is plasma gives you the biggest screen with the best overall PQ for the least money, which is nothing to sneeze at

I can't help but wonder why you keep posting in the LCD threads since you obviously have some kind of stigma against LCD tvs. You claim not to be biased but that's not the way it looks from where I'm sitting.
post #68 of 292
The ST50 is going to be better than most, if not any LED out there, and definitely better than anything at a similar price point.
post #69 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by ttnuagmada View Post

The ST50 is going to be better than most, if not any LED out there, and definitely better than anything at a similar price point.

Well then I guess they should just shut down all LCD production if the ST50 is that superior. No point in anybody buying an LCD.
post #70 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by pds3 View Post

I can't help but wonder why you keep posting in the LCD threads since you obviously have some kind of stigma against LCD tvs. You claim not to be biased but that's not the way it looks from where I'm sitting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pds3 View Post

Well then I guess they should just shut down all LCD production if the ST50 is that superior. No point in anybody buying an LCD.

I think you are being pretty black and white about this. Each technology has its own pros/cons but the best LEDs/LCDs out there that compete with mid to top-range plasmas typically cost way more, making plasma the better value if you want a big screen with top quality PQ at the lowest price possible. If your budget is unlimited or you're not looking for the best PQ possible but rather something more affordable and your viewing conditions and habits require a LED/LCD, then it's fine to get one. However, plasma offers the best bang for the buck and so I can't recommend spending thousands more on a LED-LCD just to get comparable PQ performance. If someone is looking for something more value priced (like myself) both LCD and Plasma offer good choices.

In other words, if you want a LED-LCD that has PQ comparable to a Panasonic ST50/GT50/VT50 or Samsung E6500/E7000/E8000, you'll end up spending way more and still have some PQ-related issues compared to those plasmas.
post #71 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

I think you are being pretty black and white about this. Each technology has its own pros/cons but the best LEDs/LCDs out there that compete with mid to top-range plasmas typically cost way more, making plasma the better value if you want a big screen with top quality PQ at the lowest price possible. If your budget is unlimited or you're not looking for the best PQ possible but rather something more affordable and your viewing conditions and habits require a LED/LCD, then it's fine to get one. However, plasma offers the best bang for the buck and so I can't recommend spending thousands more on a LED-LCD just to get comparable PQ performance. If someone is looking for something more value priced (like myself) both LCD and Plasma offer good choices.
In other words, if you want a LED-LCD that has PQ comparable to a Panasonic ST50/GT50/VT50 or Samsung E6500/E7000/E8000, you'll end up spending way more and still have some PQ-related issues compared to those plasmas.

Like I said, why do you keep posting in the LCD threads when you are obviously extremely plasma biased. I would think you should be posting in the plasma threads. We all understand how wonderful plasma is and that is what the Plasma threads are for. I would imagine most people go to the LCD threads to learn about LCD not Plasma.
post #72 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by pds3 View Post

Like I said, why do you keep posting in the LCD threads when you are obviously extremely plasma biased. I would think you should be posting in the plasma threads. We all understand how wonderful plasma is and that is what the Plasma threads are for. I would imagine most people go to the LCD threads to learn about LCD not Plasma.

Hmm, just a guess here but It could be his way of bitch slapping you.
post #73 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by sonyfan View Post

Hmm, just a guess here but It could be his way of bitch slapping you.

It seems more like trolling than bitch slapping
post #74 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by pds3 View Post

Like I said, why do you keep posting in the LCD threads when you are obviously extremely plasma biased. I would think you should be posting in the plasma threads. We all understand how wonderful plasma is and that is what the Plasma threads are for. I would imagine most people go to the LCD threads to learn about LCD not Plasma.

I am an owner of several LCD TVs (mostly Samsungs and one LG) and one (Panasonic) plasma. Since my usual TV budget is on the lower side (entry to mid-range 1080p sets), I prefer LCDs over entry-level plasmas (many of which are only 720p unless you choose a minimum screen size of 50"-51" or more) and there is more selection as well (brands and models). If I was looking for a 50"+ TV, I'd consider plasma. I'm not biased towards plasma, but rather overall PQ and value.
post #75 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

I am an owner of several LCD TVs (mostly Samsungs and one LG) and one (Panasonic) plasma. Since my usual TV budget is on the lower side (entry to mid-range 1080p sets), I prefer LCDs over entry-level plasmas (many of which are only 720p unless you choose a minimum screen size of 50"-51" or more) and there is more selection as well (brands and models). If I was looking for a 50"+ TV, I'd consider plasma. I'm not biased towards plasma, but rather overall PQ and value.

I too own both types.
I had a 2008 46" Panasonic plasma for the last four years in my main media room that is light controlled, and last year also bought a 32" Samsung LCD for a secondary room that has more light.

This past month I upgraded the media room to a 2012 50" panasonic plasma 50ST50 with 3D and its brighter and very inexpensive relative to the LED models I considered - the Samsung edgelit LEDs would cost me as much as double or even higher, and since I watch movies a lot in the dark, I wouldn't care for flashlighting/clouding effects after paying over double for an LED in that room.

So LCD/LEDs are good for some cases, and plasma better or more cost effective for other cases. There isn't one winner for all.
I actually wanted to get a big screen LED but only if it didn't have any flashlighting/clouding and didn't cost double or more than a good plasma model, since I do very much like the advantages of LCD/LED - lower power, no possibility of IR, brighter whites in mostly white scenes, etc.
post #76 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joxer View Post


This past month I upgraded the media room to a 2012 50" panasonic plasma 50ST50 with 3D and its brighter and very inexpensive relative to the LED models I considered - the Samsung edgelit LEDs would cost me as much as double or even higher, and since I watch movies a lot in the dark, I wouldn't care for flashlighting/clouding effects after paying over double for an LED in that room.
So LCD/LEDs are good for some cases, and plasma better or more cost effective for other cases. There isn't one winner for all.
I actually wanted to get a big screen LED but only if it didn't have any flashlighting/clouding and didn't cost double or more than a good plasma model, since I do very much like the advantages of LCD/LED - lower power, no possibility of IR, brighter whites in mostly white scenes, etc.

This is basically what I'm trying to say. If you're buying a 1080p TV under 50", you basically can only go the LED/LCD route (which isn't bad at that screen size range and low to moderate price point). If you want TV that's 50"+ and don't want to spend a small fortune, plasma is a good way to go. Both technologies have their pros/cons, so your personal preferences and viewing conditions/habits as well as budget will determine what TV tech (and model) is right for you.
post #77 of 292
Plasma's also have their issues besides buzzing, there is image retention and screen burn which some claim are now solved. . . . but why are plasma owners advised to "break in" their TV screens with slides and also told to be careful when gaming or leaving static images on fr more than a certain amount of time. Then there is screen glare which is onlyh a problem on some glossy screen LCD/LED TVs.

Also, in spite of what some people do, watching a flat panel TV in complete darkness is not advised, unless you want to reduce peak brightness down to 30 to 35Ftl or less. Even then, the dynamics and fast changes in some movies from full bright to dark will compromise picture quality and cause eye strain. Use of a low power bias light behind any flat panel TV is best.
post #78 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by pds3 View Post

Amazing to me that people don't consider image retention as part of picture quality. For me, seeing a ghost image of an old logo or HUD would be a total and absolute turnoff. Not to mention constantly worrying about permanent burn in. If lcd/led technology had these problems, the plasma people would most likely be screaming about it to high heaven.

It's not taken into consideration in regards to PQ because it's not the issue the way you think. You don't see ghostly images under normal TV viewing. The only time you see any IR is usually on a white screen and even then there has to be zero content on the screen to even notice it. Secondly IR doesn't happen instantly, this gets so blown out of proportion it's ridiculous. People that don't own plasmas get the perception that IR happens all the time/every time and it's not true. The image in question such as a station logos or letterbox have to remain on the screen a decent amount of time before any IR happens and this doesn't happen often seeing as commercial intermissions come up removing the logos. There are no logos watching Blu-rays. Amount of IR will last only a few minutes to an hour after normal TV viewing and you won't notice it really during this time so it never disturbs PQ.
post #79 of 292
It appears the 2012 Panasonic Plasma sets are very susceptible to both IR and burn in. Someone with children can really get nailed if their kids watch the cartoon network with its' rather dynamic logo.
post #80 of 292
I have the Samsung PN43E450 Plasma and there have been no IR problems
even when leaving the DVR on pause for 30min or more.
It uses the 'Clear Image' panel as does the E8000 and E490.
I don't know how much the glass panel has to do with it
and it does have excellent picture processing power.
I think that has a lot to do with it.
Picture processing is often overlooked but it's a huge
factor especially with HD cable/sat feed and don't want
ANY motion blur or artifacts. Even SD looks great.
post #81 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phase700B View Post

Also, in spite of what some people do, watching a flat panel TV in complete darkness is not advised, unless you want to reduce peak brightness down to 30 to 35Ftl or less. Even then, the dynamics and fast changes in some movies from full bright to dark will compromise picture quality and cause eye strain. Use of a low power bias light behind any flat panel TV is best.

Any TV looks better in the dark and with my Plasma I drop the
Constrast down to 95 or 93 and Brightness to 30 and I'm good to go.
I was watching a 'high contrast' film called Preist and in the dark it looks sick with the Brightness at 25!
post #82 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by pds3 View Post

It appears the 2012 Panasonic Plasma sets are very susceptible to both IR and burn in. Someone with children can really get nailed if their kids watch the cartoon network with its' rather dynamic logo.

Could you provide the source as to where you read that the 2012 plasmas were very susceptible to burn-in?
post #83 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by HLdan View Post

Could you provide the source as to where you read that the 2012 plasmas were very susceptible to burn-in?

Here's one of them:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1414908/panasonic-st50-image-retention-please-help#post_22118828
post #84 of 292

That's not proof of burn-in. You're posting links within AVS to people posting their opinions. I'm pretty sure you knew I was asking for concrete proof. Burn-in can happen on even LCD if you try and force the issue such as leaving static images on the screen for a very extended amount of time. That would be the same for plasma. The 2012 models were just released in March. I have not seen one iota of concrete information stating they were very susceptible to burn-in. That's a very strong statement you're making.
post #85 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by HLdan View Post

That's not proof of burn-in. You're posting links within AVS to people posting their opinions. I'm pretty sure you knew I was asking for concrete proof. Burn-in can happen on even LCD if you try and force the issue such as leaving static images on the screen for a very extended amount of time. That would be the same for plasma. The 2012 models were just released in March. I have not seen one iota of concrete information stating they were very susceptible to burn-in. That's a very strong statement you're making.


Can't say I ever knew anybody with burn in issues on a modern LCD tv.


Just do a general search for Panasonic Image Retention. You will find more than a few complaints. You don't think Panasonic is going to tell you about the problem on their website do you?
post #86 of 292
There are plenty of complaints on the 2012 Panasonic AVS sight to indicate that IR is a concern. When some say they have sent there set back and the new replacement is just as bad, that's a concern. When experienced Panasonic plasma owners are saying that IR is rearing it's ugly head shortly after running break-in slides that's a concern. When new owners are saying the Samsung's have no IR and the Panasonic's do, that's a concern. I'm in the market for a 65 inch or larger display and I'm concerned. The professional reviews of the 2012 Panasonic's rave about the great PQ but the don't keep the sets long enough to see if IR becomes a problem.
post #87 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by HLdan View Post

It's not taken into consideration in regards to PQ because it's not the issue the way you think. You don't see ghostly images under normal TV viewing. The only time you see any IR is usually on a white screen and even then there has to be zero content on the screen to even notice it. Secondly IR doesn't happen instantly, this gets so blown out of proportion it's ridiculous. People that don't own plasmas get the perception that IR happens all the time/every time and it's not true. The image in question such as a station logos or letterbox have to remain on the screen a decent amount of time before any IR happens and this doesn't happen often seeing as commercial intermissions come up removing the logos. There are no logos watching Blu-rays. Amount of IR will last only a few minutes to an hour after normal TV viewing and you won't notice it really during this time so it never disturbs PQ.

As an actual owner of a plasma TV, I can concur with what you have said 100%. I'm not saying no plasma has an annoying or even troubling amount of IR, especially during the first couple hundred of hours, just that the issue is not as common or typical as one might think if they've never owned a plasma TV.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pds3 View Post

It appears the 2012 Panasonic Plasma sets are very susceptible to both IR and burn in. Someone with children can really get nailed if their kids watch the cartoon network with its' rather dynamic logo.

If you're worried about your children leaving static elements on the screen for extended periods of time (beyond 2-3 hours or so), then maybe plasma isn't for you. However, not all plasmas are equally susceptible to IR or the much rarer burn-in, so do your research before buying and avoid running the TV in torch mode or with very high contrast settings to minimize the risk of IR/burn-in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by andy sullivan View Post

There are plenty of complaints on the 2012 Panasonic AVS sight to indicate that IR is a concern. When some say they have sent there set back and the new replacement is just as bad, that's a concern. When experienced Panasonic plasma owners are saying that IR is rearing it's ugly head shortly after running break-in slides that's a concern. When new owners are saying the Samsung's have no IR and the Panasonic's do, that's a concern. I'm in the market for a 65 inch or larger display and I'm concerned. The professional reviews of the 2012 Panasonic's rave about the great PQ but the don't keep the sets long enough to see if IR becomes a problem.

Do your research and if you're not comfortable with the potential risk of IR/burn-in then get a LCD/LED. However, don't assume all plasma TVs have issues with IR/burn-in or that they need to be constantly babied as this is simply not true. Just don't use overly bright picture settings and don't leave static images/elements on the screen for more than a couple hours and you should be just fine.
post #88 of 292
It's worth mentioning not all plasmas have issues with ambient light hitting the screen and washing out the blacks or causing annoying reflections. Those with the dark filter outperform glossy LEDs/LCDs and are nearly as good as matte LEDs/LCDs.
post #89 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by pds3 View Post

Someone with children can really get nailed if their kids watch the cartoon network with its' rather dynamic logo.
Burn in isn't the only danger to TVs from small children, I've read posts on AVS before telling of their new big screen LED TV being broken by a small child throwing a toy at it... biggrin.gif
post #90 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phase700B View Post

Plasma's also have their issues besides buzzing, there is image retention and screen burn which some claim are now solved. . . . but why are plasma owners advised to "break in" their TV screens with slides and also told to be careful when gaming or leaving static images on fr more than a certain amount of time. Then there is screen glare which is onlyh a problem on some glossy screen LCD/LED TVs.
Also, in spite of what some people do, watching a flat panel TV in complete darkness is not advised, unless you want to reduce peak brightness down to 30 to 35Ftl or less. Even then, the dynamics and fast changes in some movies from full bright to dark will compromise picture quality and cause eye strain. Use of a low power bias light behind any flat panel TV is best.

This is NOT the reason people "break in" their TV. It has NOTHING to do with IR. Plasma color and brightness tend to shift withing the first 100 or so hours. After that it settles to what should be their final level. most people break in their TV because they want to accelerate that period so that they can get their TV calibrated without fear that their actual colors and brightness will continue to fluctuate.

It's pure myth that this "help" regarding burn-in.
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