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DIY Clone of Seaton Submersive HP - Page 2

post #31 of 59
6/30/12 at 2:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdlynch View Post

Ok- This build makes the $$/dB very obvious. For the price of this build I can have eight 12" infinity drivers, in four enclosures, with the inuke dsp3000 amp. I am starting to see the light come on smile.gif

If you're only using the NU3000 amp you are actually not going to get more output with 8 Infinities vs the pair of dual opposed titanics with an EP4000, FYI.

(The EP4000 measured 800 wpc at 2ohm, and is more powerful then the NU3000 by all accounts)
Edited by Jay1 - 6/30/12 at 2:16pm
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post #32 of 59
6/30/12 at 2:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

oops, never mind, it was the Infinity driver, not Alpine.
http://www.amazon.com/Infinity-Reference-1260w-1200-watt-High-Performance/dp/B0028AVGEO/ref=pd_cp_e_0/190-3323293-3244033


any existing builds around this driver?
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post #33 of 59
6/30/12 at 4:26pm
i havent looked too in depth at the drivers you are referencing but i think the alpine is pretty respectable with regard to build quality with the inductance being relatively low.

If you are going to compare inductance of the infinity to the alpine compare the ratio of Le/Re. This number allows you to compare nominal inductance on an apples to apples basis but also will not take into account variance of Le over stroke.
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post #34 of 59
6/30/12 at 5:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdlynch View Post

Ok- This build makes the $$/dB very obvious. For the price of this build I can have eight 12" infinity drivers, in four enclosures, with the inuke dsp3000 amp. I am starting to see the light come on smile.gif

Yes, but you are discounting size and complexity. What you are facing are the constraints of Hoffman's "Iron Law" (box size, bass extension, efficiency - pick any two.) I would add cost to the equation - deep, powerful bass is not cheap.

JP
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post #35 of 59
6/30/12 at 6:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay1 View Post

If you're only using the NU3000 amp you are actually not going to get more output with 8 Infinities vs the pair of dual opposed titanics with an EP4000, FYI.
(The EP4000 measured 800 wpc at 2ohm, and is more powerful then the NU3000 by all accounts)

Behringer has the iNuke 3000DSP listed at 1040 watts/channel at 2 ohms RMS. Agreed the output would be about the same but the cost will be a good deal less.

4 Titanic 15"'s are $1000
8 Infinity's are $480
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post #36 of 59
6/30/12 at 6:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by zora View Post

Yes, but you are discounting size and complexity. What you are facing are the constraints of Hoffman's "Iron Law" (box size, bass extension, efficiency - pick any two.) I would add cost to the equation - deep, powerful bass is not cheap.
JP

This quad array will hit hard at low frequency. It has displacement. I don't see this approach as problem it isn't complex by a long shot. Simply a sub array.
Edited by Jinjuku - 6/30/12 at 6:45pm
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post #37 of 59
6/30/12 at 6:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinjuku View Post

This quad array will hit hard at low frequency. It has displacement. I don't see this approach as problem it isn't complex by a long shot. Simply a sub array.

I agree, it isn't really complicated but compared to a single dual-opposed box it is more complex. The build is either "budget" or not. If the OP wanted a true Submersive clone, then that is an entirely different build.
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post #38 of 59
6/30/12 at 7:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by zora View Post

I agree, it isn't really complicated but compared to a single dual-opposed box it is more complex. The build is either "budget" or not. If the OP wanted a true Submersive clone, then that is an entirely different build.

I agree with you on that point. My goal is to maximize budget were placement will allow. I'm willing to do any implementation that David desires just really trying to get the most out of it that placement and budget allows. We actually started with potentially doing two sealed 18" eD subs. I'm absolutely a fan of multiple subs because I get to lean less on EQ.

I would freaking LOVE to do a 16 driver Infinity array with 4Kw of power. That would be brutal eek.gif
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post #39 of 59
6/30/12 at 7:30pm
for a diy seaton clone, use the same drivers, enclosure, amp, eq, finish and kick in a warranty. :-)

if you want a behringer, infintity, diy combo go with that. :-) the octofinity build might outperform 2 submersives in some ways by a little if the specs on the drivers and amps are accurate and will cost a lot less.
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post #40 of 59
6/30/12 at 8:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

the octofinity build might outperform 2 submersives in some ways by a little if the specs on the drivers and amps are accurate and will cost a lot less.

The scary part is with the quad-array and the iNuke 3000 there is a little bit of performance left on the table:eek: If 1400 wpc could be had that would be optimal.
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post #41 of 59
6/30/12 at 9:04pm
If it was my money for $1500, I'd do a FP10kQ clone with any quad sub config of your choice @4ohm., 2kW x 4
Behringer amps are great for PA subs and FH's, but when it comes to high power infrasonics I doubt they are anywhere near the same level of performance as these bigger amps.
It will be worth every penny extra spent.

My 2 cents
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post #42 of 59
6/30/12 at 10:59pm
"when it comes to high power infrasonics I doubt they are anywhere near the same level of performance as these bigger amps."

prove it. also that clone is really playing wild west, not that i have anything against that, it is just a different game.

8 drives at $60 with free shipping and a $400 amp isn't $1500. he is talking more of a fully baked cost.
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post #43 of 59
6/30/12 at 11:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinjuku View Post

The scary part is with the quad-array and the iNuke 3000 there is a little bit of performance left on the table:eek: If 1400 wpc could be had that would be optimal.

get a peavey ipr3000 from ebay probably has truer watts than an inuke...
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post #44 of 59
6/30/12 at 11:05pm
"quad-array"

i thought you were talking about 8 drivers.
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post #45 of 59
6/30/12 at 11:08pm
"get a peavey ipr3000 from ebay probably has truer watts than an inuke"

prove it.
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post #46 of 59
6/30/12 at 11:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"get a peavey ipr3000 from ebay probably has truer watts than an inuke"
prove it.

make me rolleyes.gif

I have an inuke 3000 and it clips way easier than my ep4000. The ep4000 is already overrated and its FACT that an ep2500 is the same as an ep4000 but the ep4000 has way higher specs on paper than the ep2500 (because behringer overrates their crap nowadays)

The ipr600 measures fairly close to its specs, we have zero measurements of inukes.

Hence the use of the word "probably"
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post #47 of 59
7/1/12 at 12:24am
"we have zero measurements of inukes."

?

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f15/behringer-inuke-power-amplifiers-788601/

http://www.djz.dk/interaktivt/forum/visemne/341547/
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post #48 of 59
7/1/12 at 12:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

prove it.
I know what the EP4k can't do wink.gif It clips too easily compared to the big amps, it's like 1/2 the price and 1/4 the power. Is it still worth it? Only you can decide.
It's a great amp, up to the point where it clips... and then the difference becomes very obvious.
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post #49 of 59
7/1/12 at 1:00am
your claim was a peavey ipr 3000 against an inuke 3000, which is a fair question.

the inuke has been tested. the results have been posted. where is the ipr test?
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post #50 of 59
7/1/12 at 1:32am
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"we have zero measurements of inukes."
?
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f15/behringer-inuke-power-amplifiers-788601/
http://www.djz.dk/interaktivt/forum/visemne/341547/

http://www.avsforum.com/t/855865/measuring-amplifiers/1650#post_18534472

Ive seen that review and i still dont know what to do with a review of a nu3000 that consists of "and the bulb lights up just fine. "

Is that all it takes to measure an amplifier? have some lamps of varying wattages? I dont think its a very accurate form of testing
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post #51 of 59
7/1/12 at 2:00am
"Ive seen that review and i still dont know what to do with a review of a nu3000 that consists of "and the bulb lights up just fine."

he was putting a purely resistive load on the amp and seeing what it would do. that is actually one of the most extreme tests for an amp. outside of hitting a ported cab on tuning or a sealed cab around 10hz, no amp will actually be required to deliver such current. if you like to see either of those, the lightbulb test is what you want to look at as it is purely resistive.
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post #52 of 59
7/1/12 at 5:56am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

for a diy seaton clone, use the same drivers, enclosure, amp, eq, finish and kick in a warranty. :-)
if you want a behringer, infintity, diy combo go with that. :-) the octofinity build might outperform 2 submersives in some ways by a little if the specs on the drivers and amps are accurate and will cost a lot less.

You are correct in pointing out my incorrect use of the word "clone". Since this is a DIY forum with the premise for most projects being lowest cost possible I was hoping someone might have a build that would have performance equal or better than that of the submersive HP using DIY components at a much lower cost.

Thank you to all who have taken the time to offer their input. I am very much in the beginning stages of learning about DIY subwoofers and truly appreciate the education. I am fortunate to live near Jinjuku and even more fortunate that he is offering to help me with this build.
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post #53 of 59
7/1/12 at 6:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"quad-array"
i thought you were talking about 8 drivers.

Quad dual opposed sealed boxes. I think I like the sound of 'Octoinfinity' better though smile.gif
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post #54 of 59
7/1/12 at 6:48am
another inuke nu3000 test

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/class-d/213071-behringer-inuke-nu3000-measurements.html
Quote:
I am posting some measurement data on the NU3000 that might be of use to those considering the purchase.

Output Power:
No load max output voltage was 50Vrms per channel.

With resistive loads, power output at clipping was pretty darn close to:
300Wrms/8ohm/channel
600Wrms/4ohm/channel
1000Wrms/2ohm/channel
2000Wrms/4ohm/bridged

So, it seems you can pretty much take the Behringer specs and divide the power ratings by sqrt(2).

It has been brought to my attention that Behringer does provide RMS Power ratings in a brochure, just not in the manual.
They line up well with measurements summarized above. See post#11 below:

Frequency Response:
Attachment #1: Resistive load test
Attachment #2: Capacitive load test
Attachment #3: Inductive load test
Attachment #4: ESL load test


In Summary:
- For the money this amp puts out plenty of power, but load induced HF response changes indicate it is probably best used for subwoofer duty.
- The DSP is pretty slick. In particular, very handy to be able to dial in limiter setting in real time to keep woofer excursion below the clatter zone.
- Not recommended for driving ESLs.
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post #55 of 59
7/1/12 at 3:54pm
nice pull zheka. that was the one that i was looking for last night but could not find it.

pretty much matches the specs in the brochure:
http://www.behringer.com/assets/NU1000_NU3000_NU6000_NU1000DSP_NU3000DSP_NU6000DSP_WebBrochure.pdf

since rms power is technically 0.707 (1/root2) of peak for a sine wave, the behringer specs are actually accurate in some sense (peak voltage equivalent watts is more of what it should be called). i agree that the marketing team is being misleading by quoting peak power when just about everybody wants to know rms power and is why i tell folks to put a discount on the marketing specs.

459

"You are correct in pointing out my incorrect use of the word "clone"."

no worries. your octofinity build will produce a prodigious amount of bass for much less money than two seaton subs.
Edited by LTD02 - 7/1/12 at 4:03pm
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post #56 of 59
7/1/12 at 4:09pm
"I know what the EP4k can't do It clips too easily compared to the big amps, it's like 1/2 the price and 1/4 the power. Is it still worth it? Only you can decide."

if by "big amps", you mean the gray market lab gruppen semi-clones, i agree.
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post #57 of 59
7/3/12 at 7:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinjuku View Post

That alpine doesn't model smoothly for home use. Not nearly as smooth as the Infinity. The main problem being a high inductance voice coil. It sure has output between 50 and 80hz however. Two of the Alpines only net about another dB at 20hz.

Can you please elaborate on what kind of inductance isnt good for home theater, because most dual voice coil 15" subs have similar Le numbers so im confused. Even copper shorting rings in the type r 1243d = similar inductance.
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post #58 of 59
7/5/12 at 12:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinjuku View Post

I don't believe that driver is available anymore and while it does net another 3dB in output (as it should) what was the cost?

I'm not saying it's available, it's just a superbly detailed build thread of conception, design, construction, implementation, and optimization of a pair of small-sealed, dual opposed. Anyone contemplating such an approach would be well served to read it.


I'm not up on what's available these days, seems products come and go. The Titanic always seems to be there, the aforementioned 15" LMS, also, I'd examine Fi's offerings, enormous bang for the buck,...IMO. Displacement would be key, tons of it in multiples (stay away from the excursion limits, spread the signal across multiple VC's, limiting compression effects),... then optimize the subsequent install with measured results at the LP, ... and you're there. smile.gif
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post #59 of 59
7/5/12 at 1:02pm
What amps have been tested for under 20hz? I don't recall any, the EP-2500 was tested at 20hz and then assume it's specs of flat to 5hz. I still think it gets the job done.
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