Home A/V distribution advice needed to build system - Page 2

Well, the cost of an iDevice to leave in each zone for similar accessibility is ~$200/zone... And yes, some systems more open than others. My NuVo shows excellent metadata on streaming sources (from their server product, of course), and I've added my own stuff for some non-NuVo sources using their API...

Hopefully we'll see more "open" keypad / control panel devices in the near future, although the equivalent of a wall-mounted iPod is not what I'd want. To do it correctly, there needs to be a "single app", which has required either high-end custom work or "proprietary" stuff (I don't like using that word in this context - the keypads are part of a single product)...

But yes, as long as the wiring is in place, pick and choose your solution!


Jeff

I definitely hit this internal switch bandwidth limitation with my old 10/100 switch. The only reason I bring this up is because over the Christmas holiday a couple of years ago when our house was essentially "maxed out" with friends and family - kids watching a movie downstairs, some watching a football game via DirecTV whole-house network box, and the women-folk streaming a Netflix movie. We had bottlenecks galore on our 10/100 switch - and I didn't even have Blu Ray streaming at the time. Since then I updated my wireless network to two simultaneous dual band access points (D-Link DAP-2690) with a robust Gigabit small business level switch (Cisco SRW-2048) - all connected by new Cat-6 wiring for all devices. Since then we have purposely tried to overload the network as a test when everyone is in town and there wasn't even a glimmer of network slowdown. The only thing that was obvious was a bit longer download times from our ISP. I have the QoS set for my VoIP and several other devices with everything else getting the "leftovers" of the download rate which was evident when you have an army of iPads and devices simultaneously downloading and streaming content as the buffer times were much longer.

I would KILL to have Verizon Fios here in Charlotte, but alas it is not available in my area so I am stuck with 25Mbps downstream on my cable modem.

Thanks for the correction on the HDBaseT run length - hopefully manufacturers will jump on board and start to offer this feature.

My system design philosophy is that simpler is always better. With that in mind, you have to look at the practical aspect of how often you would actually be doing this split activity and how do you hook it up / control it.

I once had a client who wanted this scenario in his basement bar area where he could hit one button and have the TV go to closed-captioned and his music would come through the in-ceiling speakers instead of the TV audio. It wasn't too bad to do given that he had a full-blown AMX control system and separate distribution matrices for analog audio and video. The most difficult part was sequencing a series of key punches on the DirecTV remote as if you were physically pressing the buttons yourself to turn closed-captioning on and off since there was no single button on/off for cc. It worked great until DirecTV decided to update their firmware and menu structures from time to time and then we would have to reprogram just that piece.

Anywho, to do what you want above properly you would really have to move into an analog audio distribution matrix in addition to your HDMI matrix. An HDMI signal from the matrix would be sent to one input and the analog audio from the other matrix would be sent to a different input on the same receiver. What I am about to propose will ONLY work if the receiver you choose has a flexible architecture to assign video and audio inputs to any source. So for the HDMI input, video and audio would come from the same source. For the second input (cable box video and analog music audio), hopefully your receiver would allow you to assign HDMI for the video portion of the signal and analog audio for the audio portion of the signal. If not, then this method will not work.

Another approach is to have a 1x2 HDMI splitter in between the output of the HDMI matrix switch and the AVR. One HDMI will come out of this splitter and go straight to your TV. A second HDMI will come out of the AVR and go straight to your TV. Analog audio would be plugged into a source as normal. So when you watch TV with TV audio, just select the input on the AVR that has the HDMI and the video input on the TV that uses the HDMI coming from the AVR. When you want to watch TV video and listen to analog music, simply select the analog input for this source on the AVR and switch the TV's HDMI input that uses the HDMI coming from the 1x2 splitter.

With your system's limited capabilities, this is really the only way to do it without adding significantly more equipment and expense / complication. There are more elegant methods, but it involves significant investment into quality matrix switchers and control systems.

I personally hate the methods described above and would really challenge you on how much you would actually watch something different than what is displayed. If you do this a lot, then I would say that is a whole different conversation where you should be investing another $2-$3k into your system for PROPER system design rather than "finding a way" using your existing equipment.

PayPal bill sent....LOL!

I forgot you were only sending video to three zones and had the spare fourth zone available to go to your theater AVR - so good solution you proposed.

As for cheap stereo amplifiers, I am not sure what is really out there because dedicated stereo amplifiers are normally only higher-end pieces from higher-end manufacturers. To me, cheap means mass market which means integrated (like a receiver). I am sure you can go find some cheap used AVRs to do the trick but if you just want to get the 2-channel amplifiers I would recommend Rotel as some of the least expensive and highest value units. They have many 2-channel amplifiers that originally sold for $600 or $800 selling now in the $150 to $300 each range. They automatically turn on when they detect a signal and turn off after a certain period of inactivity. They also run very cool and will do a nice job powering your system. So control would be easy in the sense that you are still manipulating zone on /off, zone volume up/down and zone source selection.

As for the remote, you could literally have three RF remotes programmed identically for control of the system. Step one would be to simply select what zone you are in so that particular remote knows when to cue the video display device via IR, the what zone the receiver is controlling the volume for from that particular remote. From there zone 2 and 3 would also be identical, just triggering separate discreet commands for zone on/off, volume, source selection and local video. You may be able to save some money by just buying one complete remote package and then just purchasing two additional RF remotes only that will talk to the same receiver module / IR emitter system.

For cheap stereo amps for Zone 2/3 usage, can't beat the street price on the AudioSource AMP-100. Has auto-on/off 'signal sense', so perfect for a zone amp...

For remotes - are you not looking at one of the matrix switches with IR routing included? That's the best way to solve this, so that you don't have any issues/complexity if you end up with multiple set-top boxes, for example.

And regardless of IR or RF, do as TMcG suggested and use the same remote everywhere - makes it easy for everyone.

Jeff

Yes, you'll need a zone amp for each zone.

As for IR routing, this Monoprice matrix includes it, for example:

http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=109&cp_id=10113&cs_id=1011310&p_id=8151&seq=1&format=2

IR routing means that IR received in each zone is routed ONLY to the selected source on the matrix switch. This makes it much simpler to deal with multiple, identical sources (like 3 set-top boxes). Without routing, identical source components need to be set to different IR codesets or some other solution will have to be devised...


Jeff

The HDMI Matrix essentially has an IR "input" that can receive IR signals from a specific zone and re-transmit that IR code to a specific piece of equipment. For example, if you had two DVR cable boxes and one was playing in the theater and the other in the family room and you decide to press "pause" on the family room DVR.....if you have the remote set up to flash ALL equipment, then BOTH DVRs in the equipment room will receive the same "pause" signal and pause play on both DVRs. By routing IR from a specific zone to a specific IR output to a specific piece of equipment you can easily handle this potential issue.

The only additional thing I would add is an IR blocker sticker to cover the IR emitter stuck to the front of your equipment completely. That way no stray IR light will be received by similar equipment. The same would hold true if you had two identical AVRs for these second and third zones.

Let's say you have four identical cable set-top boxes hooked to your matrix. If you stood in front of all of them, and pointed the remote at the stack and pressed "channel up", what would happen? All four would change channels. Now do the same thing remotely with an IR repeater, with the IR signal showing up in front of all four. Same result. So someone in one room just changed the channel on all of them.

IR routing, would instead, send that repeated IR signal to ONLY one emitter, placed in front of a single set-top box. Now, pressing "channel up" in that room only changes the channel on the currently selected source (one of the set-top boxes instead of all four).

Many set-top boxes have selectable IR addresses to deal with this type of situation, but using that feature means having to create different remote setups for each source - which may require more expensive remotes (due to the number of "devices"), and certainly adds to the programming complexity.

As for the HDMI common-denominator issue - yep, you're going to hit it. Audio from any shared source will likely be set to 2-channel PCM stereo as that's all most TVs support (new models are starting to do DD5.1). For any location that you want DD51, and especially for advanced codecs from Blu-ray - you'll want to either dedicate a separate source (BD player), or run a separate digital audio cable.

Jeff

1) Get a matrix with IR routing. That's why they make them...
2) Look at your device mix and see how much of an issue it will be. If you only have two set-top boxes, and those have selectable IR addresses, it can be managed.

1) Use a component video matrix instead of HDMI
2) Dedicate a BD player or AppleTV to any surround setup.
3) Spend $15k+ for a Crestron matrix...

+1 to what Jautor said. You have to realize that there will be sacrifices unless you make the investment in the right pieces of equipment to satisfy every nuance of audio/video distribution and control. It makes me think of the guys who tune a 1.8 liter Honda Civic engine with a bunch of stuff to get an equivalent 0 to 60 time to that of an everyday sport sedan. You are at the point you either have to live with and accept some of the sacrifices that are commensurate with making equipment do what it is not normally designed to do.....OR.....just buck up and buy what you really should be buying to do everything you would like to accomplish.
Edited by TMcG - 7/16/12 at 11:53am

Correct. There's three buckets of devices when it comes to audio support:

1) TVs - 2 channel stereo (PCM)
2) New TVs - 5.1 DD support, downmixed internally to 2-channel stereo
3) AVR's with DD, DTS-MA, etc. and >5 channel support

The only source for content that requires #3 is Blu-Ray (or digital rips thereof) - and yes, while DVDs also have DTS, you can probably "make it by" with the DD5.1 tracks...

For television/streaming HDTV content, you only need #2 or #3. So it's possible to build a setup (less $$ than the Crestron solution) with newer TVs, AVRs, and dedicated BD players...

There you go, tuning that Honda Civic engine again.

Seriously, I had to read this three times before I could even understand what you were proposing. My opinion is too many splitters, too many looped feeds and too confusing to control. To put it another way - use the Grandma / Parents / Babysitter / Visiting Guest rule of thumb.....can you say "the remote is on the coffee table if you want to watch TV" and then walk away with the expectation that they could actually get everything running with no further instruction from you. If they can't, then it's too damn complicated.

It sounds like you just need to buy dedicated systems for each room and be done with it.

HDMI splitters won't help any of this. HDMI audio/video settings are negotiated between the source and display(s). Regardless of how it's split / repeated / matrixed, at some point you have X displays requesting output from a single source device. The source has to figure out what works for all of them, and send that.

On the NextGen remote - yes, it works very well. But I agree with TMcG again here - it's gotta be simple for all the users... And honestly, if the step up to an RF remote solution or a IR-routing matrix is the cost-breakpoint, you probably should stick with dedicated sources (but if there's pre-wiring to be done - spend that money!). Building a fragile and/or complicated A/V distribution system is a good way to get the entire family mad at you...

Jeff

That's not what we are saying at all. Get a 3-zone AVR with 2 two-channel amps, an HDMI Matrix that has discreet IR output ports (IF you have two pieces of identical equipment (such as a DVR) where the remote codes cannot be individualized), one remote with RF kit and two other identical remotes that can link to the same RF base. That's it. Enough analysis paralysis. Go buy it, install it and enjoy it!

We only ever advised to go with separate systems in each room if you start to veer down the path of making the system too complicated where only you can work it. That is the easiest way to piss off anyone who wants to watch TV, listen to music, etc. who can't easily control the end-result of your system design. With the proposed system above you are really at the limit of what can be done with a minimal equipment for three discreet AV zones. Doing ANYTHING more will put you over the line in terms of complicating the system and at that point it is not worth it to push a bad situation. You MUST keep it easy to wire and control to make it usable.
Edited by TMcG - 7/17/12 at 5:40am

I am very surprise that no one comment about the speakers and the sub selection.

I’ve never seen an in-ceiling setup that I like. Pre-wire the sub is fine but keep in mind that you’ll need room treatment and calibration tools to account for the sub placement. 10” sub (x2) usually do not have enough LFE to pressurize a room with a 130” screen.

The sound is what pulls viewers into the action. I didn’t see 3D mention in the OP, if 3D is in the picture; the sound setup gets even more complicated. In my setup, people sit ~17-20 feet for 2D but move closer ~10 feet for 3D (on a 120 screen). That’s a good change in sweet spots.

My recommendation:
Room treatment: This is where you get your best bang for your money. At least take care of the first inflection points.

Speakers: DIY for in-wall. I recommend In-Khan-Neato setup. They can be done for around $600/pair + 2 weekends or so. Great learning experience.

Sub: good commercial one such as the SVS or HSU. Keep in mind they’ll be expensive and large. You can also DIY which is much easier than DIY speakers.

Receiver: Denon 4311 for its’ XT32 and great sub calibration routine.

Amplifier: I use the earth quake cinenova because my speakers are 4-ohm at 88-90db efficiency + large room. You may be able to get away w/o one.
For electronic: For ease of use (wife/kid etc) I also have apple TV (x3). With airplay, people can have the movie/music follow them when they move into different rooms. I have a dedicated server with 10TB space to host movies/video for my network players/apple TV etc. I do not have discs around my house. All disc is backup onto the server and stored in nearby shelves. I also have iPads around as universal remote control for apple TVs.

Honestly, didn't even see it, until the wiring is figured out, equipment can wait...

But yeah, for any planned, dedicated theater, in-ceiling speakers for the mains (L/C/R) are a definite no-no. Those speakers need to surround the screen, or be behind it with an acoustically transparent screen (either way works). If it's truly a "dedicated" theater, no reason to use in-ceilings in the surrounds, either.

Jeff

You can't save the whole world from bad audio!

I disagree. I think you'll be unhappy with the performance / characteristics of ceiling-based LCR speakers for a theater setting. For non-dedicated theater space, in-ceiling surrounds are a very reasonable compromise if there aren't wall locations available. For the fronts, though, you're moving the source of sound pretty far away from the screen, which is unnatural and distracting - particularly for dialog (voices don't appear to come from the same place as the image). Nothing wrong with some good quality in-wall speakers for LCR if you want to avoid exposed speakers. Put them as close to the screen frame as possible within reason. An acoustically-transparent screen, again, can place the in-walls behind the screen...

As for subs - yep, wire for two locations. Wire is cheap.

Jeff

Which is why I suggested looking at acoustically transparent screens and in-walls behind it... At 12' you shouldn't have any issues with an AT screen. Look at the SMX stuff...

So the walls are finished already?

IMO, making huge compromises on speaker placement to get a bigger screen size is not a good trade off...

As to the matrix - for sources other than BD, you can run separate digital audio links to your AVR to ensure you get DD5.1. But that will depend on two things:

1) the source able to provide DD output even if the audio-over-HDMI is 2-channel PCM
2) Your AVR's ability to accept a separate audio source input for HDMI video inputs

As Blu-ray (can) use audio codecs that can only be transmitted over HDMI (DTS-MA, DD+), your only choice is to dedicate a player to the theater setup.

URC remotes can be programmed by end users if they have the software - you do need to talk to an authorized dealer to buy it from them, and your mileage will vary as to accessibility of the software. URC has been a @#$^#$% about it over the years, and has been generally unfriendly to the enthusiast market - which is one reason why you see such a draw to iRule / Roomie...

Jeff