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Comparison, Unbiased Review & Ranking of 12 High-End Home Cinema Audio Systems - Page 9

post #241 of 406
Here's another point that nobody has commented on. How does a speaker with a 5" cone play at reference level with "virtually no cone movement?"
That seems physically impossible to me.
post #242 of 406
Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

Here's another point that nobody has commented on. How does a speaker with a 5" cone play at reference level with "virtually no cone movement?"
That seems physically impossible to me.

Magic cones. It's Steinway..
post #243 of 406
OK, so we have a claim of this "boundary woofer" being capable of 121dB at 4M at 25Hz (assuming a conservative 116dB reading of that meter and 5dB correction factor). THD? Who knows, but let's ignore that.

Let's take two 10" drivers, give them say... 30mm xmax each (60mm peak to peak- extremely doubtful, but let's go with it) and see what physics says about the air they move at 25Hz.

110.6dB @ 1M

That's ~99dB at 4M.

The claim thus, is that this room is providing 22dB of support at 25Hz. rolleyes.gif
post #244 of 406
Quote:
Originally Posted by madboynutter View Post

Oh and that's not at all patronizing is it? rolleyes.gif
It's funny, I thought this was a forum for intellectual discussion of A/V equipment... wink.gif
Like I've honestly stated from the very beginning I am not a SOUND ENGINEER however I do know a little bit more about A/V and a mere ENTHUSIAST; something which I have just demonstrated wherein about a dozen AV PROFESSIONALS have repeatedly stated a fact that GECKO, the UK Distributor for Steinway Lyngdorf have just debunked and proven is entirely INCORRECT. So "SEE, I told you!" and stick that it your pipe and smoke it. smile.gif

1-yes it was patronizing. That is exactly the way it was meant to be
2-yes, this is exactly a forum for intelligent discussion about all things audio visual
3-most of us here know exactly what you are not. The question that keeps coming to my mind is what is your angle? You have an agenda, that much is obvious. The fact that almost every response you have given has ALWAYS included the name and model number of a specific speaker is certainly enough to convince me you are a shameless schill. You do not know more than a mere enthusiast. Many people on this forum consider themselves audio enthusiasts and most of them are vastly more knowledgable than you when it comes to speakers, design, crossovers, etc, etc, etc. You proved no one wrong. You provided anecdotal evidence that has not been substantiated by anyone. All you have to do to convince this crowd is provide MEASUREMENTS by the manufacturer and or measurements in your room. Then, if you are proven correct, you can say i told you so. And BTW, i would much rather stick something else in a pipe and smoke it.
PS. Start the theatre build thread, you'll have a much easier time of it there, than here. Just don't mention you bought the world's first and only perfect speaker
post #245 of 406
Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

Here's another point that nobody has commented on. How does a speaker with a 5" cone play at reference level with "virtually no cone movement?"
That seems physically impossible to me.

All depends on what they have to reproduce. Let's say this little 5.25" woofer is fed a 350Hz test tone. Then the numbers are at least theoretically possible.

At 80Hz? Heck no, not even at full 7mm peak to peak do they have a chance of reference level.

At 100Hz it seems they should be asked to reproduce in a fully set up system? Nope, not even close. 86.8dB at full excursion at the 4M listening position.

Men lie, women lie. Numbers don't. biggrin.gif
post #246 of 406
If the frequency response of the S-15 is 120hz to 22khz. What exactly is he measuring at 25hz?
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post #247 of 406
Can someone explain this to me? Steinway Lyngdorf Fully Digital Amplifier-1.pdf 53k .pdf file

Much is made of the S/L's "completely end-to-end digital system" by the OP, GECKO, and Steinway's own brochures but I don't understand how this can be unless the "mains" are themselves active/digital. They are not. This demodulation filter at the output stage converts the digital signal to analogue. They even call it a "power dac."

I get that the amp is Class D. I get they are saying they've left the DAC last in line at the output stage. Still, it is being converted to analogue before reaching the speakers so it's not really an A-Z fully digital design, no? Not that I think DAC chain placement matters all that much in the real world but this sounds like yet another claim unsupported by the facts. Am I wrong?

Chris
post #248 of 406
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hudda View Post

Can someone explain this to me? Steinway Lyngdorf Fully Digital Amplifier-1.pdf 53k .pdf file
Much is made of the S/L's "completely end-to-end digital system" by the OP, GECKO, and Steinway's own brochures but I don't understand how this can be
It can't. At some point in the signal chain conversion must be made back to analog. Moving coil loudspeakers cannot be driven with a digital signal.
post #249 of 406
Did anyone else miss that this system can't do full reference? I mean what happens under 25hz? He is missing 3 octaves!
post #250 of 406
Quote:
Originally Posted by madboynutter View Post

450

I would like to arm wrestle you... I'm left handed though...

Still reading through this thread, thank you AVS radio for the suggestion...
post #251 of 406
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

It can't. At some point in the signal chain conversion must be made back to analog. Moving coil loudspeakers cannot be driven with a digital signal.

Thanks for the confirmation Bill. The more one reads S/L's marketing drivel the more one thinks "What the F%&* are they talking about?!" Yeah, this is a Completely New Approach. rolleyes.gif

Chris
post #252 of 406
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

If the frequency response of the S-15 is 120hz to 22khz. What exactly is he measuring at 25hz?

The meter pegged (at least 116dB in that shot, I really don't know why he didn't just turn the knob to 120dB) while reading the subwoofer (S210 "boundary woofer", as if corner-placement of a subwoofer is unique from the minds of S/L rolleyes.gif) with a 25Hz tone.

The S15 (with 5.25" woofer) was claimed to hit 110dB at 4M with a full range signal and only ~2mm of movement.
post #253 of 406
Quote:
Originally Posted by madboynutter View Post

Digging into my personal details and attacking the honesty and integrity of both me and my family is wholly unacceptable and intolerable behaviour, and is where I regrettably am forced to draw the line. mad.gif
Many individuals with biased agendas have been frantically and repeatedly attacking me, including multple attempts at assassination of my character, which you have done in your frantic desperation to discredit my opinion so you can protect whatever biased agenda you have, whether it is affiliation or personal relationship with a manufacturer, or owner of one of the audio systems that received a low score in my review.
However, now you have crossed the line by venturing into what is by definition defamation of character; and in doing so steeped to the lowest of the low with regards to behaviour that is unlikely to be seen even in the basest of public Internet forums.
You should go and look up KELSEY INDUSTRIES PLC, which was my family's business until I recently rebranded the property development arm after my father recently passed away from small cell liver cancer, wherein there were reasons why I had to set up a new Limited company. As such, the "claims of 100 years family experience" are absolutely TRUE; and you should note that I have never stated that my company SCEPTRE AUDIO VISUAL LTD has 20 year's A/V experience; I have repeatedly stated that I have 20 year's A/V experience, which is also absolutely TRUE.

I have no interest in partaking in the on-going attempted assassination and defamation of my character, as well as that of me and my family’s integrity, and hence bid you all farewell.

Good grief get over yourself. Nice paraphrasing of what I said but it still doesn't amount to defamation. I'm just saying you're an enthusastic salesman taking liberties with the language as most sales people do...you probably can't help yourself (like at first saying you proved the spl thing but then it turns out it was another salesman offering it up, or you being a "professional" or "unbiased").

By the way, how do you measure distortion on that Radio Shack meter? Gecko sells equipment of this level and this is their test instrument? Yikes!

Didn't you already promise not to come back? Or is this train wreck of a "professional, unbiased" review irresistable to you, too? smile.gif
post #254 of 406
I just want to know how this system can play louder at 4M than it can at 1 meter, per SL themselves! It reminds me of a Nissan dealer back when trying to sell me their new 300ZXTT and claimed it could go to 90MPH in first gear! I said the Nissan says it can do that in third gear and he told me to trust him! I said no problem, you drive and show me, we never went for that ride. Guess what, I eventually owned that car with 450HP and sure enough, 90 MPH was the limit of their 3rd gear. That salesman was just a little over zealous but the car was still great. I will trust SL specs over anyone selling it. Unless that room is magical I don't see it, SL specs their sub in a corner(in room) and not sure about the speaker but I will assume they test their gear at the same locations?
post #255 of 406
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aknot5 View Post

The meter pegged (at least 116dB in that shot, I really don't know why he didn't just turn the knob to 120dB) while reading the subwoofer (S210 "boundary woofer", as if corner-placement of a subwoofer is unique from the minds of S/L rolleyes.gif) with a 25Hz tone.
The S15 (with 5.25" woofer) was claimed to hit 110dB at 4M with a full range signal and only ~2mm of movement.

What I am getting at, if the lower range of the S-15 is 120hz like SL specs list, then the S-15 is not the speaker that is pegging the meter at 116db with a 25hz test tone being played. Also in the picture, the screen lists an 80hz test tone.
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post #256 of 406
Well, the OP stated that the 25hz tone was the dual 10 inch sub which is spec'd out at 117 dBs max in a corner at 1 meter. Of course who knows what frequency that is but the stated response is 25-500hz which is more like a simulation in winisd than actual measurements in room, outside, etc..
post #257 of 406
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

What I am getting at, if the lower range of the S-15 is 120hz like SL specs list, then the S-15 is not the speaker that is pegging the meter at 116db with a 25hz test tone being played. Also in the picture, the screen lists an 80hz test tone.

Right, the S210 (subwoofer) is what was tested at 25Hz. This is what I was referencing here:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aknot5 View Post

OK, so we have a claim of this "boundary woofer" being capable of 121dB at 4M at 25Hz (assuming a conservative 116dB reading of that meter and 5dB correction factor). THD? Who knows, but let's ignore that.

Let's take two 10" drivers, give them say... 30mm xmax each (60mm peak to peak- extremely doubtful, but let's go with it) and see what physics says about the air they move at 25Hz.

110.6dB @ 1M

That's ~99dB at 4M.

The claim thus, is that this room is providing 22dB of support at 25Hz. rolleyes.gif

The picture showing 80Hz is when the S15 speaker was tested, but this 110dB at 4M number was said to have been a "full signal" tone.
post #258 of 406
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aknot5 View Post

Right, the S210 (subwoofer) is what was tested at 25Hz. This is what I was referencing here:
The picture showing 80Hz is when the S15 speaker was tested, but this 110dB at 4M number was said to have been a "full signal" tone.

80hz to a speaker with a lower end listing of 120hz still does not make sense. I am at a loss on what he is showing us.
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post #259 of 406
Lets see, a paradigm sub 2 can hit 110 dBs at 25hz outside at 2 meters. So at 1 meter it can hit 116 dBs and then placed in a corner inside should get you 6-9 dBs more or 122-125 dBs at 1 meter. 4 meters away it should be 6-12 dBs less or 119 dBs at 25 hz at best! Now we are saying that these two 10's can out perform 6 high excursion 10's? Impossible! OP, this is why we have questions because it just does not make sense at all. There is something wrong going on for sure.
post #260 of 406
Here they are at Overture Audio Video... $54,600 worth of Reference Level goodness. eek.gifrolleyes.gif

OVERTURE
Ultimate Home Electronics
Located in Wilmington and Lewes, Delaware
183

From Overture website:
Quote:

Overview
The S - Series delivers stunning, true-to-life sound from a surprisingly compact size.
Speaker systems from: $54,600.00

S - Series

The S - Series delivers stunning, true-to-life sound from a surprisingly compact size – making it an exceptional solution for compact residences, prestigious hospitality and private yacht areas where space is a premium but exceptional experiences are not to be compromised.

Faithfully upholding tenets of distinguished and refined craftsmanship, the S - Series combines stunning aesthetics and performance into one package.

A key feature of the S-15 speaker is the innovative patent-pending AER (Ambience Enhancing Radiation) dipole tweeter design. The result is a dispersion of the highest frequencies which produces a spacious dipole effect from a speaker that can be placed up against or parallel to a back wall. The S – Series also features Fully Digital Amplification, Boundary Woofers, and RoomPerfect™ room adaptation technology.

Soul-stirring acoustic performance is channelled from compact speakers, which can be installed in stereo and surround sound configurations with a variety of in-room and on-wall placement options. Because of the full system approach all S - Series speakers can be combined with any other Steinway Lyngdorf speaker.

http://www.overtureavonline.com/shop/speakers/surround-speaker-packages/steinway-lyngdorf/steinway-lyngdorf-s-series

Overture Audio Video has them set up in a demo room. They are only about 2 hours away, just across the PA/DE border. I think I'll go take another listen one day next week. I don't know if they'll let me take measurements. They "strongly suggested" I make an appointment for an audition. When I call back to make the appointment, I'll ask about measurements. Anybody want to go along?

Craig

PS. Does "an exceptional solution for compact residences, prestigious hospitality and private yacht areas where space is a premium" sound like a system capable of full Reference Level in virtually any sized room??? eek.gifeek.gifeek.gif
Edited by craig john - 7/12/12 at 4:13pm
post #261 of 406
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Here they are at Overture Audio Video... $54,600 worth of Reference Level goodness. eek.gifrolleyes.gif
OVERTURE
Ultimate Home Electronics
Located in Wilmington and Lewes, Delaware
183
From Overture website:
Quote:
Overview
The S - Series delivers stunning, true-to-life sound from a surprisingly compact size.
Speaker systems from: $54,600.00
S - Series
The S - Series delivers stunning, true-to-life sound from a surprisingly compact size – making it an exceptional solution for compact residences, prestigious hospitality and private yacht areas where space is a premium but exceptional experiences are not to be compromised.
Faithfully upholding tenets of distinguished and refined craftsmanship, the S - Series combines stunning aesthetics and performance into one package.
A key feature of the S-15 speaker is the innovative patent-pending AER (Ambience Enhancing Radiation) dipole tweeter design. The result is a dispersion of the highest frequencies which produces a spacious dipole effect from a speaker that can be placed up against or parallel to a back wall. The S – Series also features Fully Digital Amplification, Boundary Woofers, and RoomPerfect™ room adaptation technology.
Soul-stirring acoustic performance is channelled from compact speakers, which can be installed in stereo and surround sound configurations with a variety of in-room and on-wall placement options. Because of the full system approach all S - Series speakers can be combined with any other Steinway Lyngdorf speaker.
http://www.overtureavonline.com/shop/speakers/surround-speaker-packages/steinway-lyngdorf/steinway-lyngdorf-s-series
Overture Audio Video has them set up in a demo room. They are only about 2 hours away, just across the PA/DE border. I think I'll go take another listen one day next week. I don't know if they'll let me take measurements. They "strongly suggested" I make an appointment for an audition. When I call back to make the appointment, I'll ask about measurements. Anybody want to go along?
Craig
PS. Does "an exceptional solution for compact residences, prestigious hospitality and private yacht areas where space is a premium" sound like a system capable of full Reference Level in virtually any sized room??? eek.gifeek.gifeek.gif

I'd go but 3000 miles is a bit far for an audition for stuff I wouldn't buy.

I think some very rich people might consider a compact residence something like the small house where I live, and I've seen some pretty large yachts....
post #262 of 406
I'm pretty sure that's the system mmiles and I heard at Cedia in 2010. They sounded good but when they told us the price we were like "they're not that good..." I remember enjoying the Adams much more for 2 channel. They were setup as a multichannel config in a dedicated room if i recall.
post #263 of 406
I heard it at CEDIA, 2010 and at AXPONA NY last year. It sounded good, but not so good that I ever asked about the price. If I had known the price, I would have just laughed.

Craig
post #264 of 406
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Here they are at Overture Audio Video... $54,600 worth of Reference Level goodness. eek.gifrolleyes.gif
OVERTURE
Ultimate Home Electronics
Located in Wilmington and Lewes, Delaware
183
From Overture website:
Quote:
Overview
The S - Series delivers stunning, true-to-life sound from a surprisingly compact size.
Speaker systems from: $54,600.00
S - Series
The S - Series delivers stunning, true-to-life sound from a surprisingly compact size – making it an exceptional solution for compact residences, prestigious hospitality and private yacht areas where space is a premium but exceptional experiences are not to be compromised.
Faithfully upholding tenets of distinguished and refined craftsmanship, the S - Series combines stunning aesthetics and performance into one package.
A key feature of the S-15 speaker is the innovative patent-pending AER (Ambience Enhancing Radiation) dipole tweeter design. The result is a dispersion of the highest frequencies which produces a spacious dipole effect from a speaker that can be placed up against or parallel to a back wall. The S – Series also features Fully Digital Amplification, Boundary Woofers, and RoomPerfect™ room adaptation technology.
Soul-stirring acoustic performance is channelled from compact speakers, which can be installed in stereo and surround sound configurations with a variety of in-room and on-wall placement options. Because of the full system approach all S - Series speakers can be combined with any other Steinway Lyngdorf speaker.
http://www.overtureavonline.com/shop/speakers/surround-speaker-packages/steinway-lyngdorf/steinway-lyngdorf-s-series
Overture Audio Video has them set up in a demo room. They are only about 2 hours away, just across the PA/DE border. I think I'll go take another listen one day next week. I don't know if they'll let me take measurements. They "strongly suggested" I make an appointment for an audition. When I call back to make the appointment, I'll ask about measurements. Anybody want to go along?
Craig
PS. Does "an exceptional solution for compact residences, prestigious hospitality and private yacht areas where space is a premium" sound like a system capable of full Reference Level in virtually any sized room??? eek.gifeek.gifeek.gif

Just make sure you listen to the SL's when you are watching a $30k 4k projector.... eek.gif
post #265 of 406
The OP (as promised) checked out a couple of days ago but the dead horse beating continues. You guys made your points. Time to move on, don't you think?

BTW, Steinway-Lyngdorf like several other "high end" audio companies could give a shite about the opinions of annonomous internet detractors. They are like that British yacht builder from the 1970's whose marketing slogan was "comfortably beyond the grasp of the common man". smile.gif
post #266 of 406
Common RMK! When the guys at the GTG said the JTR's were not their cup of tea you debated as well. The OP made some strong opinions about a speaker or speakers so why can't owners debate his opinion? Newbies reading this might think that Triads suck and the SL system can play reference in any room. We are using common sense and physics, really math, to show why we disagree. The attacks or back and forth is never good but it happens to us all. BTW, I really did not think he was gone for good. I mean if I showed all of you that my system was awesome because of some photo I took you guys would let me have it! I have shown much more than that and still get crap. I know members that like the plats better than catalysts and people who lindens catalysts better than the triple 12's, so therefore these little SL's must be better than a JTR system at reference! I have no problems with someone stating they like a speaker's sound better than another but reference levels is a whole new ball game and I live at this game. I know what it takes to get there and most audiophile speakers don't. I mean if that sub can do 121 dBs at 4 meters it would eat a submersive for breakfast! This does not pass the smell test. The OP left with look, I proved you all wrong, and said some not nice things. I guess he deserves a break. I just want to know what that room is made of because we all should have one!
post #267 of 406
Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

They are like that British yacht builder from the 1970's whose marketing slogan was "comfortably beyond the grasp of the common man". smile.gif
In this case a more appropriate slogan would be "Comfortably beyond the realm of common sense". biggrin.gif
post #268 of 406
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Common RMK! When the guys at the GTG said the JTR's were not their cup of tea you debated as well. The OP made some strong opinions about a speaker or speakers so why can't owners debate his opinion? Newbies reading this might think that Triads suck and the SL system can play reference in any room. We are using common sense and physics, really math, to show why we disagree. The attacks or back and forth is never good but it happens to us all. BTW, I really did not think he was gone for good. I mean if I showed all of you that my system was awesome because of some photo I took you guys would let me have it! I have shown much more than that and still get crap. I know members that like the plats better than catalysts and people who lindens catalysts better than the triple 12's, so therefore these little SL's must be better than a JTR system at reference! I have no problems with someone stating they like a speaker's sound better than another but reference levels is a whole new ball game and I live at this game. I know what it takes to get there and most audiophile speakers don't. I mean if that sub can do 121 dBs at 4 meters it would eat a submersive for breakfast! This does not pass the smell test. The OP left with look, I proved you all wrong, and said some not nice things. I guess he deserves a break. I just want to know what that room is made of because we all should have one!

I don't see those situations as anagalous but whatever ...rolleyes.gif I don't care what people think about how my speakers sound and certainly don't take it personal. I do prefer that comments are respectful (ok, with maybe a bit of sarcasm thrown in wink.gif). I have no problem with subjective reviews but the hyperbole the OP exhibited was unnecessary (as was the case in your GTG analogy) and I hope THAT is his take away from this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

In this case a more appropriate slogan would be "Comfortably beyond the realm of common sense". biggrin.gif

Good one professor ... smile.gif
post #269 of 406
No one really cares or is able to argue with subjective preferences he may have.

Most of the hyperbole, though unnecessary, is pretty meaningless.

But when you start making claims using numbers that don't jive with reality, it's no surprise he got nervous and took off.
post #270 of 406
Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

I don't see those situations as anagalous but whatever ...rolleyes.gif I don't care what people think about how my speakers sound and certainly don't take it personal. I do prefer that comments are respectful (ok, with maybe a bit of sarcasm thrown in wink.gif). I have no problem with subjective reviews but the hyperbole the OP exhibited was unnecessary (as was the case in your GTG analogy) and I hope THAT is his take away from this.

If people don't like the sound of my speakers, that's fine. But this guy portrayed himself as some kind of expert, and then wrote a review that was highly critical of them, and (originally) contained some very harsh language. Now, it turns out that the speakers he reviewed were likely heavily modified, with external crossovers, and he didn't reveal that in his review. Also, he never responded to any of my questions about the frequency range or measurements that would be involved in the "honkiness" he described, and which he attributed to the dispersion lens/horn. The dispersion lens isn't even in play in the honkiness range, yet he never answered any of my questions about that. My only motivation here is to expose him for who he really is, and discredit his review so that anyone else looking for information about the Triad Platinums knows to disregard this review.

In addition, the hyperbole you speak of further discredits his review. And frankly, I don't believe his measurements. I intend to verify for myself whether or not this system can actually do what he says it can. I hope you don't think that is beating a dead horse.

BTW, Rob, if you do a Google search for "Steinway Lyngdorf Triad Platinum", this thread is the first hit to come up.

Craig
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