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Projectors at CEDIA Expo 2012 - Page 6

post #151 of 384
Quote:
Originally Posted by Owen View Post

As far as I am concerned the JVC's have only passable contrast ratio, other digital projectors are simply unacceptable and not suitable for movies. The weaknesses that seem to bother some are non issues to me as they dont affect 2D movie performance.
There is only one aspect of performance I want JVC to improve and thats native contrast ratio, it needs to be much, much better. It seems that has not been addressed in the new models so JVC can keep them, I'm not interested.
JVC's current contrast ratio is vastly superior to what I see in the local cinema. No comparison (#1 reason I don't go to the cinema). I remember back in the day (2000) when my first first projector (Sanyo) had a contrast ratio of 100! But yes - I would like complete fade-to-black capability some day (w/ no hand puppets).
post #152 of 384
Quote:
Originally Posted by xb1032 View Post

This seems very true. Once other manufacturer's catch up (which is happening very slowly) then JVC will have been dethroned. Quite frankly I'll be glad when that day comes so that I don't feel tied down to one choice (I'm not spending that $2k-$5k extra for a tiny amount of added contrast which comes at a loss of light output).
It seems that we've hit a point with native contrast that manufacturer's either no longer care about improvements or we've hit a technological brick wall and a new technology will be required for improvements in this area.

If JVC employed something like Sony's DI it would jump way ahead of the competition with respect to on/off CR with one simple change. Many of us don't mind a DI and for us this could be a game changer, especially if JVC could fix its 3D at the same time. All of this is possible, it just needs a little resolve on JVC's part.
post #153 of 384
Funny....when the RS1 first came out there were some that rightly criticized it for its colors and lack of a way internally to get them right without external processing, bright corners and other issues...calling it a one trick pony. Now after all the advances and eShift and everything else they've done since, the solid points above about what they still have not addressed since 3D appeared....has them back to being called a one trick pony.
post #154 of 384
The funny thing is that the X7 had MUCH better 3D then the x70 (until the bulb got to around 400 hours) both were 120hz panels. Not sure the higher hz really makes much difference in 3D. Maybe less flicker.

The Sony VW90 was 240hz and had garbage 3D, and the X7 had 3D that was better then my Panasonic plasma and the best 3D that Id seen at the time. Then my X7 exploded, so they gave me an x70........Same problems with the lamp, better 2D image then the X7, but MUCH worse 3D. Not sure what happened to make the 3D so **** on the X70, but if they just went "backwards" and can attain the quality of the X7 for 3D on the new models, then I think people will be satisfied.

If it aint broke, then don't fix it. The 3D was great on the X7 but the lamp issues ended up ruining the 3D experience at around the 400 hour mark. The x70 on the other hand had crap 3D from the very start....

Hopefully JVC learned from there mistakes. So it's very possible that the 3D will be in fact better then the previous model, even using 120hz refresh.

I think I'll wait for someone else to test this year.........
post #155 of 384
If 3d on the X7 was anything like my RS40, it was FAR from great. I actually saw NO difference in ghosting and 3d in general between my RS40 and RS45.......they both sucked to be blunt.

One other thing that makes JVC projectors borderline defective as far as 3d is the fact that ghosting gets worse as the lamp ages. Ghosting got noticeably worse on my 40 around the 300-400 hour mark. Cant say on my 45 since I quit watching 3d on it before then and the bulb has since been changed when I sent it in for service.
Edited by Toe - 9/7/12 at 12:15pm
post #156 of 384
Re DI, perhaps at some point JVC will kill two birds with one stone by switching to LED and/or laser, and saving face by giving light source modulation a new fancy name.

They'll have a bit of a technical leg to stand on, as there wouldn't be an actual iris that's dynamically modulated.
post #157 of 384
Any new/improved native 2.35 projectors there or on the horizon?
post #158 of 384
Here is my CEDIA update, posted in the official thread, going for a beer!

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1427795/cedia-2012-live-updates-from-avs-members/60
post #159 of 384
Quote:
Originally Posted by danieledmunds View Post

Here is my CEDIA update, posted in the official thread, going for a beer!

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1427795/cedia-2012-live-updates-from-avs-members/60

thanks very much for the feedback on the JVC's. It sounds like the 3D wasn't too impressive. Flickering is the #1 issue I have (more so than crosstalk) on the first and second gen models. I was hoping to see this diminish, but it might not be possible if the panels are still the same speed.

It's remarkable how rock solid the image is in 3D mode on the 3D DLP projectors in comparison. I can watch 3D for hours on the DLP's without any eye strain. I did Avengers 3D and Wrath of the Titan's back to back like I was watching 2D.
post #160 of 384
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

thanks very much for the feedback on the JVC's. It sounds like the 3D wasn't too impressive. Flickering is the #1 issue I have (more so than crosstalk) on the first and second gen models. I was hoping to see this diminish, but it might not be possible if the panels are still the same speed.
It's remarkable how rock solid the image is in 3D mode on the 3D DLP projectors in comparison. I can watch 3D for hours on the DLP's without any eye strain. I did Avengers 3D and Wrath of the Titan's back to back like I was watching 2D.

Well hopefully there will be an improvement in 3D whether it be more brightness, less crosstalk, less flickering or all of them. Lets keep in mind that the projectors that were shown at CEDIA are prototypes and it could be possible the 3D will be even better when the final products are available in Nov/Dec. Personally I don't care a whole lot for 3D and I'm sure the RS56/X75 (the one I'm setting my sights on) will produce a fine 3D picture for casual viewing. 90% of my viewing will be 2D Blu-ray, 5% gaming, and 5% 3D.
post #161 of 384
Perhaps JVC need those panels to be slow to achieve the high native CR, maybe they need faster panels that can be run slower as well, slow(120Hz) for material requiring high CR and fast(720hz) with less CR for 3D and sport/action..........unfortunately not exciting at all this year JVC........................bring a modulateable, stackable laser light engine, with perfect fade to black, panels that can run at 720hz(for fast action/3D) as well as at 120hz(for high CR) excellent optics, 1080p with e-shift and true 4k models........and we all, well almost all, will be lining up....next year? smile.gif
post #162 of 384
Quote:
Originally Posted by SED <--- Rules View Post

Well hopefully there will be an improvement in 3D whether it be more brightness, less crosstalk, less flickering or all of them. Lets keep in mind that the projectors that were shown at CEDIA are prototypes and it could be possible the 3D will be even better when the final products are available in Nov/Dec. Personally I don't care a whole lot for 3D and I'm sure the RS56/X75 (the one I'm setting my sights on) will produce a fine 3D picture for casual viewing. 90% of my viewing will be 2D Blu-ray, 5% gaming, and 5% 3D.

possibly, although it would be a first since we heard the same thing in 2010 and 2011. The crosstalk controls that didn't do anything caused quite a stir once the projectors hit the streets in November 2011.

The RS55 is a fantastic 2D projector, I have no doubt the RS56 will be even better for 2D, especially if they fix the lamp issue this time around.

I like 3D and already have my solution for the time being. It just requires running 2 different projectors. cool.gif
post #163 of 384
Quote:
Originally Posted by Highjinx View Post

Perhaps JVC need those panels to be slow to achieve the high native CR, maybe they need faster panels that can be run slower as well, slow(120Hz) for material requiring high CR and fast(720hz) with less CR for 3D and sport/action..........unfortunately not exciting at all this year JVC........................bring a modulateable, stackable laser light engine, with perfect fade to black, panels that can run at 720hz(for fast action/3D) as well as at 120hz(for high CR) excellent optics, 1080p with e-shift and true 4k models........and we all, well almost all, will be lining up....next year? smile.gif

Ive decided im going to wait another year. Looks like my HD 350 will have to keep going smile.gif
post #164 of 384
Quote:
Originally Posted by dvcdude View Post

The engineer I spoke with says 4000 hours and 15% loss of lumens at 2000 hours.

Wait, has ANY PJ/lamp performed this good after 2000hrs? I mean, you lose 15% within the first 100 hrs (or so) with most PJ lamps.

confused.gif
post #165 of 384
Quote:
Originally Posted by Franin View Post

Ive decided im going to wait another year. Looks like my HD 350 will have to keep going smile.gif

Good move Franin, doubt JVC will still be selling the same basic unit they have been for the last couple of years, in 2014 as well, they will need to inject some true excitement, 4K /Red /Laser, need we say more, nudge, nudge, wink, wink, JVC/Sony et al will be prepairing their excitement machines as well........smile.gif
post #166 of 384
Quote:
Originally Posted by Franin View Post

Ive decided im going to wait another year. Looks like my HD 350 will have to keep going smile.gif

Good move. 3d wont have any significant improvements and 2d will be a slight upgrade at best from last year.
post #167 of 384
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe View Post

Good move. 3d wont have any significant improvements and 2d will be a slight upgrade at best from last year.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Highjinx View Post

Good move Franin, doubt JVC will still be selling the same basic unit they have been for the last couple of years, in 2014 as well, they will need to inject some true excitement, 4K /Red /Laser, need we say more, nudge, nudge, wink, wink, JVC/Sony et al will be prepairing their excitement machines as well........smile.gif

It will give me time to save a bit more. I refuse to pay 25k for a projector, they tend to improve every two years.
post #168 of 384
Digital Projection had nice looking looking 2.35 native aspect machine. Around $35K MSRP.

The new JVC eshift looked really good to me in 2D and noticeably better than last year's models. The algs used by JVC to flash the two HD frames from the scaled 4HD frame are much much more sophisticated than those least year which mainly operated in the high frequency domain. The new algs process much much wider bandwidth and generate a much better approximation of what one would see with a true 4HD panel. Also there is a big bump up this year in the ANSI contrast, a traditional weakness of Dila panels compared to DLP. JVC closed the gap and the performance improvement was noticeable. And from experimental results shared with me, the decay in lamp intensity over time useage is a gentle slope looking like about a 15% diminishment orver say .1000 hours. A breakthrough in lamp projectors.
If I owned a last year's eshift machine, I would roll it in a flash.

Bottom line. Big 2d improvement from JVC this year. Wanna bet the sophisticated consumer reviewers here will reach the same conclusion several months from now when the new models are released?
Edited by AV Science Sales 4 - 9/9/12 at 2:21pm
post #169 of 384
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 4 View Post

Digital Projection had nice looking looking 2.35 native aspect machine. Around $35K MSRP.
The new JVC eshift looked really good to me in 2D and noticeably better than last year's models. The lags used by JVC to flash the two Hd frames from the scaled 4HD frame are much much more sophisticated than those least year which mainly operated in the high refrequency domain. The new lags process much much wider bandwidth and generate a much better approximation of what one would see with a 4HD panel. Also there isa big bump up this year in the ANSI contrast, a traditional weakness of Dila panels compared to DLP. JVC closed the gap and the performance improvement was noticeable.
If I owned a last year's eshift machine, I would roll it in a flash.
Bottom line. Big 2d improvement from JVC this year. Wanna bet the sophisticated consumer reviewers here will reach the same conclusion several months from now when the new models are released?[/qIuote]

In recent years the models shown at these events were not the final production units. Did JVC state the same this year? Are there going to be refinements before launch?
post #170 of 384
Sounds good Mark. If what your saying is true then I will be a happy camper indeed since I am considering getting one of the models. 2D is always the main priority to me and your comments about the improvements are nice to hear. We will see.
post #171 of 384
Mark convinced me so I put my RS45 for sale on videogon. Im looking for the unit with eshift.
post #172 of 384
Quote:
Originally Posted by kutlow View Post

Mark convinced me so I put my RS45 for sale on videogon. Im looking for the unit with eshift.

Not me. My 45 stays put. Give me some changes I care about like less lag, significantly less ghosting and as close to zero flicker as possible and I am in. Eshift I could not care less about at my seating distance.
post #173 of 384
Funny how every year we hear that the ANSI contrast has 'greatly improved' over the previous year, yet the JVCs are still among the lowest on this score. I know measuring ANSI is a very variable feast, but if done by the same person in the same room, then the results are at least comparable. I was also surprised to see the comments about how E-shift can reduce the ANSI contrast, which I hadn't read about but figures of 300 down to 120 (off verses on) are very poor IMHO. That's hardly any better than my old HD350(RS10) measured in a near white room for comparison.

I know you guys seem to get a much better deal than we do in the UK with your pre order deals, but apart from upgrading to an Eshift model from an RS45 I can't see many of you bothering otherwise, the improvements don't seem to be significant enough from what I've read. I also read in another thread that even the new E-shift has some visible 'sheen' according to one poster that has seen the new models, this was someone who had the previous model and saw it on that, so I guess they have some real world experience of it.

With the greatest respect to Mark, I think you'd all be much better off waiting to actually, you know, see one for yourselves before bouncing around with excitement about buying the new model, but it seems to happen every year regardless.
Edited by Kelvin1965S - 9/8/12 at 2:47am
post #174 of 384
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 4 View Post

Digital Projection had nice looking looking 2.35 native aspect machine. Around $35K MSRP.
The new JVC eshift looked really good to me in 2D and noticeably better than last year's models. The lags used by JVC to flash the two Hd frames from the scaled 4HD frame are much much more sophisticated than those least year which mainly operated in the high refrequency domain. The new lags process much much wider bandwidth and generate a much better approximation of what one would see with a 4HD panel. Also there isa big bump up this year in the ANSI contrast, a traditional weakness of Dila panels compared to DLP. JVC closed the gap and the performance improvement was noticeable.
If I owned a last year's eshift machine, I would roll it in a flash.
Bottom line. Big 2d improvement from JVC this year. Wanna bet the sophisticated consumer reviewers here will reach the same conclusion several months from now when the new models are released?

The device in the light path that does the wobulation for "EShift" degrades ANSI contrast so JVC have simply managed to reclaiming some of the ANSI contrast lost when EShift was introduced. ANSI would no doubt be better again if EShift was removed completely.
I can understand why JVC feel the need to do sudo 4k but its a compromise solution that does not suit everyone. I would prefer a genuine 4k projector with 4k input or the best no compromise 2k projector possible.

I am fascinated by the concern over 3D performance, I find 3D a contrived and artificial "effect" that degrades my viewing experience and I want nothing at all to do with it or the titles that use it, I guess my age is showing. biggrin.gif
post #175 of 384
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe View Post

Not me. My 45 stays put. Give me some changes I care about like less lag, significantly less ghosting and as close to zero flicker as possible and I am in. Eshift I could not care less about at my seating distance.

What's your seating distance? (& viewing angle)
post #176 of 384
Hmm, not sure about any great increases in ANSI with the latest JVCs. Great depth and perhaps the ANSI numbers are higher but they still look like DILA projectors, i.e. not much in the way of 'pop'. I haven't seen the previous gen eshift but was pretty impressed with the technology, it looked noticeably sharper to me when they switched it on.
post #177 of 384
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Ballentine View Post

What's your seating distance? (& viewing angle)

1.8 sw for 1.78. I am using a CIH screen which bumps that up to about 1.3sw for 2.35 which would take more advantage of eshift I bet, but I still doubt it would be a major difference at that seating distance from what I have read. I will find out next year when JVC releases their 120hz eshift 3 machines since I can view them at Cedia here in Denver. tongue.gif
post #178 of 384
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelvin1965S View Post

Funny how every year we hear that the ANSI contrast has 'greatly improved' over the previous year, yet the JVCs are still among the lowest on this score. I know measuring ANSI is a very variable feast, but if done by the same person in the same room, then the results are at least comparable. I was also surprised to see the comments about how E-shift can reduce the ANSI contrast, which I hadn't read about but figures of 300 down to 120 (off verses on) are very poor IMHO. That's hardly any better than my old HD350(RS10) measured in a near white room for comparison.
I know you guys seem to get a much better deal than we do in the UK with your pre order deals, but apart from upgrading to an Eshift model from an RS45 I can't see many of you bothering otherwise, the improvements don't seem to be significant enough from what I've read. I also read in another thread that even the new E-shift has some visible 'sheen' according to one poster that has seen the new models, this was someone who had the previous model and saw it on that, so I guess they have some real world experience of it.
With the greatest respect to Mark, I think you'd all be much better off waiting to actually, you know, see one for yourselves before bouncing around with excitement about buying the new model, but it seems to happen every year regardless.

I mentioned in the other thread how we hear about this great ANSI increase every year and it never amounts to squat. SOWK made the brilliant (I should have thought about this) observation that the rooms they demo some of these JVC projectors in are commonly COMPLETELY, and I mean COMPLETELY black holes. People are not seeing a projector which has increased ANSI to any significant degree most likely, but rather they are finally seeing the FULL potential (or MUCH closer to it anyway) of the ANSI that is there in a perfect room that is not practical for the VAST majority of us due to many reasons. Put this same new model in your existing room where your nice RS55 now sits and notice no ANSI increase I would bet the farm. They had this same BLACK HOLE type room at Cedia 6 years ago when they first unveiled the RS1 here in Denver and I believe the following 2 years as well. Smart move on JVCs part to showcase their projectors in PERFECT rooms, even though almost nobody has this in reality.
Edited by Toe - 9/8/12 at 9:35am
post #179 of 384
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe View Post

I mentioned in the other thread how we hear about this great ANSI increase every year and it never amounts to squat. SOWK made the brilliant (I should have thought about this) observation that the rooms they demo some of these JVC projectors in are commonly COMPLETELY, and I mean COMPLETELY black holes. People are not seeing a projector which has increased ANSI to any significant degree most likely, but rather they are finally seeing the FULL potential (or MUCH closer to it anyway) of the ANSI that is there in a perfect room that is not practical for the VAST majority of us due to many reasons. Put this same new model in your existing room where your nice RS55 now sits and notice no ANSI increase I would bet the farm. They had this same BLACK HOLE type room at Cedia 6 years ago when they first unveiled the RS1 here in Denver and I believe the following 2 years as well as I believe. Smart move on JVCs part to showcase their projectors in PERFECT rooms, even though almost nobody has this in reality.

I don't see this as a bad thing. If all projectors were demoed in this manor, you would, at the very least be able to compare black level and to some extent color saturation.
post #180 of 384
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Gleave View Post

I don't see this as a bad thing. If all projectors were demoed in this manor, you would, at the very least be able to compare black level and to some extent color saturation.

I completely agree and did not mean to imply otherwise. I wish ALL projectors were demoed like this so you could see the full potential. Not to mention for those who have done as much blacking out of their rooms as possible, you will get the closest idea to how it will look once you get it home. Nothing worse then seeing the projector demos in open light up areas, or mostly white rooms! rolleyes.gif
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