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Need help with Spandex screen size and projector placement among others - Page 3

post #61 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post

The difference between BOC and RS-MaxxMudd LL is extreme.

That's certainly what I'm hoping! I would love to get a significant, immediately noticeable upgrade to my image.
Quote:
curttard, you only have to look at the far greater numbers of those who have actually tried RS-MM LL and the excellent results they post to ascertain the facts you need to make a decision.

Well, numbers won't be a factor for me; this forum gets vastly more traffic than the other, so it's no surprise its formulas would have more users.
Quote:
However unless your willing to downsize using the 5' x 10' Sintra.

I'm not totally opposed to slightly reducing my screensize.

Memphis, sorry for hijacking your thread! I'll keep my stuff in my own thread from now on.
post #62 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by curttard View Post

That's certainly what I'm hoping! I would love to get a significant, immediately noticeable upgrade to my image.

Well rest assured that such a statement isn't made lightly, no without justification. It would be terribly counterproductive to state one thing as fact, then have most everyone come back and say "It just isn't so."
Quote:
Well, numbers won't be a factor for me; this forum gets vastly more traffic than the other, so it's no surprise its formulas would have more users.

The relevance comes from the percentage of satisfied (ie: ecstatic ) Posters to the number who have made the attempt. As numbers rise, if the percentage of unhappy Campers do not, that pretty much does the talkin'. And the talk is, the applications work better than we allude to. While we do encourage people to "Get'ter dun", as well as "Do the best application you can and do it the best you can the 1st time around..." , we just simply let the posted end results speak for themselves.

Every end user is a potential Naysayer if he's dissatisfied. However it's when the history of end user platitudes / disgruntlement is taken into account that many...if not all...usually gain the confidence they need. Hopefully...that's where you'll be soon.
Quote:
I'm not totally opposed to slightly reducing my screensize.

Well I am....and you should be too if it's not needed. biggrin.gif And if the BOC screen you know and love is still taunt, and without surface defects, believe me...together we can make it work far better than you expect it to. Or put even better..."Mo Bedder than you are ever dreamed it could. ..."

That's how we Roll on AVS.

........er, I mean Spray...mostly.tongue.gif

memphisanid, he understands..................cool.gif That's why he's now using Sintra and RS-MaxxMudd. He has seen the difference, and voted with his Spray Gun. I guess you could say that the Thread has changed direction enough that it easily encompasses your situation, questions, and future as well.
post #63 of 79
Thread Starter 
It's no problem at all Curttard! This thread has changed course so the more the merrier as MM was saying. I can say without a doubt that you will not be disappointed with MaxxMudd. I will be spraying my buddies screen in two weekends from now when I have the time, he has seen mine and couldn't not do it for the jump in picture quality.

For what you get and how little it costs it is hard not to do, especially as you say you are very picky about picture quality in another thread. You can't be saying that all of us that have done MaxxMudd and been ecstatic with the results arent picky, are you? wink.gif I'm sorry I am sporadically able to take a minute to respond (work 9/15 tax deadline and fantasy football drafts and boss installation of media room and buddies screen are keeping me swamped) but I will try my best to stay up to date. As MM would say just Get r done!
post #64 of 79
Well, honestly I haven't found a lot of final testimonials on the MaxxMudd LL (which is what I'd be using) other than yours. Most threads lead up to the actual painting and then just die with no post-painting followup. I found one where the guy preferred the Sherwin-Williams and one where a guy was very unimpressed initially but eventually liked it. One guy coming from BOC said the blacks were "marginally better" and "no big complaints" which is hardly a glowing endorsement that's going to get me to spend $80 on paint, $40 on sprayer, $20-30 on misc, possibly $80 on Komatex, plus all the time, versus the $40 screen I built two years ago that I've already got hanging on my wall, you know? wink.gif

Most importantly, I don't think I've yet found any useful comparison pics at all, i.e. with MM-LL side-by-side in the same shot with something I can use as a reference, like BOC, Parkland, the Sherwin-Williams, etc; preferably a simple grey ramp that shows black to white in one shot.

The thing is, I don't know what most of the people giving testimonials are coming from. Is this their first screen? First projector? Are they picky? Have they seen their same projector on something like BOC (in fact I keep meaning to ask you this, too -- I know you have a new projector, did you try it out on the BOC before switching to MM-LL, or is your only experience with the BOC using your old PJ?). Are they calibrating, do they even care about accurate greyscales?

Disclaimer: I've not yet made my way through the entirety of the Official RS-MaxxMudd thread.
Edited by curttard - 8/28/12 at 10:42am
post #65 of 79
curttard,

When people are satisfied, more often than not they do fade away to simply enjoy the fruits of their labors. For many, asking for help was the hardest part. Sticking around to relate experience when one is already happy is a personal decision that has no bearing on the degree of satisfaction that involves. It should be assumed that they are more pleased than displeased.

When people are NOT satisfied they rend to express such, especially if they feel the need to warn others about the mistake (...or errors...) they made.

When people are indecisive, the root cause is almost always the worry that they might fall into the latter category .

So they want positive assurance that won't be the case in their case..Certainly it would be great if there could be definitive long lists of happy / unhappy End users, but any such request to see such a list is dependent on timing...the effort required to dredge up such info.....and chance.

Someone can always ignore the obvious pros in favor of the unknown "cons" ...but usually that means not going forward. That itself can seem safer...if not indeed self depreciating. But people have been playing it safe to avoid disappointment for as longs there have been....well, people.

I suggested you paint over your BOC, so concern about substrate expense is not an issue. I've done it. Many others have as well. It needs to be done right though.

It would seem that concern about simply going to the relatively small expense, time & trouble of even doing that is more the issue than any real concerns about performance gains.

People who have had years of experience are set to make specific suggestions that carry the weight of the probability of success that far outstrips the potential for failure. There is no motive for suggesting that anyone get involved with suggesting a erroneous choice of action. That would be self destructive.

RS-MaxxMudd has been around now for over 7 years, and if it had anything less than a 95% rate of leaving people satisfied, it would have been shouted down long, long ago. a point in fact is that a few have tried to do that, claiming that the use of metallic content (Mica specifically) is not just unnecessary...it's just plain wrong! Strange though how those same people seem to embrace it's use after they actually get down off the Soapbox and actually start trying it's use on full sized screens.

That the majority of those who are happy do not come back (...or stick around...) to give other undecided souls assurance is pretty normal. However some do embrace the mantra that giving back means as much as receiving. Even so, there will never be the numbers present at one time to give someone absolute 100% assurance they will meet with the end results they want...primarily because everyone has different needs and expectations. Some might even have an ulterior motive they themselves do not as of yet realize to want something to be less than expected...or claimed. That too seems self defeating, but sadly...it's happened before...as would be expected when many hundreds get involved in doing any one thing. The very nature of the Internet tends to root out such folks. Sadly for some, they get into doing things with more of a determination to fail than succeed...because to them the probability of failure always seems greater than that of obtaining a successful end.

So in the end, making a decision is really just a individual choice. If one cannot make the choice based on what known facts are available from stated testimonials, nor use facts and supposition together to create justification, lamenting about how they cannot find absolute guarantees of success given by enough others to make them feel confident is something they alone must deal with.

Bluntly put....someone can use all the tests, graphs, subjective examples and conflicting personal & professional opinions one can find out there all tossed together and still might not reason it all out enough to be assured enough to go forward. DIY Screens is not a Slaughterhouse where we feel the need to goad someone through a chute with a Electric Prod. Instead we try to feed them with as many tasty tidbits as possible, hoping the desire to get to the main course is developed, and if any further encouragement is needed then we let those who have come away feeling sated do all the "prodding".

One could make the argument that if anyone / everyone didn't go to the trouble to do comparative examples of "Before / After" or "Side by Side", then they shouldn't bother trying to exclaim that what they have accomplished really amounted to much of anything. Then again, when people have done exactly that, there are always those waiting in the wings to discount or disprove the effort. I've shown many times such examples....they are out there in my Thread listings. White vs Gray vs Metallic Gray. The end results are always the same.

Honestly.....for anyone to even begin to reason that BOC would be comparable to a higher gain, higher contrast surface is something that speaks of a lack of any real understanding of the basic principles behind Screen performance as relates to Room / PJ considerations. At the price point finding out for one's self entails, if price is the determining factor alone (...as seem to be the case here...) then not much can be done to make that go away. DIY'ing still equates to being more "Bang for the Buck" than any comparably priced Mfg Screen option. But end results are commensurate to, and directly tied to the effort and expense applied.

In the end, if your uncertain...and you are loathe to take the advice of others to breast and make your own effort to prove / disprove such advice, it's not reasonable to expect that anyone else go to extremes to try to convince you otherwise. YOU have to chose, not have the choice fostered off on you....or expect it to be proven beyond all doubt. History and experience shows that when such happens, the scales are weighted toward the "Do'er'" to try find something wrong...simply because they are more interested or concerned about not being satisfied than being satisfied. They might not realize that...but it's more often the case than not.

Of course the last statement falls into the same realm of believability as does all the rest of everything else mentioned or alluded to in this Thread. You have to decide to believe or not based on the source and probability that what is conveyed is true or not. So....were do you go from here?

I might suggest that you yourself go to the effort to do up another Screen...or screens, and do the testing and comparisons you'd like to see provided. You have a BOC Screen waiting. That means you have the chance to provide what you could claim as being definitive results. (...that does take time and money though....)

Why...you might become a Giant in the eyes of fellow DIY'ers.....the stuff DIY legends are made of.

(...I'd pass on that last part iffin; I were you... wink.gif )
post #66 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by curttard View Post

Well, honestly I haven't found a lot of final testimonials on the MaxxMudd LL (which is what I'd be using) other than yours. Most threads lead up to the actual painting and then just die with no post-painting followup.
Most importantly, I don't think I've yet found any useful comparison pics at all, i.e. with MM-LL side-by-side in the same shot with something I can use as a reference, like BOC, Parkland, the Sherwin-Williams, etc; preferably a simple grey ramp that shows black to white in one shot.
/quote]

http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss302/MississippiMaurice/Jared%20Patterson%20Bonus%20Room%20HT%20Retrofit%20w%208700/1aSintraScreenw-SF5Panel.jpg

http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss302/MississippiMaurice/Jared%20Patterson%20Bonus%20Room%20HT%20Retrofit%20w%208700/1aCrowandFatty.jpg

http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss302/MississippiMaurice/Jared%20Patterson%20Bonus%20Room%20HT%20Retrofit%20w%208700/1aHornToadCompleted.jpg

http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss302/MississippiMaurice/Jared%20Patterson%20Bonus%20Room%20HT%20Retrofit%20w%208700/1aDualExamples.jpg

http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss302/MississippiMaurice/Jared%20Patterson%20Bonus%20Room%20HT%20Retrofit%20w%208700/1aAdoringMouseambient.jpg

Read this Thread about a 144' BOC Screen w/ RS-MM LL

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1218944/144-boc-screen-need-paint-help

........and another similar screen with a darker SF coating:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1311600/paint-recommendation-for-144-stretch-blackout-cloth-screen-with-epson-1080ub
post #67 of 79
Yeah, it's definitely the case that satisfied customers don't talk much, so I don't necessarily put too much stock in that.

I did eventually find Threed's thread, and also PM'd him; his is the best case, because he was using the Mits 3800 which is essentially identical to my 4000, and a BOC screen of almost exactly the same size as mine (although his is 16:9). He still wholeheartedly recommends the RS-MM-LL.

Just for the record, a lot of the threads and pics you posted, MM, are for SilverFire, which isn't one I had been considering. And honestly the pictures aren't useful comparisons to me. Most are showing ambient light conditions, which aren't a concern here. Even in Threed's thread, the pics aren't really useful, because they show one screen at a time, and I don't know if the camera was in full Manual mode with the exact same settings for each pic. Without that, they're just not meaningful. For example, his shot of the screen painted just with UPW -- I check that out with the color picker and see that the blacks go down to 1 and the whites to 99. Wow, perfect, right? I assume that was not actually the case, or he would not have felt his eventual RS-MaxxMudd-LL was so superior (in fact his snow shot on the RS-MM actually did not have any whites as bright as the UPW shot, so one would have concluded from that, if taking it at face value, that the UPW had greater contrast -- both had blacks that went down to the minimum). Or in his comparison of his projector on Low and Standard modes -- the Low shot already has whites maxing out the brightness, so the brightest spots on the Standard shot are not actually any brighter, due to limitations of the camera or the exposure used for those pics.

Even on my BOC, I can easily take a picture where the blacks are as black as it is possible to get in a photo, while the whites simultaneously max out in eye-frying glory in the photo. Yet the actual picture I see on my screen is fairly dim (relatively speaking; somewhere around 5 ftL) while simultaneously having nothing like "inky" blacks.

The only kind of photo that could really tell me anything, I think, is one of either a full greyscale ramp, or even just a black and white checkerboard, with the exposure set that neither the blacks nor whites are clipping in the photo. If that's not possible due to limited dynamic range of the camera, then two photos, one where the blacks don't clip (but the white may) and one where the whites don't clip (but the black may). And to compare two screen materials/paints, either have the panels side by side in the same photo (best), or make sure each comparison pic is using the exact same manual settings. I suppose the latter is actually best since you would be able to calibrate for each screen material.

Believe me, I'm not trying to be a pain, I'm just doing what I can to give myself as much assurance as possible that *I* will get the amount of improvement *I* want so that the expense and effort is worth it *to me*. I don't expect anyone to go out of their way for me or anyone else, but there's no harm in asking. I took plenty of pics on the HC4000 thread, of requested scenes or modes or whatever. I think most of us like to show off our stuff and help others make as informed decisions as possible, since most of this stuff is non-returnable.

Any and all help is always appreciated, any and all brush-offs are always totally understood wink.gif
post #68 of 79
MM, one more thing I hadn't really been thinking about before but has me a little worried now, do I have to be concerned with viewing cone? Our seating is only about 10ft away at most from a 124" wide screen. Is that going to be enough of an angle to see visible dropoff on the sides of the screen?
post #69 of 79
Absolutely not. To your eyes, there will be no visible drop off all the way to the "Ear on the Screen Wall" position. This has been proven and validated by virtually every end end user who had the curiosity to look sideways across the screen, yet still, those who state that gain cannot come without a lessening of the viewing cone will always insist otherwise. And they are right to the effect that the loss can be measured by an instrument**....but in real world use, the "EYE" cannot do so, so slight is the loss in any case.

Just as we always count on end users to evaluate their performance and relate back, Warts or Roses....I'd be willing to go by your assessment all the way...so you know I'm not worried. wink.gif

I'll venture to say this...if your used to watching 124" wide Scope content from 10', you'se my kinds of enthusiast. Most all the systems I design incorporate 1:1 viewing location to Screen width ratios.

** BTW, those who try to convince people that a screen is hot spotting by posting "negative" (inverted ) screen shots images of a screen are simply twisting facts to their own ends. To this day I have NEVER seen those types EVER reciprocate and post an image of "their" screens under such a test. They know that the degree of visible difference would exist under any such "negative" assessment if the screen involved had any degree of significant gain. (1.2+) The presence of a noticeable difference as seen under a "negative" example does not mean that the screen in question actually appears to be "hot Spotting" in actual "non-negative" use,

Gain does not have to equate to "Hot Spotting" if a balance is reached. And we are all about achieving a balance on here between PJ/Screen/Room....and budget.
post #70 of 79
...and thank you for taking the time to review and consider other opinions.

Yes...as co-author of Silver Fire, I've posted to, and responded to far more SF threads that most anyone else...period. But in my daily travails (spelled right) i focus a great deal on the ambient light experience. Silver Fire's main intended purpose is to allow exceptional viewing in ambient light, and does so by being able to be almost infinitely adjustable in gray shading and gain.

I've done about as many family Room Theaters as I have light controlled Dedicated Theaters...if indeed not more. But RS-MaxxMudd came before Black Flame / Silver Fire, and it's RS-MM that showed everyone that a light hued, silver and pearl infused surface could resist ambient light to at least a better degree than any similarly hued, "non-metallic" surface.

It has all gone steadily uphill from there...and one thing to note...just as the Mfg Screens like the BD like to claim, we KNOW that image quality does not suffer when the lights go down...no sir! It actually improves just like one would expect a White Screen to do. Amazing stuff when one considers how dark SF can go and still appear dynamic and vibrant.

And Hey....if I ever got caught "brushing off" anyone I can't remember when. Taking a stick to 'em....yeah, sumtimes. biggrin.gif
post #71 of 79
Thanks MM. Both paints are still in the running. I'm probably going to go ahead and order the sprayer since I'm 99% sure I'm going to spray *something*, most likely on the BOC itself. I also already have the Liquitex since that's used in both formulas, and there was the Michael's coupon.

For the record, this is the kind of screenshot I find very useful:



It lets me see immediately how both the blacks and whites compare directly between two solutions in the same shot, so I don't have to try to account for different camera exposures or camera clipping or anything like that.
post #72 of 79
Well OK.

We'll let the paint chips fall where they may. biggrin.gif

If you need any extensive pointers on spraying a ultra smooth finish on BOC....just post or PM.

..........and I ain't lyin' cool.gif
post #73 of 79
Thanks, and you can probably expect that post in the not too distant future!
post #74 of 79
OP, so you dropped the spandex screen and went with the MUDD paint?



confused.gif
post #75 of 79
That new RS-MM-LL screen is probably nicely cured by now and itching to be photographed next to some BOC, hint hint. wink.gif
post #76 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by curttard View Post

hint hint. wink.gif
post #77 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by memphisanid View Post

Absolutely, I am going to wait to do any actual comparison shots until the paint has had 3 weeks to cure to get actual shots out of the performance.
.

Paging memphisanid wink.gif
post #78 of 79
Memphis seems to have vanished. I'm going to (finally) post about my own comparison of BOC, RS-MM-LL, and C&S Ultra tonight.

I was hoping for a direct comparison of white spandex to BOC, but I guess that will have to be left to someone else. Maybe I'll buy a yard and do it myself. I suspect there's little difference.
post #79 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by curttard View Post

Memphis seems to have vanished. I'm going to (finally) post about my own comparison of BOC, RS-MM-LL, and C&S Ultra tonight.
I was hoping for a direct comparison of white spandex to BOC, but I guess that will have to be left to someone else. Maybe I'll buy a yard and do it myself. I suspect there's little difference.

It is my guess that memphis is just too darn busy being happy with his new Screen to bother to come back and post about it..

Yeah....I can go that far to say so because the Copied / Pasted PM below pretty much validates that assumption.
Quote:
memphisanid
Aug 20, 2012 at 6:32 am

Morning! Sorry I guess I was a little more intoxicated Saturday night than i thought. cool.gif I could have swore I sent you another msg about how great it already looked!

The surface itself from head on is not pristine flat but very very close. The areas where I had the "runs" I used the sanding sponge very very lightly damped and rubbed them down. It took a good while as it wasn't removing barely any of the paint. I think the heater I had blasting on it helped with that so I was very lucky to lose barely any paint. The sponge did not have more than the slightest white tint to the water when i was washing it out.

Once I put the 3 more coats on (and by coats I mean very very light dusters once I figured out how it should look) it evened out and looked great to my eye!

And to let you know how great it already looked, I had two buddies here as I was finishing the last two coats (hence the beers haha) and they were speechless when I turned it on. One of the guys here has been helping me through the whole process and has seen the room go from the beginning with the 8100 to now and he couldn't believe it

I am in awe at the black levels and how much it all pops with vibrant whites. How is this thing going to get better???

I will try and get a few screenies this week and write up what I DIDN'T do right so I can save the poor guys who don't know better when doing the process.

Also, that mixing wand worked pretty well, I'm sure that the actual squirrel cage would have been a lot more efficient but it was a nice replacement.

Sorry for the long reply, still waking up for work but thank you again! Like I said, this is the best money and time I have ever spent for what I am getting out of it

Seems memphisanid had the best of intentions, but like so many others over the years who have realized better results than expected, all too often we lose 'em to the lure of "The Big Picture".
A sorta "No News is GREAT News' thingee.

Somehow, I cannot find too much fault with anyone who cannot tear themselves away from using their available free time watching the PJ / Screen in action to come back and post up about it.

go figure. wink.gif
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