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New receivers with good amps

post #1 of 28
7/11/12 at 11:08am
Thread Starter 
I'm trying to decide between a new Denon or Onkyo based on amplifier quality. Something that doesn't need signal processing to sound good with stuff like Phase Control or Sound Retriever, etc. Anyone have opinions on the newer Onkyo receivers NR717 to 1010 or Denon AVR-2313CI or 3313? The more expensive onkyos have push-pull but don't know about the denons. Maybe push pull doesn't make a difference anyways.

My speakers are KEF IQ70, IQ10 and IQ8ds. Low impedance with some frequencies.
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post #2 of 28
7/11/12 at 11:18am
If I wanted better quality for just Amp in receiver I think I go with Marantz. That being said, I say generally build quality of a Denon is better in Onkyo.
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post #3 of 28
7/11/12 at 11:27am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisfromalbany View Post

If I wanted better quality for just Amp in receiver I think I go with Marantz. That being said, I say generally build quality of a Denon is better in Onkyo.

Okay, so that's one for Denon. I'll check the Marantz website to see what they have thanks.
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post #4 of 28
7/11/12 at 11:36am
you may want to look into the new pioneer class d amps

between Denon & Onkyo - I would go for Denon
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post #5 of 28
7/11/12 at 12:48pm
Just make sure your receiver has pre-amp outputs. That way, if you end up being unhappy with the amplifier in the receiver, you can plug in an external amplifier later on.

I'm of the belief that with all electronics/processing etc turned off, there's very little difference between the amplifier sections of Denons, Marantzs, Onkyos, Integras, and Yamahas, and that it's probably better to buy the featureset you need and give yourself the option of better sound through pre-amp outputs. Just my opinion though.
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post #6 of 28
7/11/12 at 1:03pm
I can reply to your question with a personal note.

I'd been using the Onkyo TX-SR606 for some time, powering a pair of Monitor Audio Silver RX6 towers. It had a handshake issue with HD signals that is pretty well-known for the model, which is now out of warranty, thus I went in search of a replacement.

I now have a Denon 2112ci, and I feel as though I now have speakers twice as nice. The imaging is noticeably better, which is difficult to pin down considering they both use the same Audyssey calibration technique. It's a night and day difference.

Go with Denon!
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post #7 of 28
7/11/12 at 1:22pm
Out of those options I would go with the Onkyo 1010 or 818 due to audyssey XT32. I have the 3311 and I really like it but XT32 is a step up from XT. I would mark the 717 off the list as it only uses 2EQ. I think the Denons have good power but Onkyos do too so power differences between them should be negligible.
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post #8 of 28
7/11/12 at 1:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by inanevoyage View Post

I can reply to your question with a personal note.
I'd been using the Onkyo TX-SR606 for some time, powering a pair of Monitor Audio Silver RX6 towers. It had a handshake issue with HD signals that is pretty well-known for the model, which is now out of warranty, thus I went in search of a replacement.
I now have a Denon 2112ci, and I feel as though I now have speakers twice as nice. The imaging is noticeably better, which is difficult to pin down considering they both use the same Audyssey calibration technique. It's a night and day difference.
Go with Denon!

The 606 has 2EQ which uses lower resolution filters on the speakers and does not EQ a subwoofer. The MultEQ XT on the Denon 2112 was probably the reason for the step up in sound.
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post #9 of 28
7/11/12 at 2:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alec88 View Post

Okay, so that's one for Denon. I'll check the Marantz website to see what they have thanks.

For a mid-range feature set in a Marantz, you'd be well served by the SR5007.

Ours just arrived today. Price wise, by calling around, you might do better, as delivered, we paid $750.00. This minute I'm charging the cordless drill to make a boatload of ventilation/cable passageway holes in the entertainment center as there are none. eek.gif What's with an entertainment center and no ventilation/cable passageway openings? confused.gif

FYI, the Marantz SR5007 is a 7.2 receiver with a full set of 7.1 pre-outs and all of today's standard whistles and bells.

-
Edited by BeeMan458 - 7/11/12 at 6:57pm
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post #10 of 28
7/11/12 at 3:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjpearce023 View Post

Out of those options I would go with the Onkyo 1010 or 818 due to audyssey XT32. I have the 3311 and I really like it but XT32 is a step up from XT. I would mark the 717 off the list as it only uses 2EQ. I think the Denons have good power but Onkyos do too so power differences between them should be negligible.

+1

Either the 818 w/XT32 for just under a grand or the next best option and to save about $200 would be last year's Denon 3312CI on clearance now, or better yet for roughly $200 more the Denon 4311CI w/XT32 and Sub EQ HT.
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post #11 of 28
7/11/12 at 6:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjpearce023 View Post

The 606 has 2EQ which uses lower resolution filters on the speakers and does not EQ a subwoofer. The MultEQ XT on the Denon 2112 was probably the reason for the step up in sound.

Thank you for this explanation.
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post #12 of 28
7/14/12 at 5:50am
Thread Starter 
Thank you all for your replies. I've narrowed it down to the denon 2313CI and onkyo 1010 but I think that after reading what inanevoyage said about his Monitor towers I'll probably get the denon. I'm going to look at the manuals when I get a chance this weekend.

My newest receiver was a pioneer vsx-lx52 (vsx-23txh US model) that died so I'm using an older sony receiver for stereo with the iq10s. The sony doesn't have enough power for the iq70s and certainly little for surround use. But for stereo the sony has a nice clean sound with most music with the EQ flat. I wasn't happy at all with the pioneer. Even with stereo it sounded dull with the iq70s. The sound retriever boosted the sound but it didn't sound clean.
Edited by Alec88 - 7/14/12 at 5:59am
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post #13 of 28
7/14/12 at 8:59pm
I tried a Denon 2312CI for 25 days and ended up hating it. Muffled sound thru my Klipsch setup. My old HK AVR 635 sounds much better. Considering an Onkyo 3009 or Yamaha.
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post #14 of 28
7/14/12 at 9:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MCF34 View Post

I tried a Denon 2312CI for 25 days and ended up hating it. Muffled sound thru my Klipsch setup. My old HK AVR 635 sounds much better. Considering an Onkyo 3009 or Yamaha.

I am not surprised that you hated the Denon 2312 after using the HK. There are two reasons. One, different brands have different sound signature. Also, HK AVR 635 is a higher end product. It is probably equivalent to a Denon 38xx series.

I used to own a Denon 2700 and then 2803 long time ago. These were my first surround sound receivers. Then I got the HK AVR 247 and was completely impressed so much that I ended up getting a HK AVR 745 refurbished. I was thoroughly satisfied for 4 years and then the upgrade bug caught me last year and ended up buying a NAD T775HD. Wonderful receiver and completely neutral and clear. I don't think I will ever go to brands like Denon again!

Also, I tried an Onkyo 804 against a HK AVR 247 back in 2007 and liked the HK sound.
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post #15 of 28
7/16/12 at 4:22pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MCF34 View Post

I tried a Denon 2312CI for 25 days and ended up hating it. Muffled sound thru my Klipsch setup. My old HK AVR 635 sounds much better. Considering an Onkyo 3009 or Yamaha.

Hmm, maybe it just comes down to the quality of the parts and the amp inside? Last night at denon's site I compared the 2313 with the 4311 audio specs and there are some pretty significant differences. Note the huge weight difference.

AVR-4311

All Channels Rated 20-20kHz @ 0.05 THD - Yes
Low Impedance Drive Capability - Yes
High-Current/Discrete Amplifiers - Mono Amp Design
Dynamic Discrete Surround Circuit – D.D.S.C - HD - Yes
Independent Power Supplies - Yes
Pure Audio Construction - Yes
Weight - 38.2 pounds

AVR-2313

All Channels Rated 20-20kHz @ 0.08 THD - Yes
Low Impedance Drive Capability - No
High-Current/Discrete Amplifiers - Yes
Dynamic Discrete Surround Circuit – D.D.S.C - HD - No
Independent Power Supplies - Yes
Pure Audio Construction - No
Weight - 24 pounds
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post #16 of 28
7/16/12 at 5:07pm
Good observation. While not entirely indicative, weight is a good comparison. For
example, my NAD T775HD weighs 45 lbs. my old HK Avr 745 weighed about that too.
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post #17 of 28
7/17/12 at 1:04am
The KEF IQs are 8Ω rated and not difficult to drive at all. I have two old Reference fronts and a stereo amp 150WPC is plentiful. You don't specifically need an AVR rated for 4Ω. The Denon 4311 should be fine, or a 3312/3313 (only 26.5lb!) with pre-outs for the fronts if you need ext. power amp. I wouldn't trust anything lower than that. Or go with non-mass market brand AVRs with more trustworthy power amp sections.
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post #18 of 28
7/17/12 at 5:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bommai View Post

Good observation. While not entirely indicative, weight is a good comparison. For
example, my NAD T775HD weighs 45 lbs. my old HK Avr 745 weighed about that too.

Some receivers, like Pioneer, use class D amps which are very efficient and don't weigh much. Some manufacturers use iron heat sinks. Some use aluminum. Iron costs less and weighs more. I would never make a buying decision based on the weight of a unit.
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post #19 of 28
8/6/12 at 9:40pm
Thread Starter 
I've had some time last week and checked out some Onkyos like the NR1009, 3009, and a smaller one (forgot which) and found that surround processing is always on even with pure and stereo modes. Speaker distance processing is active all the time and you can actually hear the sound change as the speaker distances are changed. That doesn't seem right to me. Can some of the owners check this out?
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post #20 of 28
8/6/12 at 9:48pm
Not with pure and direct.. What processing are you talking about?
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post #21 of 28
8/6/12 at 10:00pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LowTech1 View Post

Not with pure and direct.. What processing are you talking about?

The "Speaker Distance" setting in "Speaker Configuration" which is used for surround processing.
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post #22 of 28
8/13/12 at 12:27pm
Thread Starter 
Okay, I'm about ready to give up on the Onkyos. Between the NR1009 and NR3009 the 3009 has the edge in power and the imaging is just better. However, the sound in stereo just sounds processed and unnatural even with "Pure Audio" mode. It's not pure at all like with the Onkyo integrated amps. No matter what mode is selected, pure, direct, strereo, etc, the sound is always processed. And I finally found out why. It's right there in the manual and it applies to direct and pure mode as well:
Quote:
Direct: In this mode, audio from the input source is output without surround-sound
processing. The speaker configuration (presence of speakers) and speaker
distance settings are enabled, but much of the processing set via Home menu
is disabled. A/V Sync does not have effect on the analog audio]

So even if I get the mc5500 amp the sc5508 processor will still do the same thing. frown.gif
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post #23 of 28
8/13/12 at 8:01pm
What is this with people putting so much emphasis on pure or direct audio modes. What ever you are listening to has sound engineers tamper with the sound. In your home it will not sound like it did in the studio, so why not use some processing to get the sound right (balance and equalized). Has pointed out in this post, higher quality avrs do more to ensure a better sound than mid level avrs.
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post #24 of 28
8/13/12 at 8:04pm
If they sold avr's without sound processing, very few avr's would sound good.
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post #25 of 28
8/13/12 at 10:22pm
Thread Starter 
Yeah but if you get used to the sound of a good stereo amp it's hard to put up with that kind of processing for stereo. I don't mind if it's for movies or even surround stereo but I'd like a basic unprocessed sound for CDs too.
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post #26 of 28
8/21/12 at 3:44am
Thread Starter 
Well, I've decided to get rid of the KEF set for something else. Anything more than the NR3009 is going to go above $2000 and that's too much for something that only has a 2 year warranty. But receiver/amp will be the Marantz MM7055 with one of their receivers as a processor or the Sony 5700ES. I found some nice specs on th MM7055. It has some serious 65000 microfarad capacitors and a damping factor of 100. The 5700ES has a DF of 100 at 8 ohms, 50 at 4 ohms but it's not in the public specs. Either of these would run around $1500.
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post #27 of 28
8/21/12 at 4:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alec88 View Post

Yeah but if you get used to the sound of a good stereo amp it's hard to put up with that kind of processing for stereo. I don't mind if it's for movies or even surround stereo but I'd like a basic unprocessed sound for CDs too.

you do realize that your room does not care if you are watching movies or listening to music, correct?

and that the room (and speakers) make up 99.9999% of what you hear?

and that the amp, as long as it is robust enough to drive your speakers (and isn't one of those amps that intentionally modify the signal, generally only found in "audiophile" equipment), isn't going to effect what you hear?

"unprocessed" sound, as you define it, certainly is "processed"... it is "processed" by your room... this is very easy to prove to yourself... bring your speakers outside and hook them up...

"room correction/eq" gets you closer to what is on the cd, not farther away...
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post #28 of 28
8/22/12 at 3:30am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

you do realize that your room does not care if you are watching movies or listening to music, correct?
and that the room (and speakers) make up 99.9999% of what you hear?
and that the amp, as long as it is robust enough to drive your speakers (and isn't one of those amps that intentionally modify the signal, generally only found in "audiophile" equipment), isn't going to effect what you hear?
"unprocessed" sound, as you define it, certainly is "processed"... it is "processed" by your room... this is very easy to prove to yourself... bring your speakers outside and hook them up...
"room correction/eq" gets you closer to what is on the cd, not farther away...

I'm sure different listening rooms will have different acoustics but even so. I tried MCACC and prefered the sound without it for music.
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