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HDD speeds 7200rpm vs GREEN. Network speeds from movie server discussion for SAMMY2 Continued - Page 2

post #31 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by pohh-bah View Post

Local HD transfer speed =/= LAN transfer speed =/= internet upload speed =/= internet download speed
This whole thread is a mess.

Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

I don't understand it either.

I think the point is to discuss bottlenecks, the weakest link in the chain so to speak.

At any rate, I was able to speed up my backup over my network to about 40Mbps but as I mentioned earlier this is not a true measure of sped either because there is encryption and compression going on too.. all on the boot drive of my PC that is doomed to fail soon.

BTW, is there a free software that measures network performance? My kid gave me a link to one that was only a free trial for 30 days and that expired long ago.
post #32 of 57
The main purpose of green drives is storage. If you are using your drives for storage, aren't they quite fast enough already?
post #33 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammy2 View Post

BTW, is there a free software that measures network performance?

iperf
http://sourceforge.net/projects/iperf/

or jperf if you prefer a gui for it:
http://code.google.com/p/xjperf/
post #34 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by cybrsage View Post

The main purpose of green drives is storage. If you are using your drives for storage, aren't they quite fast enough already?

Agreed. What do I care if it takes 15 minutes vs 10 minutes to move over my copy of "Big Trouble in Little China"?

To me the noise, heat, energy usage and cost saving is well worth it. I don't understand why we are debating this. This isn't Tom's where we are trying to create the fastest server/PC ever created.
post #35 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

iperf
http://sourceforge.net/projects/iperf/
or jperf if you prefer a gui for it:
http://code.google.com/p/xjperf/
Also you could use the Network Test in the Passmark Performance Test 7 software. It has a free 30-day trial. See http://passmark.com
post #36 of 57
Green drives are great but sometimes if I'm downloading a file my internet is faster. I get a balloon notification stating, "Pausing download while drive catches up" quite often when using newsleecher. I do like the low energy use and temperature of these drives and will get two more of them when needed because if it takes 25 minutes rather than 20 minutes to complete the download it doesn't matter most of the time unless I'm waiting for it so I can watch it today which hardly ever happens.
post #37 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

iperf
http://sourceforge.net/projects/iperf/
or jperf if you prefer a gui for it:
http://code.google.com/p/xjperf/

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeanM View Post

Also you could use the Network Test in the Passmark Performance Test 7 software. It has a free 30-day trial. See http://passmark.com

Thanks!
post #38 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammy2 View Post

Green drives are great but sometimes if I'm downloading a file my internet is faster. I get a balloon notification stating, "Pausing download while drive catches up" quite often when using newsleecher. I do like the low energy use and temperature of these drives and will get two more of them when needed because if it takes 25 minutes rather than 20 minutes to complete the download it doesn't matter most of the time unless I'm waiting for it so I can watch it today which hardly ever happens.

I highly doubt your internet connection is faster than your green hard drive. I would find that hard to believe. Are you sure there isn't something else causing the issue?
post #39 of 57
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

I don't understand it either.

People are confusing MB and mbps. Also confusing download and upload internet speeds vs transfer over local network speeds.
post #40 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

I highly doubt your internet connection is faster than your green hard drive. I would find that hard to believe. Are you sure there isn't something else causing the issue?

The green drives with overhead, especially if there's some RnE going on will be taxed out.

Most of the time this will not happen as these drives are typically faster than typical internet speeds.
Edited by Sammy2 - 7/13/12 at 8:45am
post #41 of 57
This is an argument I have with my son all the time.

He insists on only using WD Black at $100/TB whereas I tell him he's wasting his money and any one of the green drives on sale the week you're shopping is all you need.

He has a bunch of Black drives. I have a bunch of money in my wallet.
post #42 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammy2 View Post

The green drives with overhead, especially if there's some RnE going on will be taxed out.
Most of the time this will not happen as these drives are typically faster than typical internet speeds.

Most of the time? Typically?

You're seriously saying you have a 1Gpbs internet connection? Even FIOS Ultimate is "only" 300Mbps.
post #43 of 57
No I am not and the green drives cannot transfer at Gbps speeds either. They are less than 100Mbps and with overhead and other things going on even less than that. If I'm d/l'ing, doing RnE and using MakeMKV or mkvMergeGUI at the same time the drive isn't able to keep up. Neither will a 7200 RPM drive for that matter. I'd rather keep the $$ in my pocket because this really isn't an issue. Green drives are prefered for a lot of things.. Lower heat, lower noise, lower power use and lower up-front cost.
post #44 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammy2 View Post

No I am not and the green drives cannot transfer at Gbps speeds either. They are less than 100Mbps and with overhead and other things going on even less than that.

You're confusing Mbps and MB/sec. The WD Green drives (WD20EARS) can do 110MB/sec, that's 880Mbps:
http://www.storagereview.com/western_digital_caviar_green_2tb_review_wd20ears

You're actually doing pretty good if you can get the full performance out of a Green drive over the network.
Quote:
If I'm d/l'ing, doing RnE and using MakeMKV or mkvMergeGUI at the same time the drive isn't able to keep up. Neither will a 7200 RPM drive for that matter. I'd rather keep the $$ in my pocket because this really isn't an issue. Green drives are prefered for a lot of things.. Lower heat, lower noise, lower power use and lower up-front cost.

I'm not saying you shouldn't use green drives, you just said your internet was faster than a green drive which is essentially impossible. Now if you're thrashing it with lots of other stuff you can definitely hit the limits of a green drive, or any drive (even an SSD) but that's a completely different issue.
post #45 of 57
I didn't mean to say my internet was faster than a green drive. I went on to say was that my d/l's were being paused which means the drive had to catch up so the drive was unable to except the data at the rate it was getting it. Of course, the speed of the drive will depend on a lot of things, including how full it is and whether it is fragmented to. With the amount of data that passes across the platters of my drives it is hard to keep them unfragmented as well.
post #46 of 57
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

Agreed. What do I care if it takes 15 minutes vs 10 minutes to move over my copy of "Big Trouble in Little China"?
To me the noise, heat, energy usage and cost saving is well worth it. I don't understand why we are debating this. This isn't Tom's where we are trying to create the fastest server/PC ever created.

Right.

I use all green drives in my server. My server is storage.

Green drives get me between 90-105MB/sec from my various brands, models and sizes.

Plenty fast.

Much faster than my connection speed over network anyhow. My network would not allow me to use faster so why bother?
I save the $$$ and the heat and the noise.

In my desktop I keep 4TB of storage local. Both are 7200rpm drives. The only 7200rpm drives I still own and use. OS of coarse is SSD:)

On my desktop for a local transfer on the machine I easily get 150MB/sec. That's pretty fast for a HDD I think. I am happy with it.
But say 100MB/sec for a green drive is not really much slower. So yes- I agree with Assassin for storage a GREEN Drive is the best option.
I only install Green drives in my server and nothing smaller than 2TB.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammy2 View Post

Green drives are great but sometimes if I'm downloading a file my internet is faster. I get a balloon notification stating, "Pausing download while drive catches up" quite often when using newsleecher. I do like the low energy use and temperature of these drives and will get two more of them when needed because if it takes 25 minutes rather than 20 minutes to complete the download it doesn't matter most of the time unless I'm waiting for it so I can watch it today which hardly ever happens.

There is no way your internet is faster.

In fact the point I made in this thread several times was that a really good network has about the same connection speed as a basic Green drive. If you can achieve a GREEN DRIVE SPEED on a network transfer your doing really good.
My network falls just a bit short of that.

Most green drives are probably 90-105MB/sec speed. Most networks fall just short of this. High end green drives crack 110MB sec and very few networks deliver that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

I highly doubt your internet connection is faster than your green hard drive. I would find that hard to believe. Are you sure there isn't something else causing the issue?

Right. There is something he is not understanding.
post #47 of 57
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammy2 View Post

I didn't mean to say my internet was faster than a green drive. I went on to say was that my d/l's were being paused which means the drive had to catch up so the drive was unable to except the data at the rate it was getting it. Of course, the speed of the drive will depend on a lot of things, including how full it is and whether it is fragmented to. With the amount of data that passes across the platters of my drives it is hard to keep them unfragmented as well.

yup.

very common for a GREEN drive that is full to slow down. Now throw in time and such.. defrags.. errors.

They can slow down pretty bad. Best option at that point is move the data to another drive like a external or server storage and then reformat that single drive.

I always pay attention to my copy and paste times- If I get something really slow I trouble shoot it.

I hate waiting so I want optimum speed. Assassin and some other laugh at me when I talk about such things- but to me and with constant use- the time saved is worth it to me.
post #48 of 57
I have the Samsung Spinpoint 2tb drives (I think they're 5400 RPM), and I'm getting 125-140 MB/sec in transfers from one drive to another, according to the Windows transfer box. I could be mistaken, but I think having an SSD may help transfer things faster, since all the system overhead and file caching is run through that drive. Also, if you are really obsessed with getting great transfer speeds but want the green drives for heat/energy use, you may be able to install a small SSD and use Intel's RST (I think it's called that) to speed up common file usage.
post #49 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by sbant View Post

I have the Samsung Spinpoint 2tb drives (I think they're 5400 RPM), and I'm getting 125-140 MB/sec in transfers from one drive to another, according to the Windows transfer box. I could be mistaken, but I think having an SSD may help transfer things faster, since all the system overhead and file caching is run through that drive. Also, if you are really obsessed with getting great transfer speeds but want the green drives for heat/energy use, you may be able to install a small SSD and use Intel's RST (I think it's called that) to speed up common file usage.

Yes, they are 5400RPM. Very good drive and plenty fast.
post #50 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by sbant View Post

I have the Samsung Spinpoint 2tb drives (I think they're 5400 RPM), and I'm getting 125-140 MB/sec in transfers from one drive to another, according to the Windows transfer box. I could be mistaken, but I think having an SSD may help transfer things faster, since all the system overhead and file caching is run through that drive. Also, if you are really obsessed with getting great transfer speeds but want the green drives for heat/energy use, you may be able to install a small SSD and use Intel's RST (I think it's called that) to speed up common file usage.
SSD will not help HDD to HDD transfers. Your limiting factor there is simply the speed of the slowest HDD. There is nothing you can do in your system to make transfers between slow HDDs faster that doesn't involve the HDDs themselves (faster drives or RAID).
post #51 of 57
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sbant View Post

I have the Samsung Spinpoint 2tb drives (I think they're 5400 RPM), and I'm getting 125-140 MB/sec in transfers from one drive to another, according to the Windows transfer box. I could be mistaken, but I think having an SSD may help transfer things faster, since all the system overhead and file caching is run through that drive. Also, if you are really obsessed with getting great transfer speeds but want the green drives for heat/energy use, you may be able to install a small SSD and use Intel's RST (I think it's called that) to speed up common file usage.

No I don't think SSD makes it faster.

Your speed is limited to the slowest drive in the chain. Being either how fast the source can read or how fast the other drive can write.

That said you have amazing speed for a green 5400rpm drive.

That is very fast. Most green drives are slower than that. More near 100mb/sec. 125-140is wonderful.

You have nothing to worry about.

I have Samsung 7200RPM and also a Hitachi 7200rpm and both barely faster than yours. 140-150 generally.

Just be happy. Your good.

RST does not help with major copy pastes or designed for major storage applications. It only helps with reading frequently accessed files to provide a speed boost on an OS based HDD install.
post #52 of 57
I've seen the prices for the MSATA SSD come down a bit, anybody think they'd be worth it to use with RST to speed up the commonly used files not on an SSD boot drive? In other words, if I watched a few movies a lot (or had a child that loved a certain Pixar movie), would there be a big enough speed difference to make the cost/installation of the MSATA SSD worth it? In no way is this necessary, I'm just curious, since other people have big storage capacities, and my needs may soon be growing out of the HTPC I built (combine Netflix with MakeMKV and a monster is born).
post #53 of 57
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sbant View Post

I've seen the prices for the MSATA SSD come down a bit, anybody think they'd be worth it to use with RST to speed up the commonly used files not on an SSD boot drive? In other words, if I watched a few movies a lot (or had a child that loved a certain Pixar movie), would there be a big enough speed difference to make the cost/installation of the MSATA SSD worth it? In no way is this necessary, I'm just curious, since other people have big storage capacities, and my needs may soon be growing out of the HTPC I built (combine Netflix with MakeMKV and a monster is born).

No. Not worth it.

Your always better off just adding an SSD and using that for your OS. It's faster and cheaper.

$69 gets you a fast 120GB SSD.

$42 gets your a decent 60GB.

Both of which would be way better than an MSATA add on for less $

Moving or reinstalling your OS is not that hard. MSATA is not worth it at all IMO.

You can even install to the SSD without deleted the existing drive. Just unplug it. In case something goes wrong or you run out of time you just plug the old drive back in and use it like you do now.
Once you get the new SSD up and running- add the old drive back into that as a data drive. Just delete the windows and program folders to free up some space.

I could do the whole thing in 1 hour with no data loss.

I would never bother with MSATA add on.
post #54 of 57
Thread Starter 
post #55 of 57
The problem you are running into is the poor IO service time from the drives in question. This measures the ability of the drive to multitask such as doing a simultaneous read and write.
This is why some review sites measure the IOPS vs request queue depth (this is the queue of outstanding work).

Gigabit ethernet is 125Mbtyes/s, any modern drive can push thru this amount of data but it may not be able to this consistently when it is being asked to do other tasks or data transfers. This one key difference between consumer and NAS/Enterprise drives.
post #56 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammy2 View Post

This is an argument I have with my son all the time.
He insists on only using WD Black at $100/TB whereas I tell him he's wasting his money and any one of the green drives on sale the week you're shopping is all you need.
He has a bunch of Black drives. I have a bunch of money in my wallet.

If the issues discussed here is important to you, your son has a valid point, technically. The Blacks are more expensive as it is a brute force design to solve the problem and hence the cost (dual core vs single core CPU, fancy 2 stage actuator, faster clocked and bigger cache etc).

As for value for money, that is your call.
post #57 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post


The issue I have is he is using a theoretical maximum speed of the port/switch/connection potential and not the real world actual copy and paste achieved transfer speed.
The difference can be significant.

I get sustained 125 MB/s when transferring my movies from main pc to htpc over a Netgear wndr3700 wired network. But only when it is to the Samsung F4 drives in the htpc, if it is to the WD Green drive it is more like 80. And really variable. Sometimes going to the Samsung is slower, but IIRC that was probably transferring a lot of little files (doing a backup).
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