Please Help JVC RS45 vs 6010 Please elaborate on calibrated lumens

I suggest you read the reviews of the two projectors on projectorreviews.com
in full calibrated best 2D mode the RS45 has more lumens. however the Epson has some fairly accurate, but not best, modes where it is brighter and can put out a much brighter image in 3D mode. also note the JVC RS45 does not have CMS so it's colors cannot be fully calibrated unless you purchase an external processor. Finally the Epson has substantially lower 3D crosstalk/ghosting. On the plus side for the JVC is its better native contrast ratio and lower black levels.
Edited by Ron Jones - 7/15/12 at 5:56am

I own an RS40 (very similar to RS45) and Epson 6010. IMHO, if you only care about 2D viewing, the JVC is the better PJ due to the better native CR/blacks without the use of a Dynamic Iris. The RS40 has powered zoom/focus. The Epson's are manual, but that's usually a set and forget thing for most unless you're looking to do CIH via zoom. The newer RS45 model has lens memory for that, the RS40's did not. The Epson has good blacks but it does use a DI so there is some pumping noticeable between total black scenes and then white credits. I can live with it because the 3D is much better than the JVC. I was planning on using both, but after getting the Epson in my HT, my RS40 with extra new lamp, emitter, and 2 glasses is up on Videogon.com for a steal.

Also, if you don't need the Anamorphic modes, THX, mount, extra bulb, black PJ, and additional year of warranty, the 5010 is cheaper.

The Epson's are clearly brighter, even calibrated. The JVCs have better blacks/native contrast. If you watch a lot of darker movies like SciFi/Horror, you'll appreciate the blacks of the JVC more than the Epson, but the Epson's are still very good. The JVCs have a better black "floor". Not sure where you heard that the JVC have more brightness in 2D after calibration. I don't believe that to be true. Also keep in mind that the RS40/45s do NOT have a built in CMS. They're fairly close to 709 in certain mode (can't remember what it's called), but you can only dial in grayscale. JVCs are also known for some gamma drift, so that means more frequent calibrations. Not a show stopper by any stretch, just something to factor in. Same for no CMS. It's important, but really grayscale is more so IMHO.

Also, keep in mind that the JVCs do support 3D with optional emitter and glasses. However, the Espons are much better at 3D with less ghosting, no flicker that I can see, and much needed brightness (which IMHO is critical to really enjoyable 3D). I know that you said you're not a big fan, but if you've seen a movie like Avatar, Hugo, or IMAX Under the Sea in 3D on an Epson, you might just change your mind. I'm really looking forward to Prometheus on Oct. 9th in glorious 3D in my theater. Some 3D movies filmed natively are meant to be seen that way. Just like watching a movie in OAR, it's the way it was intended to be viewed. More and more really good 3D movies available to watch, so I just had to have a great 3D projector that does 2D well enough. That means an Epson at my price point. But only you can decide what's right for you. I hope this all helps.
Edited by stevenjw - 7/15/12 at 2:25pm

I can't comment on the projectors, but I can comment on what that "means".

If you really back this up an oversimplify it, projection lamps have an abundance of Blue and Green, and generally a deficit of red, the ratio of these three colors determines the "color temperature". "Out of the box" projectors are generally far too blue, and need to have blue and green reduced to match the red capabilities of the projector. At a high level, you can think of "calibrated" to mean red, blue and green are brought into their proper relationship to make white, which usually means reducing blue and green, and thus reducing overall brightness. For business projectors, this doesn't really matter so they generally come setup for max brightness regardless of color temperature, where as for home theater you want them to be precisely calibrated to the standards (otherwise people can look sunburned for example) To continue my overgeneralization, projectors with more of a business projector heritage tend to have modes built in that have very high color temperatures that they've inherited from their business brethren. While projectors with out the business influence tend to come closer.

Essentially, projectors "out of the box" are varying degrees from "calibrated". So to answer your question about what the practical application of "calibrated lumens" is, well, essentially it's the only brightness number you should care about. The "ANSI Lumens" spec on the projector is meaningless, it's basically the brightest the projector can go regardless of color temperature/image quality. For one projector, say a business projector, that number might be with a white that looks very blue, where as with another projector, for example my Planar 8150, it could be essentially a calibrated value.

Basically "calibrated lumens" is the only apples to apples comparison of brightness. Or to put it simply if we assume an Epson 6010 produces fewer "calibrated lumsns" than a JVC RS45, then when you get the projector home and set it up to produce the best picture for your home theater, the JVC will be brighter (I don't know if that's accurate or not, I'm just going on the statement in the OP).

I've seen them both side by side in a dedicated/closed home theater room at a Magnolia HiFi near me, narrowed down the field to the same two projectors you're considering, spent hours with them on multiple visits with various material (DirecTV HDTV, BluRay, 3D BluRay, live action, animation, very dark movies) and they let us tweak the settings to our liking on both projectors. I thought the 2D brightness was similar between the 6010 and the RS45 but these were brand new projectors; as lamps dim (JVC has a history of premature lamp dimming, not sure if still issue with RS45) that can change. The JVC lamps cost a lot more than the Epson lamps do too. I played BluRays such as Underworld which is a very dark movie and was very impressed with both projectors on this title, very good shadow detail yet blacks were very good on both (with DI on ofcourse on the 6010). I ended up buying the 6010, have had it for about 6 months and lamp is still very, very bright and we use it as our sole TV so it gets a lot of action. This is my fifth projector and it just rocks. Like others have said its 3D is very, very good. I don't have a high gain screen and the 6010 still has a lot of brightness pumping out of it and not even worth mentioning ghosting on it and I've tried some tough 3D titles like Sammy's Adventure. Best projector I've owned by a mile.

We install both and I'm the calibrator. You have to pick your priorities. If I was going to pick one projector for all purposes it would be the Epson for its versatility. It has brighter modes for ambient light use, good 2D and 3D, bulbs last longer and are less expensive. With that being said you have to pick what aspects are important to you.

Do you care seriously about 3D picture quality or is 2D a priority with occasional 3D use?

Are you going to be watching with a good amount of ambient light where you would need brighter modes?

If you are dong a dedicated room and your answer is 2D and NO to the above questions than the JVC is your answer. It is brighter in its best modes, has the best 2D picture between them, quieter, better build quality and is tops for blacks and contrast in this price range.

Other comments:

I think 130" is a little large for that size and type of screen. You might have to replace bulbs more often or use brighter modes as the bulb ages. Reviews are done with new bulbs and bulbs lose more than 50% of their brightness over their lifespan.

If you don't plan on getting it calibrated, don't worry about it. They both have decent modes out of the box but at least get a calibration disc. If you do get it calibrated don't worry about the lack of a CMS in the JVC it is not that far off. I do recommend getting them calibrated as the differences are noticeable. However being a calibrator I am biased. If you do go for calibration I suggest you find someone with good qualifications, and who is familiar with whatever PJ you get.

An AT screen is the way to go and use 3 identical speakers for the front. I'm not sure which model Def Tech you are considering but I wouldn't build a cavity for them. This will change their sound as it is not how they are designed to be used. If you mean you are going to have an ATfalse wall with AT screen and the speakers will be free standing behind it that would be fine. If that is not an option you might consider in wall speakers and get some of that space back.

If you are going to give up a couple feet of space you might consider a perforated screen with some gain instead, like Stewart's Studiotech 130. The XD doesn't measure as well as the specs. The problem with perforated screens is acoustically it is best to have the speakers 8-12" behind the screen, but that might work for your situation depending on which speakers.

Hope this helps.

Stevenjw or anyone else

I hope that I am not changing course here. I do have a question about one of the pj's in question. Does any have experience with the 6010 vs. the mits 9000? Looking to upgrade from 8350. I have posted elsewhere, knowledge on mits seems to be limited.

You should get the JVC45 if you're not a fan of 3D, I have the Epson 6010/9000w and I'm still not a fan despite its decent 3D. I like the 2D image on the Epson alot but I slightly regret not getting the JVC now.
Edited by nirvy111 - 7/16/12 at 12:35am

The 6010's fan noise is quiet enough on low lamp but a tad noisy on high lamp which is forced in 3D, my unit has a noisy iris though which is noticeable during quiet scenes but I've learnt to put up with it.

HW30 vs RS45:
Source:
http://www.projectorreviews.com/jvc/dla-rs45/performance.php#bright
http://www.projectorreviews.com/sony/vpl-hw30es/performance.php

If you can wait 3 months, I would wait for HW40 to decide, otherwise RS45 is best bet for 2D.

130" would not be overwhelming but it is not optimal for brightness over time.

The cavity would be better than individual cavities but still not ideal. You would definitely need more acoustic treatments than with a false wall. At your seating distance and screen size your front soundstage would still be pretty narrow. Even with a 130" screen I would put the L/.R speakers outside the screen and toe them in, that's why I'd use a false wall with AT material. Pretty inexpensive to build too. At 13' seating distance speakers should be minimun 11' apart and up to 15' apart.

SInce your room is not wide I would move them a little closer to the wall and treat the side and back wall for SBIR. This assumes an 80hz crossover which ideally would place your speakers more than 3.5' from any wall.

check your PM

Well if it were me, I'd buy new just because it is much less risky. The "real-world" difference in PQ between an RS-35 and RS-45 isn't going to be much when watching movies.
Plus, the RS-45 has lens memory for CIH and I expect it will hold its value better over the years. In a couple years the RS-35's are going to seem like dinosaurs just because how old they are (even if they are still good).

I don't think you can get much sharper than the JVC from seating distance as far as how it looks in video. There is a chance the RS-40 you buy could be sharper than an RS-35, and vice versa. Going to be more of a luck of draw on convergence. I would not buy a projector that expensive site unseen unless it was backed by a major vendor (like the B-stocks are). So I think the B-stocks are the best deal if you don't care about CIH. There is always the slight chance of getting a lame unit with any projector, but it is what it is.

I've seen an HD-250, an RS-20, RS-40, and I own an RS-45.
I never saw the RS-35 that I remember (I think I may have actually at a convention once, but wasn't sure if it was an RS-25 or RS-35), but from what other posters that owned it said, it shouldn't make much difference. The RS-40/RS-45 might actually be a little better at motion (neither are the best at this though). As far as sharpness, again luck of the draw most likely. With an RS-35 you were more likely to get a sharper unit because it was hand-picked supposedly by JVC, but I think the newer batch of JVC's (RS-40 onward) are generally sharper on average than the older batch by default (from what I've seen). So either way it's impossible to say. What I can say is all the RS-40's and RS-45's were sharper than the RS-20's I've seen.

That said, at least with the recent JVC's I've seen, they beat all the Epson's I've seen and all recent LCD's on sharpness, and even beat some cheaper DLP's. So being the sharpness junkie that I am, the RS-45 was the first non-DLP I thought that crossed the barrier of being so sharp it didn't matter much anymore. Any sharper would really only benefit a tiny bit in HTPC (but maybe 10% max IMHO, and even then it doesn't matter to me).
Edited by coderguy - 7/20/12 at 4:52pm

RS-40 looked identical to me, same sharpness really, same color, same brightness. Theoretically the RS-45 is a tiny tiny bit brighter, but not enough difference to notice in real-world viewing. They are basically the same projector. Some have claimed the RS-40 is better in 3D, but I didn't see a difference (maybe). The RS-40 is an RS-45 without CIH.

Lamp issue is only a big concern if you are a really heavy user and already pushing your budget. AVS will stand behind the lamps on the B-stock units, so I don't see it as a big concern for MOST people.
If you are one of those people that use it all day for work or something (like use it as a monitor), then yah the lamp could be a big deal.