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Ok I've settled on this one, seems like incredible specs around $500 or less shipped - Page 2

post #31 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by peteleoni View Post

For clarification to those who may need it: The reason for starting this thread was to find out if there was any new tech that combined low price, LED lighting, high luminosity, and high def. This will of course, occur very soon and someone will offer it first, and someone here will find it. Whatever is found will be "dissed" first, then grudgingly accepted, then praised. That is the way it always works. This thread is an attempt to find it. I will therefore link to any projectors I find regardless of brand so the inevitable process aforementioned will occur asap.

re-read coderguy's posts...

hint: technology trickles down, not up.... the rebrands/knockoffs come AFTER the tech is developed, they don't develop the tech...

however, if you wanna beat your head up against a wall, be my guest....

edit: if you search around, i betcha you can find a bunch of items that will improve your gas mileage/horsepower by incredible numbers... amazing how well those things work... wink.gif
post #32 of 71
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

^^^
all of us are looking for that...
unfortunately, for "home theater" use (not business/classroom), the "low price" part doesn't exist yet... eventually, it will... but not yet...

Eventually includes a millisecond from now. (-: I think we are very close, within days or weeks. That's why I linked to the Vivibright site. Apparently these products are not available for sale anywhere now, but seem to be on the way imminently and there are no distributors at all that I can find. What I was alluding to is that they seem to have cracked that nut, but I can't find more info. In my experience, that may mean that they are an OEM for someone and keeping it close to the chest. I was hoping that one of the cheap Chinese rigs that I pointed to first were one of these type units, and I'm still not sure that they are not. The LED section of the Vivibright site is most intriguing. The fact that they are using a >100 watt LED may mean the they are very bright. Sorry if anyone misinterpreted my motives. Please someone go to the LED section of that site, I wont link anymore even though they are not apparently available yet. My previous experience with this kind of thing in the pro audio community indicates to me that something is just about to break here.
post #33 of 71
Thread Starter 
I looked again they are giving detailed specs and they are saying it's a 130 watt LED in one of those LED projectors. That can't be dim can it?
post #34 of 71
Thread Starter 
My track record indicates I don't fall for 100 mpg tech, I promise. (-: And I most certainly have seen it the other way around. I admit it's not very often. I have been in on more than a few of those "discoveries" Intel hid it's new core inside an entry level chip for about a year, I busted them. Creative hid it's EMU chip in the Sound-blaster and sold an expensive version with different drivers. I busted them and installed the Emu drivers. All of that is well documented. I admit it's been a while. One thing for sure, you never find something like that easily and *never* without someone saying it can't be done. I do appreciate that this does not occur often. This looks like a good prospect.
post #35 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

^^^
all of us are looking for that...
unfortunately, for "home theater" use (not business/classroom), the "low price" part doesn't exist yet... eventually, it will... but not yet...
26 led 1080p pjs(dont know why the panny led/laser is on the list)-there will be some led/laser 1080p hybreds around 3 grandish.HT pj sales are around 40,000 a year a tiny market and is well coverd by pure led,the hybred stuff will be a compromise and business/classroom based like the new pannys look or viewsonics, optomas, casios laser led or benqs color wheel/laser pjs.

http://www.projectorcentral.com/projectors.cfm?led=1&db=&br=&c=&sort=pop&mfg=&g=1&sp=&st=16&p=&ar=&dt=&w=&t=&hide=0&ll=&td=0&i=d&is=0&dvi=&sz=15&r=13&tt=0


38 Projectors Found led/laser or cw/laser
http://www.projectorcentral.com/projectors.cfm?db=&br=&c=&sort=pop&mfg=&g=1&i=d&st=31&laser=1&p=&ar=&dt=&sz=15&t=&hide=0&w=&ll=&td=0&exp=1&is=0&dvi=&sp=&r=&tt=0
post #36 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by peteleoni View Post

My previous experience with this kind of thing in the pro audio community indicates to me that something is just about to break here.

pure led has been around for awhile now and lase/ led is 2 years old now,the tech is well known and not much new or cheap is gonna happen in HT pjs.the market is to small.
post #37 of 71
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by eat meat View Post

pure led has been around for awhile now and lase/ led is 2 years old now,the tech is well known and not much new or cheap is gonna happen in HT pjs.the market is to small.

Thanks, I get that. Let me re-clarify Pure LED, high brightness, High resolution and low price combined.The combination of these is what I feel may be about to break. Trying to find out where first. I have seen this sort of thing happen in big spurts as opposed to increments. I always like to find out about this type of thing ASAP because it usually means that there will be bargains around in the older tech as well as the new items. Probably not great for retailers but a very good scenario for consumers who don't care to spend a great dal of money but still want the best (Yep, I don't feel they are mutually exclusivity here at all, not for a long time).

An example of this is computer tech. People will spend an inordinate amount of money for the last 5% of difference, and that IMO is ludicrous.

I see this market growing exponentially SOON as the price drops below $500. My sister almost crapped when she realized she could get rid of the big screen and replace it with a painting. For one thing, these new projectors can be hidden. I had mine hidden ( an older one) inside a large light fixture. It was barely visible. These new ones will be much smaller. The whole shebang could have a waaay smaller footprint than a TV, and the brightness levels of new LEDs make all day viewing distinctly possible. I can think of a lot of very good reasons why this might happen. I'm pretty sure based upon my recording studio clients reaction including the living room conscious women, that I see an importunity here for the coalescence of my field (music computers) with HTPC's and projectors. I am starting with my own rig as a showcase. I guess I am a lot more interested in technical data. This IS going to happen. I may be going against the grain but heck Doing "this" against the grain is how some of us get Krogers and get to fly airplanes I suppose (-: So once again, does anyone here know the deal with single LCD based projectors? What technical reason did they get eclipsed besides lighting issues? Was it all lighting issues
post #38 of 71
I agree with peteleoni here, but I also understand that if something is too good to be true it usually is. There are some cases where you stumble upon a great find but those are few and far between, but who knows this maybe that case. I have had my eye on that cheap led pj on ebay but I have been afraid to pull the trigger. Hopefully we can find more info on it or possible even a video unboxing the item. If anbody finds any info on it please post.
post #39 of 71
something is about to break?
Quote:
Pure LED, high brightness, High resolution and low price combined
sorry nothing like that is even possible or planned-price or tech wise.sorry your feelings really dont matter,the leading edge of what is possible and known in led tech does.these are the leading leds and used in most led pjs.
http://www.luminus.com/
a cheap pico dlp 720p chip(1140X912) is whats driving the small led pjs right now and we know that a lot of them are coming out of the same factory and being sold under diferent brand names wink.gif .

there will never be a single panel lcd pj that looks good(they wash out) ,or it would be done.
post #40 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by cakegetter View Post

I agree with peteleoni here, but I also understand that if something is too good to be true it usually is. There are some cases where you stumble upon a great find but those are few and far between, but who knows this maybe that case. I have had my eye on that cheap led pj on ebay but I have been afraid to pull the trigger. Hopefully we can find more info on it or possible even a video unboxing the item. If anbody finds any info on it please post.

somehow, i don't think if a miracle has somehow occurred, the first person to be selling it would have sold more things that lightswitch decals for a penny apiece.... wink.gif

furthermore, regardless of how confident the op is in himself, the facts are the facts...

second furthermore... as you go up the food chain in price on projectors, the differences are not insubstantial... my previous vivitek projector was a nice unit... however, there is no comparison between that and the mitsubishi i have now... and that's not even chasing the "last 5%"...

as far as a sub 500 dollar pj changing the paradigm.... HIGHLY unlikely... cheap pj's are available now... there hasn't been a mass rush by the public to implement them... i wish there would be a mass rush, as that would pump more money into the industry, some of which might find it's way to r&d...
post #41 of 71
This thread is a bit funny. Projectors are not like stereos. I don't even know what the argument is, there is no argument here.
You can get cheap projectors but the contrast will be worse and often other attributes are not as good either like the sharpness, color accuracy, etc... Things like stereos work about the same as far as output quality regardless of what you buy (as far as digital output in general). Projectors are very very different.

The argument is like if I can find a car with an engine just as good and fast as the $200,000 Lamborghini for $25,000 brand new with the same performance. Good luck with that...

The deals you will find on projectors are used and refurbs not knock-offs.

It's no more possible than it is for Chevy to copy a Lamborghini and sell it for $25,000... They can copy SOME of the traits in there and sell it for under $100,000 possibly, but it won't be an identical knock-off. Some of the stuff on projectors is generic, but the MFR's add their own touch more so than most electronics, and that final engineering they do to them is what makes all the difference in the world.

Maybe in 20 years, but even then I doubt you will get great contrast. You can get decent projectors now for under $1000 but they won't be as sharp or have as good of black levels, still they are fine for most uses. So stick with those if that is your budget, but don't buy a generic no-name brand.

BTW, I've been waiting for a $25,000 Lamborghini knock-off since the 1970's that performs the same, are we there yet?
It's just around the corner eh...
Edited by coderguy - 7/25/12 at 7:56am
post #42 of 71
Thread Starter 
Foe what it's worth, I am still going to post everything I find here. Appreciate all of the responses by experts and retailers alike.
post #43 of 71
Thread Starter 
*Not* Led, but very, very small 5.7 lbs @ 11.2" x 3.2" x 9.2", certain would hide in a large lamp. 1280 x 800 very long bulb life, (5000-6000 hrs) 2700 lumens native 16:10
Street @ $450. DC 3000:1 (2000:1) fits all of my parameters except sadly, LED. But with 5000 hrs and 2700 lums I might break my rule.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824116486
The in cart price is $450, also saw elsewhere for that.
post #44 of 71
Thread Starter 
I'm guessing that there is something else wrong with these besides the 1024 x 768 resolution? (which I have not found to be much of an issue in the real world) I'm only mentioning this because these are already in the >$800 range new. and have been around a while. I would be very interested in someones real world experience with this. And yes I am doing a search here

Casio XJ-A140
Edited by peteleoni - 7/24/12 at 11:59pm
post #45 of 71
Thread Starter 
Questions: 1.
How reliable (IN GENERAL) are well respected brand names ANSI lumen ratings?

And question 2:
How often do you see *ANSI lumen ratings*, (as opposed to the obvioulsy arbitrary and therefore largely meaningless lumen ratings) abused in general?

Thank You

Pete
post #46 of 71
ANSI lumen ratings don't mean that much, you have to look at review sites. I'm not trying to criticize you, but I'm just saying projectors are not like most electronics and eventually you'll figure out what the rest of us already know. I have no horse in this race, no dog in the show, and no interest in the bank. I get nothing by telling you one way or another. I do not sell projectors, I do not work in the projector industry. It is just a hobby.

Check out sites like at www.projectorreviews.com and www.projectorcentral.com, they often publish TRUE best modes. This matters a lot more than MFR published ANSI lumen specs.

If you are looking for the best PJ under a certain price point for home theater, us veterans already know how to advise, you are just wasting your time trying to evaluate a PJ based on a given model and ignoring expert opinions. There are thousands of PJ's, you are not understanding the system of summary review which experts already have been through. All the answers you seek are in this forum, keep an eye out in the DEALS section of the forum for refurb deals. Refurbs sometimes come with warranties almost as good as a new one, so you can swap if something goes bad. Buying a projector for a new person is a VERY daunting task, without hands-on experience you will not figure it out just by reading, other than to just listen to the advise of others in this forum when we advise you on a deal.

I would hone in on your MAX budget and start a new thread that doesn't start out by pitching chinese knock-offs. The thread has turned off the people that would normally give the real valuable advice in this forum.

Best deals going right now:
B-Stock JVC RS-40 for under $2000
Refurb Epson 6500 around $900, or a refurb Mits hc4000 or Mits hc3800, or even refurb Epson 8500 or 8700

New under $1500 and 1080p:
Mits hc4000 (no 3d), Optoma hd33, Epson 8350, I could go on and on, they are in my sig link anyways, I'll leave it here

Even cheaper approaching $600 or maybe less
Benq w710st, Optoma GT 750, Refurb Viewsonic Pro8200 or new

If you are ultra-price sensitive, wait for a sale on the w710st, that is a good one and sometimes goes for around $500 or so, or grab you a used or refurb projector. You have to verify if it will work in your room and fit in the mounting requirements and all that. $500 is a tough budget to be restricted to, but you can find something very good and project onto a wall with a little patience. I am just telling you to look at refurbs and sales, not knock offs, that's all I'm saying.

You are not likely to find some magical model the rest of us missed smile.gif
I give the chances of you finding this magic projector to about 1 in 500. You do have a good chance of finding a great deal on a refurb unit though.

I own many projectors and paid right at $500 for my refurbished Pro8200, which was a great deal. Great deals are out there, you just have to grab one fast when it comes. I also own projectors that cost 6x as much as the Viewsonic. The Viewsonic will hold its own in bright scenes but not as good in dark scenes, still you can get A LOT of bank for the buck for $500 these days if you get lucky and grab something fast when you see it. You cannot get quite as much bang for buck from new units, you will get no bang for buck on no-name units. The Viewsonic refurb deal is just one example, there are occasionally similar deals on other models, you just have to grab them fast!

I watch my Viewsonic and play games on it so I don't burn up my more expensive projectors, and really it looks just as good (95%) in most stuff, just not in dark movies or a few things.

Good luck!
Edited by coderguy - 7/25/12 at 12:29am
post #47 of 71
Thread Starter 
Thank a lot for the useful info. (I mean that) I did do some research a few minutes ago and found out that the spectra in LED's is the actual problem. I read through a lot of white papers at Luminous Devices to see what exactly is going on.

To myself in time machine: "Hi Pete, the actual problem with LED projectors at the moment is that the spectra in LED's is widely divergent when compared with of other light sources" ( I previously and erroneously assumed it was the blue component)

Pete, back to self: "Thanks Pete that *one* single piece of info that I could have grasped in milliseconds, had someone uttered it, has saved me from getting flamed on a home theater forum.

Pete back to Pete:

"That's OK Pete, we've been here before, and we inevitably wax triumphant, but just in case there is some other poor, innocent novice out there scouting obtusely for this info, let's you and I post the pertinent information here to save the poor man (or woman, of course, but that goes without saying) from the prodigious pain of a having to ask questions one one of these forums, for they may not have the luck to stumble upon one so profoundly genial and open to neophytes as AVS obviously is.

Behold intrepid registrants! Printed below is the actual spec for Luminous Device's highest rated LED that is suitable to be used in a projector. Please note, intrepid and imprudent docent lurking on this forum, the simple fact that the visible spectra of these LED's is *astoundingly* uneven.

I present to you brave one, the specs of the Luminous Devices PT-12.
Behold and tremble intrepid and impudent disciple, for this wretched knowledge has been obtained only with great torment.

Luminous Devices PT-121 LED Spectra:
Red: 1,360-2,225 lumens
Green: 2,700-4,300 lumens
Blue: 550-970 lumens

Red: 623nm
Green: 525nm
Blue: 460nm
4.0mm x 3.0mm MCPCB, 28.0mm x 26.75mm 30.0A*
Edited by peteleoni - 7/25/12 at 1:37am
post #48 of 71
Thread Starter 
Pete to Pete:

"And you still kinda have it wrong dude, but you at least have a clue now"

@ coderguy The Optoma GT 750 looks great. I've seen $500 ones.
Edited by peteleoni - 7/25/12 at 2:08am
post #49 of 71
pt-120 leds have been used in led pjs for years now

http://www.projectorcentral.com/projectors.cfm?g=1&hide=0&st=1&mfg=&p=&w=&r=13&br=&ll=&t=&db=&dt=&c=&ar=&dvi=&led=1&pjl=&pjw=&pjh=&td=&i=d&is=&sort=pop&sz=15

look at real lumens,the panny is a hybred and shouldnt be in the list and the specs for the cre are a joke,500-1000 lumens is the norm and the runco stacks are 2 pjs combined.
post #50 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by peteleoni View Post

I'm guessing that there is something else wrong with these besides the 1024 x 768 resolution? (which I have not found to be much of an issue in the real world) I'm only mentioning this because these are already in the >$800 range new. and have been around a while. I would be very interested in someones real world experience with this. And yes I am doing a search here
Casio XJ-A140

I own the casio xja-240 1280x800(720p)-they are the first hybreds to hit the market-most every pj maker is planning or has a hybred -
http://www.projectorcentral.com/Casio-XJ-A240.htm


34 Projectors Found(hybreds)
http://www.projectorcentral.com/projectors.cfm?g=1&hide=0&st=1&mfg=&p=&w=&r=&br=&ll=&t=&db=&dt=&c=&ar=&dvi=&led=1&exp=1&laser=1&pjl=&pjw=&pjh=&td=&i=d&is=&sort=pop&sz=15
post #51 of 71
LOL, you guys are keeping the troll well fed. rolleyes.gif
post #52 of 71
Thread Starter 
I am no troll. I am but a humble student here on an immersive mission of true HT knowledge. My calling here is to acquire the largest amount of pertinent data here in the shortest amount of time, directly from the folks here who I feel the most qualified abecedarys

The time here as student will be greatly appreciated and remembered fondly long after I graduate form these halls with a tacit PHD bestowed by you, my teachers, and have presented me with Carte Blanch status in these various cybernetic Home Theater campi.

Anything less decorous would be disrespectful and rude to those hallowed and grizzled veterans whose doctorates proceeded my own...Calling me a troll? Well now that is kinda of rude.

Pete
Edited by peteleoni - 7/25/12 at 3:00pm
post #53 of 71
Thread Starter 
So do short throw projectors have any objectionable lens distortion or other issues? One could understand other benefits like higher luminosity at the screen to be gleaned for short as opposed to long throw projectors?

Thanks, Pete
post #54 of 71
Thread Starter 
OK, got the scoop on short throw elsewhere. Want to seriously thank all of you guys on these forums for all of the superb info and a bit of fun. Got more than enough data to go one now. A funny aside,one of the dudes that hooked me into researching this has, you guessed it, a damn Lamborghini in the unfinished garage of the house he's building the HT in. Not for me, Cessna's beat earthbound vehicles any day. Believe it or not, he's going with a 90" TV, and he has the room and the flow for whatever he wants. The thought of a his90" TV is what got me interested in seeing what could be accomplished for the average Joe and HTPC's for my recording studio clients who are slowly being "forced" into video via the YouTube social posting network. I can easily foresee "audio guys" having to move in the video direction with budgetary constraints being the issue. Who wouldn't want to see themselves on a 200" screen?

Thank you all very much,

Pete
post #55 of 71
Pete, I'll answer some of your questions, from real world experience. First, the single white LED thing: that is the cheapest way to do LED illumination systems. We marketed the first pocket projector and it used a white LED. After that we went to R,G &B LED's, because, as you move up in lumens, three separate RGB LED's give visibly MUCH greater color saturation/gamut.

Is a one LCD panel projector superior in image quality? No - inferior. That's why the higher-end LCD projector brands moved to the 3 LCD panel system, which obviously costs more, but has superior image quality.

Are they made in China? Every major brand I know of is made in China factories. Spec'd here, designed in Taiwan and made in the Taiwan company's China factory is the norm for U.S. brands. The largest DLP manufacturer is Coretronic, an ODM that does not have its own brand. Huge plant in NE China - I've been there. I believe all the Japanese brands are spec'd in Japan and perhaps designed in Japan, and made in China.

Do short throw projectors have lens distortion? Not if they are designed by good optical engineers. We invented short throw and I know the difficulty of making the key aspherical lens in the projection lens system.

Cheap, all LED illumination, high resolution projectors? NO
Not an HT projector, but movies look darn good on it: our 300 lumen DLP unit that's about 4" x 4" x 1.5": model MP410.

LED's are in about a 15% annual cost reduction, so LED projector prices will get lower. The next big thing will be all laser projectors. There's only one viable laser supplier now, but a couple more will be on board in the future and prices will come down.

Hope that helps.
post #56 of 71
http://www.coretronic.com/products03-1.html
Quote:
Coretronic, an ODM that does not have its own brand.
what about optoma?
post #57 of 71
post #58 of 71
Optoma is a brand. Coretronic is an ODM that builds projectors for several brands.
post #59 of 71
Guys,

Look at the source link the OP posted. It's for viglink. That means every time somebody clicks on it, he gets a small payment. If someone clicks on it and then buys a product, he likely get another cut. All this "research" has just been to keep the thread alive & on top so more people click on the viglink. Nobody wants these crap chinese projectors, its just a scam.
post #60 of 71
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hank View Post

Pete, I'll answer some of your questions, from real world experience. First, the single white LED thing: that is the cheapest way to do LED illumination systems. We marketed the first pocket projector and it used a white LED. After that we went to R,G &B LED's, because, as you move up in lumens, three separate RGB LED's give visibly MUCH greater color saturation/gamut.
Is a one LCD panel projector superior in image quality? No - inferior. That's why the higher-end LCD projector brands moved to the 3 LCD panel system, which obviously costs more, but has superior image quality.
Are they made in China? Every major brand I know of is made in China factories. Spec'd here, designed in Taiwan and made in the Taiwan company's China factory is the norm for U.S. brands. The largest DLP manufacturer is Coretronic, an ODM that does not have its own brand. Huge plant in NE China - I've been there. I believe all the Japanese brands are spec'd in Japan and perhaps designed in Japan, and made in China.
Do short throw projectors have lens distortion? Not if they are designed by good optical engineers. We invented short throw and I know the difficulty of making the key aspherical lens in the projection lens system.
Cheap, all LED illumination, high resolution projectors? NO
Not an HT projector, but movies look darn good on it: our 300 lumen DLP unit that's about 4" x 4" x 1.5": model MP410.
LED's are in about a 15% annual cost reduction, so LED projector prices will get lower. The next big thing will be all laser projectors. There's only one viable laser supplier now, but a couple more will be on board in the future and prices will come down.
Hope that helps.

Hank, You rock, seriously. Thanks you for the retailed and frank answers. I will certainly check out your unit that is amazingly small. The 15% annual cost reduction answers a lot of my questions.
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