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NE PA/NY/NJ/DE/MD/VA GTG - Take Two! - Page 12

Poll Results: Which date works for you? Please vote only once.

Poll expired: Aug 3, 2012  
  • 33% (5)
    Saturday, September 15th
  • 20% (3)
    Saturday, October 13th
  • 46% (7)
    Saturday, October 20th
15 Total Votes  
post #331 of 605
10/3/12 at 5:05am
Thread Starter 
I'd also vote for either a naked run of the subs OR something very basic EQ wise like Archaea suggested. If we're going to have the Omnimic set up already it would only take a few seconds to EQ a band or two anyway. If the owner of the sub doesn't like the way it sounds it can be easily defeated in seconds. I assume we will only be using 1 of the 2 independent sub outputs on my 4311?

Rush - As per above we were planning to use the Seaton Cats with all the subs to minimize the time that would be spent re-setting up the mains again. We could use my living room to demo the different main setups if you would like - and even set up your Hsu there as well.
Edited by Gorilla83 - 10/3/12 at 5:14am
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post #332 of 605
10/3/12 at 5:59am
mic2200 is shown here. there are two identical sides (bands). we would be using the four middle knobs per side to use both sides.

2q3xcfs.jpg

heres an example of that side being engaged.


cap.png


20hz hpf
70hz cut by about 9dB

its kind of a blunt tool because its analog but it does work and with real time graphing it can very quickly be setup to help flatten response like audyssey or any eq tool. we'd have to establish max boost boundaries as a group and general rules of engagement for instance on if two boosts can be used or only cuts. id say maximum of 3db boost and not below subs tune (if ported) is an easy to agree upon rule.
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post #333 of 605
10/3/12 at 6:31am
Thread Starter 
Jonathan - I'd say bring it either way. If we decide to use it, fine, but I can at least try it as a HPF worst case with the Caps. tongue.gif
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post #334 of 605
10/3/12 at 7:21am
I don't think a touch of EQing would be such a bad idea, provided it can be done in a short amount of time. That seems like the case here, so perhaps it's worth considering.
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post #335 of 605
10/3/12 at 7:57am
Thread Starter 
I've got my Omnimic set up on a boom mic and a laptop we can dedicate to running the software exclusively. It should go very quickly.

PS. - My room has it's challenges. tongue.gif
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post #336 of 605
10/3/12 at 8:52am
I agree Audyssey will take too long. I am open to either EQ or no EQ. I can bring a minidsp if that helps. FYI my subs amp does have a single PEQ filter on it but I'm not currently using it..

I for one am not an EQ master, so I'd hate for my sub to show poorly because I'm a moron. I think Archaea's suggestions are all good about max boost, equipment, time, etc.. How about picking one person fairly good at EQ and have him EQ each of the subs using the same approach? I nominate Archaea.
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post #337 of 605
10/3/12 at 12:20pm
A DCX-2496 is very well suited for such a task with presets you can save. The most important factor is to make sure a peak in the room doesn't dominate everything we hear. I haven't yet seen any measurements from Gorilla's room, so I don't know what sort of starting point we have.

If no one local has a DCX', I can probably bring the one I keep handing in the shop.
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post #338 of 605
10/3/12 at 1:12pm
It's been awhile since I've checked in, but I am still planning to attend, to bring both my submersives and I'm still hoping to have a working speclab setup.

IMO, we should do some type of EQ. With REW or omnimic, I don't think EQ should take that long. At a minimum, my suggestion would be to run Audyssey on the speakers we are using and one pair of subs just to get the distances and levels set for the speakers and a starting distance for the sub. Then disable audyssey. For each sub, use a SPL meter to set the levels. (Are we going to run the subs flat or hot?) Then use REW to verify the levels and to check the crossover area to see if any distance adjustments need to be made. Since we won't be running audyssey for each sub, is there a simple procedure to check the sub's distance setting to verify it is relatively time aligned with the speakers? Subs with built in DSP might have a longer electrical delay then other subs. Then run any EQ, minidsp or mic2200.

I think it would be good to take measurements at different listening positions in the room ahead of time, then leave the mic in the same place for all of the sub auditions. I also still think it would be good to take increasingly higher level sweeps until compression. If there are some people planning to meet up Friday night, that might be a good time to do a trial run with one or two subs to get the process down and see how long different EQ methods will take. I might be able to get off work early to get there Friday.

I'm working on getting some music clips together and will bring along a number of movies and multi channel music discs just in case.

-Mike

Now to try and find more bottles of 120 Minute IPA.
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post #339 of 605
10/3/12 at 2:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

A DCX-2496 is very well suited for such a task with presets you can save. The most important factor is to make sure a peak in the room doesn't dominate everything we hear. I haven't yet seen any measurements from Gorilla's room, so I don't know what sort of starting point we have.

If no one local has a DCX', I can probably bring the one I keep handing in the shop.

Mark,

I played with a DCX2496 for a month or so and wasn't as impressed as I hoped. The one I played with was an older model though - used a serial connection, and the thing took a lot longer for me to setup and calibrate - than analog dials on the parametric EQ of the mic2200. The one I borrowed took time to save, had a pretty poor interface, and didn't seem accurate when inputing the REW recommended EQ filters as measured by my omnimic. The DCX2496 is notably powerful, what with multiple PEQ bands, delays, and such, but speed of entry was much slower than just spinning a knob on the mic2200 and watching the frequency response graph change in realtime on the projector screen.

That's my limited experience. I'm sure you're more handy than me, and I'd like to see the newer model (which I assume you'd have). The save feature would be nice because if we wanted to revisit a sub audition we would simply load the previous calibration file.

Do you plan to come through Friday night as well? If so we could give it a trial run? I've since returned the one I was borrowing to the owner, because I liked my limited mic2200 better of the two devices (for my purposes)....


One other thing to consider is delay. Some amps will have greater delays required for phase alignment than others. Omnimic can measure this, but I'm actually unfamiliar with the process. I'll read up on it a bit. To be fair each sub should have the distance measurement accurately set in the receiver for it's particular amp and dsp requirement. This distance setting can make a big difference in sound. (especially for music preferences) That's something where the DCX2496 would excel because those delay settings can be set and saved for each sub in the DCX2496 rather than changed in the receiver.


Gorilla83 --- Do you own a minidsp? I can't remember if you said you had one or not? don't think that's realtime adjustment though either is it? I wonder which is faster DCX2496 or minidsp?


EDIT --- just realized Ironhead voiced my same concerns ahead of my post --- didn't see it.
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post #340 of 605
10/3/12 at 3:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

A DCX-2496 is very well suited for such a task with presets you can save. The most important factor is to make sure a peak in the room doesn't dominate everything we hear. I haven't yet seen any measurements from Gorilla's room, so I don't know what sort of starting point we have.

If no one local has a DCX', I can probably bring the one I keep handing in the shop.

Mark,

I played with a DCX2496 for a month or so and wasn't as impressed as I hoped. The one I played with was an older model though - used a serial connection, and the thing took a lot longer for me to setup and calibrate - than analog dials on the parametric EQ of the mic2200. The one I borrowed took time to save, had a pretty poor interface, and didn't seem accurate when inputing the REW recommended EQ filters as measured by my omnimic. The DCX2496 is notably powerful, what with multiple PEQ bands, delays, and such, but speed of entry was much slower than just spinning a knob on the mic2200 and watching the frequency response graph change in realtime on the projector screen.

That's my limited experience. I'm sure you're more handy than me, and I'd like to see the newer model (which I assume you'd have). The save feature would be nice because if we wanted to revisit a sub audition we would simply load the previous calibration file.

Do you plan to come through Friday night as well? If so we could give it a trial run? I've since returned the one I was borrowing to the owner, because I liked my limited mic2200 better of the two devices (for my purposes)....


One other thing to consider is delay. Some amps will have greater delays required for phase alignment than others. Omnimic can measure this, but I'm actually unfamiliar with the process. I'll read up on it a bit. To be fair each sub should have the distance measurement accurately set in the receiver for it's particular amp and dsp requirement. This distance setting can make a big difference in sound. (especially for music preferences) That's something where the DCX2496 would excel because those delay settings can be set and saved for each sub in the DCX2496 rather than changed in the receiver.


Gorilla83 --- Do you own a minidsp? I can't remember if you said you had one or not? don't think that's realtime adjustment though either is it? I wonder which is faster DCX2496 or minidsp?


EDIT --- just realized Ironhead voiced my same concerns ahead of my post --- didn't see it.

I'd say the choice of EQ is a matter of who's driving and what they want to do with it. I have some friends who always use an RTA, where analog knobs work well with the bouncing graph. I'm usually looking at sweeps which are very consistent one sweep to the next, and have been horribly frustrated with the lack of precision while trying to match the shape of a peak in many of the analog dial PEQs like the old Rane PEQ's. I also don't often use the automated EQ features of REW, so I haven't compared the recommended vs. implemented curves.

In my experience, for subwoofer use the DCX is rather quick to program once you know where things are either on the front panel menus or in the PC interface. You can save the presets very quickly on the front panel or in the PC. Any RS-232 connection can be a bit temperamental, but once you get the setting right, it works just fine. I also usually keep 10-25' serial cables handy.

For the delays, we just need to set the sub distance long enough to account for any of the subwoofers, and use the DCX or MiniDSP to delay each sub to that effective arrival and check that they aren't causing an obvious hole at crossover with the center channel.
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post #341 of 605
10/4/12 at 9:24am
Thread Starter 
Well, we will have access to Archaea's mic2200, my minidsp, and maybe Mark's DCX, so why don't we play with them on Friday night? If it's going to take us more than 5-10 minutes per sub, let's forget it. We can make Friday night a dry run with 1-2 different configurations and go from there.

Thoughts?
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post #342 of 605
10/4/12 at 3:48pm
Rush,

what's the current music and movie clip list?

what's the length? How are we looking in that undertaking?
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post #343 of 605
10/4/12 at 4:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

Well, we will have access to Archaea's mic2200, my minidsp, and maybe Mark's DCX, so why don't we play with them on Friday night? If it's going to take us more than 5-10 minutes per sub, let's forget it. We can make Friday night a dry run with 1-2 different configurations and go from there.

Thoughts?

as far as no eq --- I'm not opposed to no eq to save time - but you'll run into this discussion:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1425179/the-subwoofer-recommendation-by-pricepoint-thread/40_20
start at post 33 and continue for the next couple pages...
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post #344 of 605
10/4/12 at 11:52pm
Favor quick EQ, hmm who has established them self as brand anti-bias?
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post #345 of 605
10/5/12 at 12:07am
I'm open to how the group wants to go. I am coming to learn. However, I felt like A) enjoy the nice equipment sounding nice and B) drink beer
were priorities.

I think we should EQ but not let it take too long whilst we apply EQ similarly amongst subs. Let's make the subs flatish within reason. Stupid high EQ will crush their headroom, SPL, etc... It's all a tradeoff.

EDIT: delete what didn't make since
Edited by dstew100 - 10/5/12 at 6:17am
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post #346 of 605
10/5/12 at 10:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ironhead1230 View Post

I
Now to try and find more bottles of 120 Minute IPA.
I know Dog Fish Head in Rehoboth Del has em. I think they have a few different locations.
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post #347 of 605
10/5/12 at 10:11am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dstew100 View Post

I'm open to how the group wants to go. I am coming to learn. However, I felt like A) enjoy the nice equipment sounding nice and B) drink beer
were priorities.
I think we should EQ but not let it take too long whilst we apply EQ similarly amongst subs. Let's make the subs flatish within reason. Stupid high EQ will crush their headroom, SPL, etc... It's all a tradeoff.
EDIT: delete what didn't make since
I hear you! I am coming to learn myself. I am hoping to have a whole new education on sub tuning when it is all said and done.
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post #348 of 605
10/5/12 at 10:23am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ironhead1230 View Post

Now to try and find more bottles of 120 Minute IPA.

Mike, for the size of our crew, 60 minute will probably be fine. 120 is way expensive for this size of a group! eek.gif
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post #349 of 605
10/5/12 at 10:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Rush,
what's the current music and movie clip list?
what's the length? How are we looking in that undertaking?

Been sick 2 days this week, will post an update on what I have and what I need this weekend. After that I will try to keep on top of it. On a daily, if not sooner basis.
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post #350 of 605
10/5/12 at 11:00am
Thread Starter 
Side note - I may have found a (somewhat) local source for Owens Corning 703 rigid board. If anyone would like some, please let me know. I'll likely pick up 2 cases of 12 2'x4'x2" for myself. biggrin.gif It will be cheaper for sure than any source you can find online.
Edited by Gorilla83 - 10/5/12 at 11:05am
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post #351 of 605
10/5/12 at 3:40pm
I'll contribute to the beer fund --- but I don't want any of that IPA --- yuck!

We went to Dogfish Head Brewery last summer on vacation and a tasted a few of their beers on location --- pretty cool place! The higher the IPA the worse it tasted to my senses.

Though, I tried some of the midas touch and loved it. That was one of the best beers I've had! I bought a pack of that to go because it was so good. Shared it with the family --- it didn't last long. wink.gif
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post #352 of 605
10/5/12 at 3:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by dstew100 View Post

Favor quick EQ, hmm who has established them self as brand anti-bias?


Quick is important!

I don't think bias will play much a role because the EQ operation can be shown up on the projector image and it'll be visible for all to see what we are doing --- so long as those watching stay quiet. Bass frequencies aren't affected much by people sitting in chairs or moving - especially below about 70hz, in my experience --- so that won't matter much. For speaker calibration it's another story --- it's impossible to EQ speakers with people in the room in different and varying positions. It'll make 5dB swing if a chair is in a different position for higher frequencies... eek.gif
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post #353 of 605
10/5/12 at 6:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rush2049 View Post

Been sick 2 days this week, will post an update on what I have and what I need this weekend. After that I will try to keep on top of it. On a daily, if not sooner basis.

thanks for the hard work if you need more songs just say so ive been jotting things down that IMO would be good and can get them cut and covered pretty quickly
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post #354 of 605
10/7/12 at 9:49am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sibuna View Post

thanks for the hard work if you need more songs just say so ive been jotting things down that IMO would be good and can get them cut and covered pretty quickly

X2 Rush, appreciate the help with the clips! 13 days to go fellas!!!

So I've been working on rigging up some room treatment in time for the event. I've got some nulls at ~85hz I'm doing my best to take care of. I've got one framed out already with burlap backing applied. I'm supposed to be getting my 'shipment' of OC703 sometime this week. biggrin.gif:D
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post #355 of 605
10/7/12 at 8:11pm
Ok, splitting this into two posts for ease of reading.

For music we have the following submissions:
Code:
---------------------------Music-----------------------------

Archaea:
Mia - Getto Superstar (32 seconds)
Rockapella - Shambala (35 seconds)
Flux Pavilion - Got 2 Know (25 seconds)
Lil Jon - Get Low (38 seconds)

Sibuna:
Deadmau5 - Ghosts 'N' Stuff (1:00-1:45) (45 seconds)
Sonata Arctica - San Sebastian (0:00-0:45) (45 seconds)
+++Hybrid MC SACD of the Telarc 1812

The_Nephilim1:
TechMaster - EuroBass (0:00-0:30) (30 seconds)
Tocatta (2:45-3:15)  (30 seconds)
Beenie Man - Who Am I (0:20-0:50)  (30 seconds)
Tag Team - Whoomp There It Is (0:00-0:30)  (30 seconds)
Van Halen - 1984 (0:00-0:30)  (30 seconds)
Van Halen - Hot For Teacher (0:00-0:30)  (30 seconds)
Van Halen - Sunday Afternoon In The Park (0:00-0:33)  (33 seconds)

JimWilson:
+++ultimate acid test
Bass-O-Tronics Bass I Love You (1:45 - 2:05) (20 seconds)
Bass-O-Tronics Sub Bass Excursion (0:35 - 1:05) (30 seconds)
+++get some from http://www.avsforum.com/t/1424314/dub-king-presents-the-truth-hz-tracks-that-will-test-the-outer-limits-of-your-system-and-your-subwoofer-s

rush2049:
why so serious - dark knight soundtrack
Five - Ratatat (1:37-2:07) (30 seconds)
Six - Ratatat (0:00 - 0:45) (45 seconds)
Nine - Ratatat (0:00 - 0:20) (20 seconds)
Bob Ghandi - Ratatat (0:00 - 0:15?) (15 seconds)
Moonlight And Madness - Trans Siberian Orchestra (2:50 - 3:00) (10 seconds)
Blow Your High - Lecrae (0:00 - 0:15) (0:54 - 1:06) (27 seconds)

5-100 sweep (1 minute)

Anything with +++ in front means I do not have it.

I think we may need to make cuts from this selection. I also don't have all the timestamps nailed down. I will work on doing a rough cut of this tonight/tomorrow so people can listen to it.


Without that, does anyone have anything additional they want to recommend, or does anyone have something they think should be cut because it is not a good piece to demo with.
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post #356 of 605
10/7/12 at 8:31pm
For movie clips we have had the following suggested:
Code:
---------------------------Movies-----------------------------
JimWilson:
+++Scene 10 of Underworld Awakening
+++stampede in 10,000 BC
+++part in Ironman where he's walking out of the cave (Rush has the dvd of this)
+++ship battle in Master And Commander
+++The Games in Tron

Archaea:
+++The Art of Flight has a fantastic ball dropping dolby digital demo clip
+++The John Mayer Concert disk is great for bass drums
+++I love The Incredible Hulk (2008) growl and smash when they run down the street at each other and collide/tackle in air and there is an energy wave that wipes out the sign.
+++underworld awakening clip or Life Free Die Hard 4 with the apartment scene
+++scene in pulse where she goes into the server room and the sound is well...pulsing. Fantastic and brutal on a sub.

Sibuna:
+++Tron - Games or when he is picked up when first getting to the Grid, Id recomend the later
+++Kung-fu Panda - Skadoosh
+++War of the Worlds - Pod Emerge

realjetavenger:
+++THX movie trailer clip of Amazing Life or Cavalcade? http://www.thx.com/consumer/movies/
+++clip from Iron Man when the fire the jericho missle (listened to this it sucks.....)
+++any time in Iron Man 2 when they are landing (especially toward the end when it is Iron Man and his buddy in the other suit going against the army of robot iron men).
+++bass portion of the scubasteve demo disc (Rush is downloading this currently)

ironhead1230:
+++LOTR:FOTR   ??? what time stamp here

MIkeDuke:
+++TRON - transported to the grid/part of the light cycle race
+++WOTW- street rumble to emergence of pods
+++HTTYD - Big dragon breaks through the mountain
+++Star Trek- Warp Jump. Space jump, Vulcan implodes (Rush has the bluray of this)
+++TDK firing that gun, big chase scene (Rush has the bluray of this)
+++Live Free or Die Hard Apt shoot out, "send the gas"

again +++ means I do not have it, or I have not prepared the clips and it will require effort. Archaea, I believe you might have some of the above mentioned clips already.... let me know which ones.....

We will definitely have to cut from this selection..... which ones do people not care about? I just re-watched Iron Man 1, the Jericho missile scene was not impressive..... the cave exit into the sunlight was ok..... but then again it was only the dvd copy that I have of it.

We need to narrow these down quickly, so that I can go buy and cut the ones that Archaea does not already have.
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post #357 of 605
10/8/12 at 12:01am
Here for everyone's review is a rough cut of the music portion.

All clips are in order listed above, except The_Nephilim1's clips which are not included currently.....

Get comfortable with the content on your system in your listening environment so we can all compare to what we know.

https://skydrive.live.com/redir?resid=4F0500B34EAF9B66!331
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post #358 of 605
10/8/12 at 4:54am
Just got back from Vacation and I am glad to see this is still going strong smile.gif. Can't wait. This sounds like it will be a fun day.
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post #359 of 605
10/8/12 at 5:46am
Thread Starter 
OK - I've sent out a PM with logistics for the day for those that have confirmed. I was limited to 8 users per PM, so I had to send 3, ugh.

Also, let's talk BEER! biggrin.gif For those who are coming in the area from out of town (or those who are local) the best selection around by far is Total Wine. For those who aren't familiar, it's a SUPER market sized beer/liquor/wine store with pretty much anything imaginable. Here is the closest location, about 15 minutes from my place and it's in Delaware so tax free!

http://www.totalwine.com/eng/storeLocator/redirect.cfm?sectionID=b2c/storeLocator/storeDetails.cfm&storeid=1&locationId=17729&searchAgainLink=/eng/storeLocator/redirect.cfm?sectionID=b2c/storeLocator/storeLocator.cfm&var=d&ckey=US

I know Jim is planning on bringing some MagicHat, ironmike some Dogfish, and I'll pick up a case of lager or something similar for the group.

Woot!

P.S. - room updates: Swapped main stage for CHT SHO-10s, front bass trap frames constructed. biggrin.gif
Edited by Gorilla83 - 10/8/12 at 6:55am
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post #360 of 605
10/8/12 at 5:47am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rush2049 View Post

Here for everyone's review is a rough cut of the music portion.
All clips are in order listed above, except The_Nephilim1's clips which are not included currently.....
Get comfortable with the content on your system in your listening environment so we can all compare to what we know.
https://skydrive.live.com/redir?resid=4F0500B34EAF9B66!331

Thank you sir - I will play with these clips some nights this week to get familiar.
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