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Outlaw 978 officially dead - Page 2

post #31 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fastslappy View Post

I gave up the 978 long time ago . seemed like Vaporware then & now this ? I got the same email as well .

When are these small direct internet sales companies gonna learn to build in the USA ? I you can't control your own manufactoring process then you are doomed to this type of actions when you bring a successful idea to the control of outside forces that deem you as a threat ..

The Outlaw 978 was supposed to be priced in the neighborhood of $1,500. It would be impossible to manufacture and sell a made in the USA internet direct prepro with the features and quality proposed for anything remotely near this price point.

I presume Outlaw has no recourse via international law on this? Or maybe they need to keep future options open.

I was actually looking forward to the Outlaw 998 with Trinnov, which was to replace the ill fated 997. The 978 would have shared the chassis with the already in developement 998. The 978 was then added with existing XT32 processing because it was thought to be able to more quickly bring it to market!
post #32 of 121
Hey all! First time poster.

One thing is for sure, future support for Outlaw will be crucial for them. No doubt this is a big financial hit and they will need to recoup this loss through strong sales of the new less ambitious processor they mention, as well as existing product, to see them through this. I do hope the best for them. I've been a fan ever since the RR-2150.
post #33 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skimanfz1 View Post

The Outlaw 978 was supposed to be priced in the neighborhood of $1,500. It would be impossible to manufacture and sell a made in the USA internet direct prepro with the features and quality proposed for anything remotely near this price point.

The corollary here is if Outlaw contracted with a US company for a bit more than $1,500 they would have both a product you could market as made in the US and actually have a product to offer. They would also own the rights and even have legal recourse to prevent something like this happening. Even if the price were closer to $2,000 I know I would be in line to purchase one.

I have hope that there are other companies out there that might look at a new way of doing business that includes US manufacture.
post #34 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by ndskurfer View Post

NAD is a possibility?

Well Harman Kardon hasnt had a pre pro for ages so possibly unlikely ;anthem uses ARC but NAD uses audyssey which meshes with 1 licensed factory ...
Kudos to outlaw though for not naming whichever company though ; real class though they'd maybe sue for reputation loss rolleyes.gif
post #35 of 121
I want to know if there are any Beta testers out there. Certainly they're free to discuss the product now that its dead. I'd like to see some pictures to see if the thing actually existed or if there is some equivocation on Outlaw's part. The factory's engineering department invited Scott to return again in July to help resolve the few remaining issues raised by our beta testers.
post #36 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by jacket_fan View Post

I have hope that there are other companies out there that might look at a new way of doing business that includes US manufacture.

It's coming - with increasoing off shore labor costs, and the ever present shipping costs, the tide is slowly shifting.
post #37 of 121
Very sad to hear. I hope they can regroup and put out something great in the future.
post #38 of 121
Isn't Sherbourn now owned by Emotiva (or is it the other way around)?

This reeks of "big Dan"
post #39 of 121
Sherbourn and Emotiva are both owned by Jade Design. See http://www.cepro.com/article/print/qa_jade_design_ceo_dan_laufman/
post #40 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post

Sherbourn and Emotiva are both owned by Jade Design. See http://www.cepro.com/article/print/qa_jade_design_ceo_dan_laufman/

You're correct..... and Sherbourn isn't sold in "brick and mortar stores".
post #41 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by KramerTC View Post

Isn't Sherbourn now owned by Emotiva (or is it the other way around)?
This reeks of "big Dan"

Did you read the email from Outlaw? It states "NOT an Internet-direct company and its brands and products are sold through conventional "brick and mortar" dealers". As far as I know Sherbourn products are not sold by "brick and mortar" dealers but by custom install companies. Do you think Sherbourn is a big enough company to force a Chinese factory to stop production of the 978? Do you honestly believe that Outlaw would use a factory that builds Emotiva and Sherbourn products wink.gif? Whatever you think of Dan Laufman I doubt he would go to this length to derail the production of the 978.

Bill
post #42 of 121
I'm going with D+M Group for now since they are headquartered in New Jersey and would definitely have the clout. Also Peter says "brands" in the email. That's my conspiracy story and I'm sticking to it until a better one comes along. biggrin.gif
post #43 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by obie_fl View Post

I'm going with D+M Group for now since they are headquartered in New Jersey and would definitely have the clout. Also Peter says "brands" in the email. That's my conspiracy story and I'm sticking to it until a better one comes along. biggrin.gif

It very well could be D&M. Although it would be a real slap in the face from D&M as Outlaw has been selling Marantz products. If Outlaw stops selling Marantz products that will be a good indication wink.gif.

Bill
post #44 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by KramerTC View Post

Isn't Sherbourn now owned by Emotiva (or is it the other way around)?
This reeks of "big Dan"

Doesn't appear so.

From Emotiva:


Quote:
"I personally would just like to say that I am very sorry to hear this. I can honestly say I know exactly how he feels and it is not good. With anyone who ventures into a collaborative project with an outside company these things happen and have happened to us on many occasions. At this point I am sure he feels as though he has let his customers down in some way (I know I always did), anger towards the OEM, regret for his people who have labored long hours and invested much as well as disappointment in the substantial monetary investment that was made.

This is not an easy time for Peter and I encourage all here to extend to him all the good will and well wishes. Contrary to popular belief no one here is celebrating this. In fact it is quite the opposite. I actually enjoy the competition as it drives me to build better products. The demise of the 978 is actually not good for anyone, especially you, the consumer.

So to Peter and his team, I am truly sorry and wish you all the best. Hang in there; in the long run this will be nothing more than a bump in the road.

Lonnie"
post #45 of 121
I can't believe no one is questioning the validity of the Chinese position, as stated in the email.

They work together to develop a product to the point of having all main functions working, and in beta testing.

Suddenly, the supposedly experienced Chinese factory learns that a large customer doesn't want them making a competitors product (absurd position for a Chinese manufacturing facility.)

They've been changing the rules for foreigners at the last minute for decades, this sounds oh too familiar to me.
post #46 of 121
This bad for Outlaw,Emotiva,SVS,Hsu & all the other direct internet sales Audio companies all around ...
post #47 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

It very well could be D&M. Although it would be a real slap in the face from D&M as Outlaw has been selling Marantz products. If Outlaw stops selling Marantz products that will be a good indication wink.gif.
Bill
The thought also occurs to me that if Outlaw had a processor they wouldn't need to sell the Marantz so less Marantz sales.
post #48 of 121
There is not many processors on the market anyway ... the Big Boys would rather sell AVR's than separates mad.gif
post #49 of 121
I am guessing D&M since it would affect products such as the 7005 and Denon equivalents. Also, D&M manufactures mostly in China while Yamaha, Onkyo and many of the others manufacture in Japan or Malaysia. Another possibility is Pioneer but they're also japanese based, so likely D&M.
post #50 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by intence View Post

I am guessing D&M since it would affect products such as the 7005 and Denon equivalents. Also, D&M manufactures mostly in China while Yamaha, Onkyo and many of the others manufacture in Japan or Malaysia. Another possibility is Pioneer but they're also japanese based, so likely D&M.

That would be odd, since Outlaw sells Marantz.

Many brands headquartered in Japan have manufacturing plants elsewhere.
post #51 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by obie_fl View Post

The thought also occurs to me that if Outlaw had a processor they wouldn't need to sell the Marantz so less Marantz sales.

This is true if Outlaw had prepros to sell since they stopped selling the 990 (correct model number?). If the 978 was released there would be less Marantz sales from Outlaw. But if it was D&M that put the screws to Outlaw now there will none (I would think) wink.gif. Either way you have to figure the sales for Marantz from Outlaw would be in question. I would be curious as to how many Marantz prepros and AVRs Outlaw actually sells. I would think before long the whole story will come out. Maybe there is no competing brand at all and the Chinese factory in question will sell their own version of the 978 eek.gif.

Bill
post #52 of 121
The major issue is $..
The development/tooling/validation expense for an HD AVR is $2-3 million, for a brand such as Outlaw which doesn' t have the higher quantities of a Denon or Pioneer so they share the development costs with another brand. Unfortunately for Outlaw the other brand which was mentioned in this thread earlier has refused to share costs. And since the other brand has higher qtys and additional products built by the same factory they buy more $ and have significantly more leverage/influence than Outlaw...

Since there are only (3) ODM factories in China that can build HD AVRs, and Sherwood/Inkel has been eliminated from this list, it is easy to identify the subject factory and the other brand....


Just my $0.02.. wink.gif
post #53 of 121
Come on spill the beans. Which ever company it was I surely won't be doing any business with them. If they did something like this to their competitor then I suppose they would screw over their customers as well.
post #54 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post

Quote:
The major issue is $..
The development/tooling/validation expense for an HD AVR is $2-3 million, for a brand such as Outlaw which doesn' t have the higher quantities of a Denon or Pioneer so they share the development costs with another brand. Unfortunately for Outlaw the other brand which was mentioned in this thread earlier has refused to share costs. And since the other brand has higher qtys and additional products built by the same factory they buy more $ and have significantly more leverage/influence than Outlaw...

Is this the story of the issue behind the 978 or are you assuming this is it?

Quote:
Since there are only (3) ODM factories in China that can build HD AVRs, and Sherwood/Inkel has been eliminated from this list, it is easy to identify the subject factory and the other brand....

Well that leaves two factories and out of curiousity which companies are they? So that would give one a 50/50 shot of picking the correct factory wink.gif.

Bill
post #55 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

Well that leaves two factories and out of curiousity which companies are they? So that would give one a 50/50 shot of picking the correct factory wink.gif.
Bill


The same ODM factory took similar action last year over but with a different competing brand. In fact in that instance, the brand that got cut out actually did all of the up-front product definition/devlopment yet the bigger $ customer simply stepped in and took the AVR platform for themselves. The ODM factory was attempting to facilitate more AVR business but the bigger customer didn't want the competition.

Regarding which ODM factory... rolleyes.gif
With the Sherwood/Inkel factory out of contention it is very easy to know which ODM factory took the action as they already build significant quantity of products for the brand flexing its muscle...

Just my $0.02.. wink.gif
post #56 of 121
I feel bad for Outlaw. A serious setback. Maybe it's for the best.

If they can make a go with someone else maybe it'll be better for everyone. But what a waste of time, geez.

It's not like this other company didn't have plenty of warning.

I take it, it's not Cary Audio? My returned Cinema 12 said Hong Kong, though, I suppose not. China, but not China.
post #57 of 121
A "North American" based company who sells through B&M. Sounds like NAD. Based out of Ontario, use Audyssey, build all their gear in China (ok, everyone does now) & have enough clout to stop development. Just guessing.
post #58 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by kickerofelves View Post

A "North American" based company who sells through B&M. Sounds like NAD. Based out of Ontario, use Audyssey, build all their gear in China (ok, everyone does now) & have enough clout to stop development. Just guessing.

Just found out that Anthem is owned by the same group who owns Paradigm & Matin-Logan--which may give them some clout--so I guess they are the other possible company.
post #59 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fastslappy View Post

When are these small direct internet sales companies gonna learn to build in the USA ?

Because consumers wouldn't pay the extra costs. Nobody would buy Emotiva gear if they would build in the US.

But the issue with the 978 is a different one. Outlaw outsourced the design of the processor. By the way, this is no different to what Emotiva does.
post #60 of 121
"Factory? We're Outlaws! We don't need no stinkin' factory!" .....apparently they do need a factory
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