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Outlaw 978 officially dead - Page 4

post #91 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

It very well could be D&M. Although it would be a real slap in the face from D&M as Outlaw has been selling Marantz products. If Outlaw stops selling Marantz products that will be a good indication wink.gif.
Bill

No idea on the topic, but D&M is being redesign from the inside out due to both external and internal factors. So anything that was in the past doesn't effect the future that much if the management feels this a correct path they would take it i doubt history would have any effect on it.

Daniel.
post #92 of 121
They should clean house and fire who ever had a hand in this debacle..... starting with Scott their spin doctor.
post #93 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve. View Post

They should clean house and fire who ever had a hand in this debacle..... starting with Scott their spin doctor.

"They" should start with Peter Tribeman as he is most responsible. Oh I forgot he is the President of the company and I believe he owns it as well wink.gif. So its Scott's fault that the Chinese factory pulled the rug out from under Outlaw and the production of the 978. Where do people come up with this stuff rolleyes.gif.

Bill
post #94 of 121
I'm sorry but every newsletter he writes is full of stories,promises, and lame excuses.... it gets tired after three years.....
post #95 of 121
I used to be a huge fan, having owned a 1050 and a 990 I expected more than promises and vaporware......it's sad.
post #96 of 121
I'm not surprised at all. I love my 990 too, but gave up on Outlaw for a prepro long ago. Ditto for Emo after their UMC-1 mini train wreck.
post #97 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

I think companies like Outlaw and Emotiva announce products like the 978 and XMC-1 way in advance is to get possible prepros buyers to think twice about other products. In other words dangling the proverbial carrot with hopes of better pricing and SQ than other options out there. So then those on the fence will wait for the "soon" to be released prepro to save money and get better SQ. The pricing is normally lower although the talk of improved SQ is open to debate wink.gif.
Bill is right about this subject ,
I feel the ID companies do more harm to themselves when they talk about a coming product , build it up to say it's the "new sliced white bread "
AND then have it turn into Vaporware , That Email from Outlaw was upsetting to me , All he did was have whine fest & blame other people . He never faced up to him having done a very bad business practice by not protecting his exposure to what happened .
I do not feel sorry for Outlaw I feel sorry for their fans who were let down & are now swinging in the wind .
Edited by Fastslappy - 7/21/12 at 11:28am
post #98 of 121
In terms of boutique manufacturers, I think it is fair to say that for modern prepros you should wait until you see the product to believe it. I think a good indicator is that most major receiver manufacturers don't make a prepro version of their receivers. You would think they could just strip out the amps but the market seems too limited.
post #99 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by moparfan View Post

In terms of boutique manufacturers, I think it is fair to say that for modern prepros you should wait until you see the product to believe it. I think a good indicator is that most major receiver manufacturers don't make a prepro version of their receivers. You would think they could just strip out the amps but the market seems too limited.

I agree and that is why I think using an AVR as a prepro is a great option.

Bill
post #100 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by moparfan View Post

In terms of boutique manufacturers, I think it is fair to say that for modern pre-pros you should wait until you see the product to believe it. I think a good indicator is that most major receiver manufacturers don't make a pre-pro version of their receivers. You would think they could just strip out the amps but the market seems too limited.

It's a confusing scenario - CE manufacturers obviously don't consider pre-pros to be worth the effort, so no market is the only conclusion. But then the boutiques keep trying to come up with one. Maybe trying to find a niche not filled? I had every intention of following the 978. I figured by the time it made market, then got the kinks ironed out, I'd be ready for an upgrade and to finally leave AVR as pre-pro behind. Sigh ...
post #101 of 121
As much as I liked the 990 support with software bugs was slow and not an urgent matter to them... it took a while to get it almost right.
post #102 of 121
In the case of Outlaw and Emotiva selling prepros is a logical move as they both sell amps. So why not sell a prepro that is competitive in both features and price to current AVRs to compliment their amps. But both Outlaw and Emotiva have found out first hand how difficult that process is.

Bill
post #103 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

In the case of Outlaw and Emotiva selling pre-pros is a logical move as they both sell amps. So why not sell a prepro that is competitive in both features and price to current AVRs to compliment their amps. But both Outlaw and Emotiva have found out first hand how difficult that process is.
Bill

Yeah, that's a point. Maybe Outlaw should do a full line of speakers (to pair with their amps) like Emo did. I have Emo's old reference LCR and like them quite a bit. Of course, the replacements I thought were supposed to be coming for the old Emo reference aren't to be found last I looked. I feel sorry for these guys.
post #104 of 121
They need to concentrate on the heart of any system, the preamp. Rolling out a pre-pro should be their only priority right now. Not having a receiver hurts them enough, if they don't have a product to pair with their amps they are in big trouble.
post #105 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve. View Post

They need to concentrate on the heart of any system, the preamp. Rolling out a pre-pro should be their only priority right now. Not having a receiver hurts them enough, if they don't have a product to pair with their amps they are in big trouble.

Depends on their finances and such I guess. Amps and speakers kind of go together. At Emo, I don't think it was an accident that their reference speaker used sealed woofers (so they could sell you a sub) and that they're a 4 ohm, 86 db speaker (so you'd get an amp.) Of course, there are tons of ID speakers out there, but competing against that vs. competing against CEs puts you in a pretty tenuous position. I did sense some panic in that email though - almost begging people to wait for the low cost pp.
post #106 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterK View Post

Have not heard of a 4313 model. All info I can find says the new top model witll be the 4520 in the Denon series.
Sure am hoping it is a Japanese made product as I have been waiting to replace my old receiver.
Wonder where the new Pioneer Elite SC-68 is made?
Edit - - I see on the back panel of the brochure it is made in Malaysia so is not Chinese. See the same label on the Integras.

Hello,
The AVR-4313 has been discussed about for some time around here. The scuttlebutt was that there was going to be an AVR-4312, but the Earthquake that devastated the North of Japan caused it not to be built. And I could not agree more about AVR's being Made in Japan is a thing of the past. The market is too cutthroat to support the much higher Labor Costs of manufacturing in Japan.

Here are some Posts from here discussing it:
From JDSmoothie: "The new Denon 4313CI will be replacing both the 4311CI and the 4810CI and will be Denon's new flagship model going forward. It is supposed to include Audyssey's new LFC feature, although more information likely won't be available until April when the other XX13 model information is released.

As this Post was from 2011, it seems the nomenclature changed from 4313 to AVR-4520CI
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1420601/denon-4520-specs
Avland.co.uk has been reasonably on target about future models, but have missed on a few in the past. It makes more sense to name it the 4520 as it replaces both the 4311 and 4810 and then of course can price it accordingly.
AD
post #107 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan1 View Post

Hear! Hear!
Without Trinnov Optimizer, Outlaw's product had a much diminished reason for being and faced much stiffer competition from mass market boxes with Audyssey.
Trinnov is Da Bomb, IMO, and I hope someone will bring a new model with it to market, hopefully in a smaller, lighter, less finicky package than the R-972. Class D and a slim profile would be perfect smile.gif
Just a suggestion to Outlaw.... biggrin.gif
Otherwise, I don't know what I am going to do if my R-972 dies.

Down the road Trinnov is the only thing that would attract me to Outlaw. It was the only thing that made their prepro distinctive; Audyssey is common place. Considering going with the R-972, but other than the Trinnov, it doesn't have XLR connections & seems somewhat dated. I don't need the amp section as I already have a Emotiva MPS-2 which I want to use to drive some Maggies to replace my Phase tech speakers. Think I'll wait to see the reviews on the XCM-1.
post #108 of 121
That e-mail was more than panic...it screamed of desperation. They have lost their way, their original business model was unique and so was their position in the market place. I was one of the biggest fanboys ever. The 1050 was my first HT receiver and it truly represented value. They had bravado about their ID model....they "don't need no stinkin factory", but did they really think they would have no ID competition? Unfortunately for them the internet caught up to them fast. Not only do they face ID competition but I can order any conventional brand competitor at a better price than I ever could before, and have the latest technology. It seems like for the past three or four years they are just resellers of other people's wares. Marantz and Onkyo, I get that, there's no preamp for years so you need something, right? Sure their amps are nice( I still have a 7125 and it's a great amp), but I can get a genuine ATI amp with a seven year warranty for not that much more. Cue ????? are you serious? Vudu???? really? Their subs are OK, I had an LFM 1 and it was decent but it was cheaply made. It developed a buzz that they could not fix for me so I sold it... I stopped drinking the Kool Aid after that and bought McCormack separates and a REL sub and never looked back. They need to rethink their core demographic and do something fast if they want to be around any length of time. C'mon Outlaws step it up! And I'm not talking about a budget pre with stripped features, I won't even consider a pre-pro unless it has everything an entry level receiver has plus superior sound quality. Like many others that were waiting on the 978 I can't wait any longer....I'm buying an Anthem 300.
post #109 of 121
Good perspective on the company there. I sniffed the koolaid with a 7125 but it developed a noisy channel after just a few months and it wasn't worth it to me to have it fixed. Still have a nice spare 6 channel amp though smile.gif Maybe I could have gotten them to send me a new one plus a pre-paid mailer, but whatever.

McCormack? As in Steve? I bought his lab prototype sub ages ago. Vandersteen active low pass with passive mono high passes, the Vandersteen thing of dual drivers mounted face to face and opposite phase. Still miss it.
post #110 of 121
Your amp had a defective channel after only a few months and you didn't get it fixed under warranty?

At any rate, it sounds like some are feeling like a woman scorned over this. It's funny how we get so emotionally wound up over our gear, but I guess for many of us it makes up a big part of our lives in one way or another. Personally I still want to know which manufacturer and or Chinese factory was responsible for this so I can boycott them! BTW, I'll disclose that I have an Outlaw 7125 that's been flawless.
Edited by runnin' - 7/22/12 at 9:10am
post #111 of 121
Steve McCormack sold his company to Conrad Johnson a while back and stayed on as a consultant to design McCormack Audio. The newer McComack amps are built in the Conrad Johnson factory here in the USA.
post #112 of 121
Just a comment on MCode from post 55,

I don't think he has a clue on this. If he knows he needs to come forth or just shut up.
post #113 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by VTGOLFER View Post

Just a comment on MCode from post 55,
I don't think he has a clue on this. If he knows he needs to come forth or just shut up.

I would have to agree with you. I just don't see the need to post cryptic messages that everyone is supposed to figure out. If you have the information post it but don't play the "I have the information but I'm not giving it out" BS.

Bill
post #114 of 121
Outlaw needs to partner up with Oppo. They don't make preamps/receivers so maybe a combined effort with Outlaw would bring some unique advantages.
post #115 of 121
Why in the world would OPPO want to do that? They have a solid track record of beta testing and releasing products in a timely manner. I think Peter T needs to do a better job of courting prospective ODMs..... No one in their right mind would joint venture after three failed launches. In a row...... Good luck to them though, they have their work cut out for them. I was one of their biggest fans, but how long can you hang on with disappointment after disappointment ?
post #116 of 121
Personally I think Oppo could handle building a prepro. But then they'd want to market and sell it via the ID market, and guess who a competitor would be? Outlaw, among others. The only possibility of a Outlaw/Oppo marriage would be if they entered into an agreement for Oppo to build a platform for Outlaw but that would no doubt stretch Oppo's organization quite a bit as they are probably developing their next generation players to be released 2 years from now or so. It doesn't seem likely, therefore.

Observing how long it took Outlaw to get the 978 to almost production, I'd suspect they are at least 2 years out from releasing a flagship prepro, though that's just a guess. It's too bad, they've been great for the marketplace.
post #117 of 121
What's not great for the market is ID companies that promise the world and don't deliver. I can't tell you how many times I wanted to get a new prepro or receiver while waiting for something from Emo or Outlaw. I'm glad I didn't buy a UMC 1 that never got fixed and is buggy. Did outlaw do the right thing by pulling the plug on the 997 ? Of course they did. How else do you save face when it looks like a turd? But enough is enough ! Enough vaporware, enough "press releases", enough photoshop/cadcam renderings.... enough excuses please !!! I don't want a three page essay on how and why you failed.... how 'bout just delivering a prepro that I can afford and that will wow me when I sit down to watch a movie. Is that too much to ask ? Emo has been talking about the XMC for almost as long, will we even see it anytime soon?
post #118 of 121
These ID companies have skinny margins out of necessity. The only way to generate revenue when a company has razor thin margins is volume. I'm thinking pre-pros and amps aren't flying off the shelves like they did in 2005. No revenue means having to try and R&D on the cheap. If consumers aren't able/willing to pony up with some dollars for the product they want, ID companies can't compete outside of their core competencies.

If blame is to be placed; it ultimately should fall on senior mgmt. imo for not putting money into the company in a deep meaningful way prior to the recession and for being taken by surprise by the recession.

I know too many CEO’s who were cutting themselves fat checks and buying huge houses when they should’ve been investing in their baby back in the days of fast flowing money.

Just my .02.
post #119 of 121
I remember when Outlaw was seen as a cool and hip company that offered tremendous value products. Now I don't see what real value they offer at all.

Sent from my SCH-R530U using Tapatalk 2
post #120 of 121
I think they still offer great value products, it's just that they changed the landscape. They were one of the few companies that offered subs through an ID model. Now many more companies do this. Ditto for the multi-channel amplifiers, they changed the landscape here too. I've known about them for a decade or so but just bought my first Outlaw product last March, the 7125. It's a great amp, and improved the sound quality of my theater system. Perhaps what they do is now seem as par for the course instead of a hole-in-one, but it's still a tremendous value over traditional retail.

As for the processor problem, just about every smaller company has had major headaches bringing one to market since HDMI came to town. It seems like only the big boys had pockets deep enought to side step problems that Emotiva, Parasound, Outlaw, etc, experienced.
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